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  1. #1
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    Default Can DDO learn from Diablo III? Bound loot on the AH, lack of Grind and empty LFM's

    It seems like another game that is heavilly loot driven has learned that giving people what they "want" too quickly can be bad for the long term health of the game (replaying it).

    "The Diablo 3 auction house is being sent to the nether realm on March 18, 2014.

    "It became increasingly clear that despite the benefits of the AH system and the fact that many players around the world use it, it ultimately undermines Diablo's core game play: kill monsters to get cool loot," Blizzard Production Director John Hight writes. "With that in mind, we want to let everyone know that we've decided to remove the gold and real-money auction house system from Diablo 3." (Sourced from Joystick)


    It does seem they've learned a lesson about satiating their player base with easy to buy loot, and dropping the carrot from their re-play equation.

    Now IMO they are going to the opposite extreme, as MMO's have shown a mixture of 75-80 percent Auctionable loot with 25% bound loot can achieve a thriving balance of re-playability (aka grind). DDO used to have this balance, many MMO's have it or something close to an "equilibrium" where players are willing to keep playing stuff 20 or 30 times.

    Obviously their needs to be some quotient of grind in a game, otherwise people get bored and pack it in a few weeks later. Ala Epic Giant Hold, and especially this newest pack which has even less grind, and was less popular than eGH in terms of player return activity.

    How much is enough grind is open to question. and I am certainly not for eliminating DDO's AH, but going back to the system where bound gear was not all auctionable/tradable seems like a sensible step in the direction of stopping the massive attrition DDO has experienced over the last year. BTW that attrition? A near 50% drop in player activity since MOTU? It corresponds exactly to the first auctionable/tradable powerful bound loot in new packs...
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Will never happen here. Random is the new "black."

  3. #3
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Obviously their needs to be some quotient of grind in a game, otherwise people get bored and pack it in a few weeks later. Ala Epic Giant Hold, and especially this newest pack which has even less grind, and was less popular than eGH in terms of player return activity.
    Dude . . . EE GH was more popular because it was a better pack than this 'expansion.' The quests were better, it had a raid, it didn't have insanely large and boring explorer areas, it didn't have that idiotic "purple haze" and double-spawns causing instant red-alert.

    Yes, Shadofell has mostly terrible loot but the lack if grind isn't the reason it's a big bucket of fail.

  4. #4
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Will never happen here. Random is the new "black."
    I think using ED twists in heroic is the old college heroin-smuggling girlfriend.

    Who is Crazy Eyes?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  5. #5
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Dude . . . EE GH was more popular because it was a better pack than this 'expansion.' The quests were better, it had a raid, it didn't have insanely large and boring explorer areas, it didn't have that idiotic "purple haze" and double-spawns causing instant red-alert.

    Yes, Shadofell has mostly terrible loot but the lack if grind isn't the reason it's a big bucket of fail.
    I dont consider it a fail. I think it would be better if people didnt post their opinions as the opnion of everybody else as well, since they very rarely are that. It rather detracts from, than reinforces, the strength of the argument. (well, in my eyes at least).
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  6. #6
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I dont consider it a fail. I think it would be better if people didnt post their opinions as the opnion of everybody else as well, since they very rarely are that. It rather detracts from, than reinforces, the strength of the argument. (well, in my eyes at least).
    Not posting your opinion as fact is for the weak.

  7. #7
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Not posting your opinion as fact is for the weak.
    The weak cant lift their opinion alone, se i.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Will never happen here. Random is the new "black."
    Random gen loot in highest lv chests is where it's at now. Really did lower the number of raid lfms lately that I see. I check the panel constantly.

  9. #9
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    In my personal opinion, the DDO team could learn a lot from looking at how Blizzards D3 team handles things. Developer Blogs, Q&A's, etc.

    However to stay on topic:

    It's interesting to see that Blizzard believes it's makes better business sense to concentrate on the long term health of their game instead of the relative short term gains from their RMAH. Turbine as decided that the opposite is true in their case. That said, D3 is much more "Loot driven" than DDO is. Well, it's supposed to be. DDO seems to want to be more quest/story driven but the story is becoming more fragmented as time goes on (but in all fairness it become exponentially harder to make it cohesive and fluid as time goes on and content is added). The current itemization change seems to point to the fact that Turbine isn't willing or wanting to spend future money on loot development.

