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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    Works like this:

    1 attack always
    +1 attack if Shuriken Expertise procs
    +1 attack if Ninja Spy II procs
    +1 attack if Double shot procs
    + more attacks with ten thousand stars depending on WIS

    So up to 4 attacks without ten thousand stars and even more attacks plus higher attack speed with ten thousand stars
    Caveat: 10KS (and Manyshot) penalize you -100% Doubleshot while active, so you cant Doubleshot on a 10KS throw. Not sure if it likewise disables extra shots from those other sources too.

  2. #122
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Caveat: 10KS (and Manyshot) penalize you -100% Doubleshot while active, so you cant Doubleshot on a 10KS throw. Not sure if it likewise disables extra shots from those other sources too.
    True. That's why i only counted attacks per attack animation without 10k stars and added 10k stars last because it is hard to determine what bonus in attack speed and additional shuriken it actually gives and is highly dependant on your WIS score. Still 10k stars with a high WIS bonus is absolutely worth it in my opinion and is something Soulfurnace didnt take into account.

    The usual attack speed with a good double shot value and high DEX is quite good too from my personal experience on the live server. It is a bit hard to calculate attacks per minute though with 3 random procs at a time if you want to get a good average over one minute. Best thing you can do is count attack animations and get the average number of attacks from the statistics of proc chances.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    True. That's why i only counted attacks per attack animation without 10k stars and added 10k stars last because it is hard to determine what bonus in attack speed and additional shuriken it actually gives and is highly dependant on your WIS score. Still 10k stars with a high WIS bonus is absolutely worth it in my opinion and is something Soulfurnace didnt take into account.

    The usual attack speed with a good double shot value and high DEX is quite good too from my personal experience on the live server. It is a bit hard to calculate attacks per minute though with 3 random procs at a time if you want to get a good average over one minute. Best thing you can do is count attack animations and get the average number of attacks from the statistics of proc chances.

    If you can keep killing stuff over the course of a minute my build generates approximately 5 attacks per second (using the 1.5 attacks per second that was found by Soulfurnace - still not entirely sure if he used Quick Draw though) before 10k stars. Since I cannot test 10k stars I'm leaving it out entirely and just using doubleshot which I know turns off during it.

    Which means "about" 300 attacks per minute - caveat: while killing stuff every 15 seconds.

    The numbers drop down to a little under 4 attacks per second when doubleshot is reduced by 20% with no Killer proc's. The result is about 240 attacks per minute.

    These numbers become more exact the longer time periods you run them for. With a minute worth of testing I'd expected that number to vary by upwards of 20 shots on either side.

    This does NOT include 10k stars. I'm expecting between 24-28 as my final wisdom score so if someone with more experience than I with 10k stars wants to take a crack at that we'll have an answer for my "pre-stacks of killer" attacks per second.

    Finally it's important to remember that these additional attacks are "true" attacks. ie: They're like a super crit. They bonus the average damage dealt by a base hit. So all sneak attacks, elemental damage and any normal critting damage modifiers. Further, each of the (up to 4) shurikens can crit which they will be doing at a x3 rate (mountain stance) from a 18-20 crit range.

    All told, that's some fairly potent dps potential - at least with my build which is looking at between 4-480 sneak attack damage per second.

    *cough*Not that 480 is at all likely*cough cough*

    Having done some rather shady math (I made what I considered to be some low ball estimates on how offhand weapons would interact with shurikens - using the Shuricannon suggested off hand weapon, Celestia and I used The Morning Star as the primary weapon) I came up with around 720 dps while landing sneak attacks using 4 attacks per second as the base estimation multiplier.

    That excludes a few things: Shiradi % chance proc effects (I recall them adding about 15 damage per attack or so... but I'm going by memory so if that's correct you can add another 60 dps)
    Double Rainbow is not added. I don't even know how to approach adding this to the dps numbers so I've left it out entirely.
    I also left out Tea with the Queen but that's a very minor thing.

    All told, I'd wager dps would be in the high 700's to low 800's - which can be applied to multiple targets using improved precision.

    As a reminder: This is using the 1.5 attacks per second model.
    Last edited by Xianio; 09-30-2013 at 11:06 AM.

  4. #124
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Even though i'm too lazy to do the math and tests i'm sure you wouldn't want to drop 10k stars if you have a high WIS score. Just play the game, test 10k stars and you will see a major increase in flowing numbers. This more than makes up for the loss of Doubleshot by far.
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  5. #125
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    Never said that I would. But 10k stars has a cooldown that I'd like to mitigate as much as possible. I'd rather a more rounded curve than sharp peaks and valleys.

    Also, I am playing the game. Just finished solo'ing the Vile Alchemist with my little lvl 3 halfling rogue. Soooo much acid damage >.<

  6. #126
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    As a reminder: This is using the 1.5 attacks per second model.
    As a reminder: That 1.5 attack/second was using fighter haste boost, which lasts 5-8*20 seconds - 100-160 seconds per rest. Not long.

    1 attack/second is a more reasonable number without unlimited haste boost.

    Also, what is this "Vile Alchemist"? Having done a favour life where I did every quest on elite, I don't remember that.. Unless you mean Proof is in the Poison... which is in the vile apothecary? (Also, was that done on elite?)

