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  1. #21
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    It seems like another game that is heavilly loot driven has learned that giving people what they "want" too quickly can be bad for the long term health of the game (replaying it).

    "The Diablo 3 auction house is being sent to the nether realm on March 18, 2014.

    "It became increasingly clear that despite the benefits of the AH system and the fact that many players around the world use it, it ultimately undermines Diablo's core game play: kill monsters to get cool loot," Blizzard Production Director John Hight writes. "With that in mind, we want to let everyone know that we've decided to remove the gold and real-money auction house system from Diablo 3." (Sourced from Joystick)


    It does seem they've learned a lesson about satiating their player base with easy to buy loot, and dropping the carrot from their re-play equation.

    Now IMO they are going to the opposite extreme, as MMO's have shown a mixture of 75-80 percent Auctionable loot with 25% bound loot can achieve a thriving balance of re-playability (aka grind). DDO used to have this balance, many MMO's have it or something close to an "equilibrium" where players are willing to keep playing stuff 20 or 30 times.

    Obviously their needs to be some quotient of grind in a game, otherwise people get bored and pack it in a few weeks later. Ala Epic Giant Hold, and especially this newest pack which has even less grind, and was less popular than eGH in terms of player return activity.

    How much is enough grind is open to question. and I am certainly not for eliminating DDO's AH, but going back to the system where bound gear was not all auctionable/tradable seems like a sensible step in the direction of stopping the massive attrition DDO has experienced over the last year. BTW that attrition? A near 50% drop in player activity since MOTU? It corresponds exactly to the first auctionable/tradable powerful bound loot in new packs...
    Aww, those poor gold dupers and gold sellers, what are they going to do now?

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  2. #22
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    D3's RMAH also suffered from a colossal exploit that crashed the economy, making it such that people could buy currency for pennies on the dollar and gear up an entire toon for the highest difficulty for roughly 20 bucks.

    But yes, the success of MMOs is based off the age-old principle of "Skinner's Box" where you draw players in with high rewards at the beginning and taper it off gradually, so that after a while they are grinding for days, weeks, and months and making very little progress but it is still enough to keep them satisfied. If you give away the prize too easily, people quit because the "finish line" is too near. People who play MMORPGs need goals to keep them interested-- that is why having the best loot be bound on acquire is really the best thing for the game.

    Lord of Blades was a great example of how to do things-- the best part of the loot is at Tiers 1 and 2, which is relatively easy to obtain. The hardest part by far was the T3, and it only provided a moderate boost to the strength of the item. But, ELOB was so challenging that players strove to complete it because it was an achievement. It was a raid that gave rewards to both the semi-casual players AND the elite players. It's a shame that when they raised the level cap, they paid no mind at all to the Alchemical Items, making LOB pointless to run.
    Last edited by djl; 09-18-2013 at 12:05 PM.

  3. #23
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post

    You might not LIKE grind and you might be happy with buying EE loot on the AH, but much like you might be HAPPY to eat a whole box of cookies when you were a kid, sometimes whats actually best for you is NOT what you want.

    I dont think there is a lot to discuss here. I doubt many ppl think the rmah/tradeable epic loot are good for the game, other than as a quick money grab.

    And nobody could reasonably expect turbine to eliminate it. Its a little late for that.

    As for low lfms, i agree that being able to buy named loot contributes, but its a drop in the bucket. File it with the other thousand reasons

  4. #24
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    The nearly non existent number of raid LFM's lately is due to most of us being a little (justifiably) paranoid about not getting completions counted in our new and improved "for the future if we decide to make something with it" Heroic/Epic raid counter system.

    We weren't running raids much before, but now it's fallen off the bottom of the chart.
    Man, glad I am not on your server.

    Ever think of moving to one with a more active Raid scene?

    If not, and you were not running many raids as it was before and now more are following your lead, one thing can change that. You're not going to like it though.

    Run more Raids if that is what you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Man, glad I am not on your server.

    Ever think of moving to one with a more active Raid scene?
    .
    But, We're on your server.....

  6. #26
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Im glad Im starting to see other people recognize this situation for what it is as well as commenting that there needs to be "some grind" in the game to keep people around. When I was saying the game would get to this point two years ago the threads got trolled into the pavement by strawman argumentation of those who wished to turn it into a personal discussion about how anyone saying this is just jealous of how others get their loot. Trust me, Im not jealous, nor is anyone else, that many people now play a different game 90% of the time and only come back right after significant content updates to obtain the new loot as quickly as possible (which is now hilariously fast, gone to plaid) before they attrite off to some other game again for most of the time between content updates. Yes, DDO can learn from the errors of other MMOs, but first youll have to get around the blind defense that DDO is not those other games, so what happened in those other games is supposedly irrelevant - even though objective analysis of the situation clearly shows that DDO is reaching for more and more of the same demographic of folks who play those other irrelevant games, which makes them perfectly relevant. .