    Problem is, Turbine has gone 'all in' with the current direction they have chosen and it will be all but impossible/unfeasible for them to change direction. For better or for worse, we are more than likely stuck with what we have as Turbine is committed to doing what they want irregardless of what anyone here has to say.

  10. #10
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    Speaking solely on the issue of the new btcoe vs old bta named loot system, i hate the new system. I liked having to work a little harder, but being able to reuse the items over my other toons.

    Id love to see them scrap the shard exchange and return to the old system but thats not gonna happen. The beancounters are obviously trying to squeeze a little more juice and they always win. Even if they kill the golden goose

  11. #11
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kned225 View Post
    Speaking solely on the issue of the new btcoe vs old bta named loot system, i hate the new system. I liked having to work a little harder, but being able to reuse the items over my other toons.

    Id love to see them scrap the shard exchange and return to the old system but thats not gonna happen. The beancounters are obviously trying to squeeze a little more juice and they always win. Even if they kill the golden goose
    I like BOTH, but for different items. Like the old earslug, etc.

    It's ok to have a mix instead of swinging the entire needle one way or the other each update.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  12. #12
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    In my personal opinion, the DDO team could learn a lot from looking at how Blizzards D3 team handles things. Developer Blogs, Q&A's, etc.

    However to stay on topic:

    It's interesting to see that Blizzard believes it's makes better business sense to concentrate on the long term health of their game instead of the relative short term gains from their RMAH. Turbine as decided that the opposite is true in their case. That said, D3 is much more "Loot driven" than DDO is. Well, it's supposed to be. DDO seems to want to be more quest/story driven but the story is becoming more fragmented as time goes on (but in all fairness it become exponentially harder to make it cohesive and fluid as time goes on and content is added). The current itemization change seems to point to the fact that Turbine isn't willing or wanting to spend future money on loot development.

    Problem is, Turbine has gone 'all in' with the current direction they have chosen and it will be all but impossible/unfeasible for them to change direction. For better or for worse, we are more than likely stuck with what we have as Turbine is committed to doing what they want irregardless of what anyone here has to say.

    This ignores a lot of pre-release fan angst that was building to tidal-wave proportions due to the continuous teasing and delays when it came to Diablo III. I remember reading something where a lot of fans were REALLY bent out of shape over the fact that Blizzard hinted at a release of III, and then it never appeared. So I wouldn’t go patting them on the back for their fine work given some of the history of that game.

  13. #13
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    If you guys are trying to get Cordy to shut my thread down as fast as possible you're doing a good job at it

    Seriously back on topic, I'm asking nicely.

    DDO's current direction of "epic gear is sellable" is the same direction that's making Diablo do major surgery. And it's pretty clear from a year of DDOracle graphs that the player base is bleeding out... There are clearly more than just "loot is buyable" as reasons for this, but a lack of LFM's is due in large part to no one being motivated to run some quests, they aren't motivated because the items can be purchased.

    Once again last night a VON5-6 filled late night within 15 minutes, eSoS is all the proof anyone needs that LOOT=MOTIVATION=LFM's + LOW DROP CHANCE=GRIND=REPLAY=LFM's.

    You might not LIKE grind and you might be happy with buying EE loot on the AH, but much like you might be HAPPY to eat a whole box of cookies when you were a kid, sometimes whats actually best for you is NOT what you want.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubbinns View Post
    Random gen loot in highest lv chests is where it's at now. Really did lower the number of raid lfms lately that I see. I check the panel constantly.
    The nearly non existent number of raid LFM's lately is due to most of us being a little (justifiably) paranoid about not getting completions counted in our new and improved "for the future if we decide to make something with it" Heroic/Epic raid counter system.

    We weren't running raids much before, but now it's fallen off the bottom of the chart.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  15. #15
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Dude . . . EE GH was more popular because it was a better pack than this 'expansion.' The quests were better, it had a raid, it didn't have insanely large and boring explorer areas, it didn't have that idiotic "purple haze" and double-spawns causing instant red-alert.

    Yes, Shadofell has mostly terrible loot but the lack if grind isn't the reason it's a big bucket of fail.
    EE GH was basically heroic GH roid-raging, and with a new, relatively unimaginative raid (FoT).

    Yeah, it’s hard.

    Yeah, it’s got decent loot.

    And yeah I ALREADY ran 90% of it into the ground while I was leveling to epic…and now I get to basically pound the same trails again in epic. Yawn. Gee, I’m so getting my money’s worth…

    If this is a “win” then we can expect to see people fawning praise over epic “Stopping the Sauhagin”in the very near future. At least the bucket-o-fail-made-to-screw-VIPs xpack is something new. And at least as a VIP I’m getting bent over the couch as opposed to that cold, wooden desk.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    Problem is, Turbine has gone 'all in' with the current direction they have chosen and it will be all but impossible/unfeasible for them to change direction. For better or for worse, we are more than likely stuck with what we have as Turbine is committed to doing what they want irregardless of what anyone here has to say.
    Man this line gets really tiresome... *sigh* okay look stepping beyond the "I challenge them to prove me wrong" aspect, its JUST NOT TRUE that they don't change things, based on feedback. You don't have to look far:

    Protector tree
    Warpriest
    New Sorc tree
    Bringing in a LOTRO dev to help make more different loot for the "expansion"
    Adding a confirmation dialog to asteral shard loot re-rolls
    The Epic TR announcement debacle

    and those are just the ones off the top of my head as most recent.

    Clearly there is some feedback based change possible. Fatalistic attitudes and reverse psychology "prove me wrong" stuff not withstanding.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    The nearly non existent number of raid LFM's lately is due to most of us being a little (justifiably) paranoid about not getting completions counted in our new and improved "for the future if we decide to make something with it" Heroic/Epic raid counter system.

    We weren't running raids much before, but now it's fallen off the bottom of the chart.
    Yeah that too. I'm positive that has more to do with it than anything. I remember just few months ago around April/May. I could buy 40~ timers and raid all day and night-mostly- every day. Getting to those 20th completions became a lot slower since then

  18. #18
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Look at the lfm. Look at guild/alliance channels. Listen to what people say in groups. Look at the AH/P2WAH for named loot and see what the majority of the loot is being listed for.

    People like Underdark and EGH. The loot is overall the BIS, still popular and wanted, but random loot is stepping on their toes. 2 raids that are played out at this point and nothing fresh or more options to choose from. Lfms list ED grind in Eberron and Underdark, not Wheloon. Catering to certain types of players so they can be in the same league as anyone else is dangerous for DDO. People are shortsighted and can't see what kind of an affect it will have on others and eventually themselves down the road. Make things too easy to acquire, easy to skip playing the game and just buy it from the store or P2WAH and there is overall less motivation, customer entitlement and less people playing which makes others frustrated eventually leaving the game, playing less or cautious spending money on a game they might think is dying. I call this whole thing "connect the dots".

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    This ignores a lot of pre-release fan angst that was building to tidal-wave proportions due to the continuous teasing and delays when it came to Diablo III. I remember reading something where a lot of fans were REALLY bent out of shape over the fact that Blizzard hinted at a release of III, and then it never appeared. So I wouldn’t go patting them on the back for their fine work given some of the history of that game.
    Saying that Turbine could learn a few things isn't patting Blizzard on the back. It's a testament to how truly horrible Turbine handles some things. I agree that Blizzard strung people on forever while D3 was in development. Turbine did the same thing albeit to a lessor extent with their SOON campaign. But in regards to communication with the community, Blizzard eclipses Turbine.

    However to compare Blizzard and Turbine point by point is a little unfair. In terms of shear capitol they can spend, Blizzard is the Yankee's or Red Sox. Turbine is the junior varsity baseball team from the Midwest holding weekend car washes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Lfms list ED grind in Eberron and Underdark, not Wheloon.
    For me this is on point. I ran the new quests once, then did all my leveling outside the new Xpack in MotU and Eberron. It was easier and much more fun for me.
    Last edited by Drwaz99; 09-18-2013 at 11:56 AM.

  20. #20
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Man this line gets really tiresome... *sigh* okay look stepping beyond the "I challenge them to prove me wrong" aspect, its JUST NOT TRUE that they don't change things, based on feedback. You don't have to look far:


    Adding a confirmation dialog to asteral shard loot re-rolls
    Technically speaking, Turbine claimed that this was not WAI, and was in the process of being fixed.

    It is what they said. Whether it is true or not, is anyone's guess.

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