    Good luck.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #27
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Man, glad I am not on your server.

    Ever think of moving to one with a more active Raid scene?

    If not, and you were not running many raids as it was before and now more are following your lead, one thing can change that. You're not going to like it though.

    Run more Raids if that is what you want.
    You act like there are many raids being run on Sarlona--- there are not. There are two groups of people who run raids consistently; anybody who does not know people in either of those groups is SOL. Not even Shroud gets much exposure anymore.

  8. #28
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    Saying that Turbine could learn a few things isn't patting Blizzard on the back. It's a testament to how truly horrible Turbine handles some things.
    You are saying that Turbine could so better and using Blizzard as the model. All I’m saying is that Blizzard is really not a model for this based on some pretty intense anger by their fanbase. From what I’ve read, they REALLY ****ed off a lot of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I agree that Blizzard strung people on forever while D3 was in development. Turbine did the same thing albeit to a lessor extent with their SOON campaign. But in regards to communication with the community, Blizzard eclipses Turbine.
    Stringing your fans along for years is not what I’d call a model of “communication.” It’s like having a date with someone who uses you for tickets to a show, and then strings you along for months afterwards because he/she is either a) hoping for another free trip to some place expensive, or b) doesn’t have the fortitude to say that “it’s me, not you.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    However to compare Blizzard and Turbine point by point is a little unfair. In terms of shear capitol they can spend, Blizzard is the Yankee's or Red Sox. Turbine is the junior varsity baseball team from the Midwest holding weekend car washes.
    You know, as much as I bash the people who make DDO, I will say this: it has probably kept me more entertained than any other game I have ever played. I thought Blizzard genuinely borked Diablo II by breaking from their original concept, as the original had SO MUCH potential to be what DDO is today. My wife and I played together in that game almost religiously (and of course, before we had kids). Diablo II really didn’t have the same appeal. And having to re-run the same stuff with a awesomesauce toon was actually pretty boring for 90% of the game. After running through once, there was ZERO inclination to run it again – random mazes or no.

    DDO doesn’t have that problem. And with the complexity of character creation I get what I liked in Diablo I, with lots of content to run stuff on.

    Too bad that Turbine has seen fit to doink people who pay monthly for content so they can squeeze more money out of them.

    And too bad that they don’t tend to QA as much and as often as other offerings. From what I hear and see of what is out there, DDO is rather unique. Too bad they are soiling the bed with not keeping their product as bug free as they can.

    I mean, seriously: how hard would it be to fix that stupid screen when you leave an airship?

    (The answer is: not that hard.)

  9. #29
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    There are a number of reasons that DDO is "failing" right now. The shard exchange might even be a small part of the combined mound of fail we've been seeing lately. Here's how I see it

    No endgame - If you have your CitW loot and all the coms you need, raiding is effectively dead for you. Old raids offer outdated (for the most part) loot and little incentive to grind as tomes are now more abundant in loot gen and they destroyed +5 tomes (either a bug or WAI, no response yet)

    No real reason to group - LFM listings are down and even some guilds are turning into a collection of solo players. This isn't necessarily a "bad" thing, but it is bad for a certain % of the population so it is an issue. Dungeon scaling combined with effective and even superior solo builds like blitz encourage solo runs. The advantage to grouping is at an all time low for both leveling up content and endgame. The lack of a compelling reason to raid, which traditionally is run by more players due to mechanics, isn't doing anything to help.

    The newest expansion is weak in many areas - The quests really aren't that bad, but certain elements are a turn off. Some loot is bad and some is just plain insulting (Magistrate's Scepter). There are a few stand out pieces, but nothing on par with what Gianthold offered. Perhaps we were spoiled, or perhaps the loot design team really had no clue. The desire to run EE (the only difficulty where bringing more members makes much sense from a scaling standpoint) is minimal. Why run difficult content for loot we don't want. Running it for challenge alone is only fun for so long. We need a multi targetted approach to content which brings me to...

    Poor xp in new content - The xp is at best average. My leveling routine right now is 2x EVoN3 daily then whatever else I feel like doing. If I'm running Wheloon or Stormhorns, it's not for xp and it's not for loot. It might have been for the saga rewards, but that's not an option right now. Gianthold offers better xp and a higher percentage of useful named loot than Shadowfell.

    U19 lootgen disaster and tome debacle - Some will say the new lootgen if overpowered. They are right, but only to a small degree. New lootgen clothes and jewelry has the potential to be quite good with +10's and +11's galore, but this may be at least partly because there has been a stingy stranglehold on higher tier bonuses like protection, resistance, armor and natural armor bonuses. The +10 and +11 stats are a bit high, but are actually the cause of a problem rather than a solution to it. Simply by existing, they obsolete older loot gen and named loot. That's not a good thing. We never really expected tham and would have been fine with +8's with the occasional +9 had we not known any better. I'm not touching deadly with a 10' pole. Removing any chance at +4 to +5 tome upgrades was the nail in the coffin for lootgen farmers. Every non caster lootgen weapon and every lootgen armor is now 99.99% useless due to implementing a half finished system that removed many useful affixes. I have no faith they'll ever come back and fix what they broke (or even admit that anything is wrong with the new lootgen system at all), but I'll be very pleasantly surprised if it does happen.

    ASAH - To some people this may matter, but I just ignore it as a negative effect. I'm not spending 500+ shards on items there though others seem quite happy to spend that. The effect it has between the haves and have nots is minimal. It allows power gamers the chance to sell things to people with way more $ than sense. Anyone in the middle is mostly unaffected and can go about using it for small sales and purchases here or there.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 09-18-2013 at 12:15 PM.
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  10. #30
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    And then they flipped the pc the bird and went for the money pot on console.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  11. #31

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    It's possible that the change to random loot was a matter to add seemsless upgradeability (what comes after acid blast, acid mega burst?) and to easily expand with levels. It also cleaned up what they considered 'errors' (and what players considered good twink loot). But they also blew away lots of permutations and added an incredible amount of over powered sameness. On top of that they tried to add a philosophical aspect to named loot - like a +1 (?????) longsword, 'cause you know - it's not the weapon - it's the master.

    I just don't know what happened between EGH and this xpack. It's such a world of difference.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Man, glad I am not on your server.

    Ever think of moving to one with a more active Raid scene?

    If not, and you were not running many raids as it was before and now more are following your lead, one thing can change that. You're not going to like it though.

    Run more Raids if that is what you want.
    Yes we all know it's never Turbine's problem and indeed there is no problem with LFM's at all, or perhaps it's the players that are the problem, if there is any problem that is... Which there isn't!. We all are very clear that you and one other person on the forum thinks nothing is wrong. Now if you don't mind I'm going to continue on as though you hadn't posted anything...
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Man this line gets really tiresome... *sigh* okay look stepping beyond the "I challenge them to prove me wrong" aspect, its JUST NOT TRUE that they don't change things, based on feedback. You don't have to look far:

    Protector tree
    Warpriest
    New Sorc tree
    Bringing in a LOTRO dev to help make more different loot for the "expansion"
    Adding a confirmation dialog to asteral shard loot re-rolls
    The Epic TR announcement debacle

    and those are just the ones off the top of my head as most recent.

    Clearly there is some feedback based change possible. Fatalistic attitudes and reverse psychology "prove me wrong" stuff not withstanding.
    I'm wasn't talking about minute aspects of certain implementations. I agree that they tweak things based on feedback. But if you re-read what I wrote I'm not talking about tweaks. I'm talking about system changes vs long term health of the game. IE the ASAH, Skill Point revamp, itemization changes. Many of these sweeping changes received a majority of negative feedback (irregardless if you agree or disagree). The Epic TR change is welcomed but they really had no choice once they saw the feedback. And I believe Turbine is in a position where even if they decide later on that these changed were for the worse, it will be unfeasible to change them as it would simply cost too much. IE "all in".

    If you disagree, that's ok. But don't' diminish my opinion because you don't agree.

    If you choose to read into what I say and don't like your own interpretation, that's on you. If you categorically don't like what I write or can't stand my opinion, put me on your ignore list.

  14. #34
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Yes we all know it's never Turbine's problem and indeed there is no problem with LFM's at all, or perhaps it's the players that are the problem, if there is any problem that is... Which there isn't!. We all are very clear that you and one other person on the forum thinks nothing is wrong. Now if you don't mind I'm going to continue on as though you hadn't posted anything...
    There is a middle ground between nothing being wrong and everything being wrong, you know. Unfortunately you can only find it in game, not on the forums.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  15. #35
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    EE GH was basically heroic GH roid-raging, and with a new, relatively unimaginative raid (FoT).
    You say that like it's a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Yeah, it’s hard.

    Yeah, it’s got decent loot.
    It's better than hard, laggy, and bad loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    If this is a “win” then we can expect to see people fawning praise over epic “Stopping the Sauhagin”in the very near future. At least the bucket-o-fail-made-to-screw-VIPs xpack is something new. And at least as a VIP I’m getting bent over the couch as opposed to that cold, wooden desk.
    The numbers from DDO Oracle show DDO getting a much bigger bump that lasted longer. It got a better reception than this "expansion."

  16. #36
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I'm wasn't talking about minute aspects of certain implementations. I agree that they tweak things based on feedback. But if you re-read what I wrote I'm not talking about tweaks. I'm talking about system changes vs long term health of the game. IE the ASAH, Skill Point revamp, itemization changes. Many of these sweeping changes received a majority of negative feedback (irregardless if you agree or disagree). The Epic TR change is welcomed but they really had no choice once they saw the feedback. And I believe Turbine is in a position where even if they decide later on that these changed were for the worse, it will be unfeasible to change them as it would simply cost too much. IE "all in".

    If you disagree, that's ok. But don't' diminish my opinion because you don't agree.

    If you choose to read into what I say and don't like your own interpretation, that's on you. If you categorically don't like what I write or can't stand my opinion, put me on your ignore list.
    What cooks my noodle is why they can't just "revert" the changes to the way raid completions are handled. I mean, that seems like the easiest and best solution; instead, they are ignoring the problem hoping eventually we'll all accept it and go away. Well, we will. But, it won't to go login to DDO. It'll be to a different game.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    It seems like another game that is heavilly loot driven has learned that giving people what they "want" too quickly can be bad for the long term health of the game (replaying it).

    "The Diablo 3 auction house is being sent to the nether realm on March 18, 2014.

    "It became increasingly clear that despite the benefits of the AH system and the fact that many players around the world use it, it ultimately undermines Diablo's core game play: kill monsters to get cool loot," Blizzard Production Director John Hight writes. "With that in mind, we want to let everyone know that we've decided to remove the gold and real-money auction house system from Diablo 3." (Sourced from Joystick)


    It does seem they've learned a lesson about satiating their player base with easy to buy loot, and dropping the carrot from their re-play equation.

    Now IMO they are going to the opposite extreme, as MMO's have shown a mixture of 75-80 percent Auctionable loot with 25% bound loot can achieve a thriving balance of re-playability (aka grind). DDO used to have this balance, many MMO's have it or something close to an "equilibrium" where players are willing to keep playing stuff 20 or 30 times.

    Obviously their needs to be some quotient of grind in a game, otherwise people get bored and pack it in a few weeks later. Ala Epic Giant Hold, and especially this newest pack which has even less grind, and was less popular than eGH in terms of player return activity.

    How much is enough grind is open to question. and I am certainly not for eliminating DDO's AH, but going back to the system where bound gear was not all auctionable/tradable seems like a sensible step in the direction of stopping the massive attrition DDO has experienced over the last year. BTW that attrition? A near 50% drop in player activity since MOTU? It corresponds exactly to the first auctionable/tradable powerful bound loot in new packs...
    It's clear DDO is moving away from a gear-centric game designed around endlessly grinding a couple of quests. What the result will be is anyone's guess. That being said, if DDO planned to remain a game where you're meant to level your toon and grind the same three quests for the rest of eternity, then yes, removing the ability to buy such loot would be a great idea. Now, I don't see how it matters.

  18. #38
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Man, glad I am not on your server.

    Ever think of moving to one with a more active Raid scene?
    Which server has a non-dead raid scene? I would consider it.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    What cooks my noodle is why they can't just "revert" the changes to the way raid completions are handled. I mean, that seems like the easiest and best solution; instead, they are ignoring the problem hoping eventually we'll all accept it and go away. Well, we will. But, it won't to go login to DDO. It'll be to a different game.
    Oh yes, I cant believe I left that out. Even this has me stumped as to why and then the deafening silence after their post about it "WAI".

  20. #40
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Bringing in a LOTRO dev to help make more different loot for the "expansion"
    You mean the guy that was working on lotro, when end game was COMPLETEY DESTROYED?
    Have you seen latest lotro expansion?

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