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    As a reminder: That 1.5 attack/second was using fighter haste boost, which lasts 5-8*20 seconds - 100-160 seconds per rest. Not long.

    1 attack/second is a more reasonable number without unlimited haste boost.

    Also, what is this "Vile Alchemist"? Having done a favour life where I did every quest on elite, I don't remember that.. Unless you mean Proof is in the Poison... which is in the vile apothecary? (Also, was that done on elite?)
    Yup, that's the one. Also no no, only normal. I'm already a level or two below what's suggested and I'm using a pure dex rogue. I think that's good enough for now. I also don't understand how you're getting 1 attack per second with fighter haste/quick draw/rapid shot/whirling wrist. My level 3 rogue has 1 attack per second with a thrown weapon, no haste. That would suggest that whirling wrist is bugged and just doesn't work.

  8. #128
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Yup, that's the one. Also no no, only normal. I'm already a level or two below what's suggested and I'm using a pure dex rogue. I think that's good enough for now. I also don't understand how you're getting 1 attack per second with fighter haste/quick draw/rapid shot/whirling wrist. My level 3 rogue has 1 attack per second with a thrown weapon, no haste. That would suggest that whirling wrist is bugged and just doesn't work.
    I said without fighter haste. Planning on TRing my main tonight (or tomorrow, depends how bored I get) so I'll test it again.

    20 second test, no haste, no wrist, no f. haste. Tested twice, 16 seems right.
    20 second test, haste, no wrist, no f. haste. 18
    20 second rest, no haste, wrist, no f. haste. 21 (Target dummy was at 1/3 hp. See the randomness of shiradi? :P)
    20 second test, no haste, no wrist, f. haste. 19
    20 second test, haste, wrist, no f. haste. 24-25. (Also took out the target dummy. Shiradi has potential if you have enough spell power.)
    20 second test, haste, no wrist, f. haste. 20
    20 second test, no haste, wrist, f. haste. 24-25
    20 second test, haste, wrist, f. haste. 27. Was hard to tell, one half of the animation was instant. (30, if you'd rather)

    And just to avoid the evil forum police, f. haste is fighter haste. (No giving me more infractions!)

    *Edit* added values. To be honest, it's really, really hard to tell with my bad eyesight and reaction speed. Still, I tested a few times, should be close. Ish.
    Last edited by Soulfurnace; 10-01-2013 at 07:52 AM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    I said without fighter haste. Planning on TRing my main tonight (or tomorrow, depends how bored I get) so I'll test it again.

    20 second test, no haste, no wrist, no f. haste. Tested twice, 16 seems right.
    20 second test, haste, no wrist, no f. haste. 18
    20 second rest, no haste, wrist, no f. haste. 21 (Target dummy was at 1/3 hp. See the randomness of shiradi? :P)
    20 second test, no haste, no wrist, f. haste. 19
    20 second test, haste, wrist, no f. haste. 24-25. (Also took out the target dummy. Shiradi has potential if you have enough spell power.)
    20 second test, haste, no wrist, f. haste. 20
    20 second test, no haste, wrist, f. haste. 24-25
    20 second test, haste, wrist, f. haste. 27. Was hard to tell, one half of the animation was instant. (30, if you'd rather)

    And just to avoid the evil forum police, f. haste is fighter haste. (No giving me more infractions!)

    *Edit* added values. To be honest, it's really, really hard to tell with my bad eyesight and reaction speed. Still, I tested a few times, should be close. Ish.
    Just for the sake of clarity - this is also using rapid shot and quick draw?

    - edit: Couldn't you just count the number of shurikens/thrown weapons left in the stack?

    Having done some rather shady math (I made what I considered to be some low ball estimates on how offhand weapons would interact with shurikens - using the Shuricannon suggested off hand weapon, Celestia and I used The Morning Star as the primary weapon) I came up with around 720 dps while landing sneak attacks using 4 attacks per second as the base estimation multiplier.
    So, given the info above this would be a fairly accurate number to use as 4 remains the "normal" number of throws per second, maybe with the addition of a minor speed prefix/affix (I don't know which it is). Adding in fighter haste would then give an extra 1-2 attacks depending no how lucky you are.

    I don't really know how this compares though to a normal rogues end game damage. Is 700-800 decent? Is applying stat/negative level/whatever the weapon has on it 4 times a second considered reasonable?
    Last edited by Xianio; 10-01-2013 at 09:09 AM.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    - edit: Couldn't you just count the number of shurikens/thrown weapons left in the stack?
    hehehe, *waits for the slap as Soulfurnace realises he was doing it the hard way and does a facepalm/d'oh*
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  11. #131
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Just for the sake of clarity - this is also using rapid shot and quick draw?

    - edit: Couldn't you just count the number of shurikens/thrown weapons left in the stack?
    No, I am not. I didn't feel like swapping two feats. As I've said, it's not exact, just an indication of what to expect. Personally, I'd use haste+whirling wrist as the expected speed. If it's faster with more feats, great! If you can add f. haste, great! If the feats don't give it much, then at least you planned for that sort of attack rate. (Feats should bring haste+wrist (perm buffs, with the feat) up to 27-28 every 20 seconds.)

    Also, no. I was using a returning shuriken, but it doesn't matter much. As I have ninja spy, I throw 2 shurikens at times.
    And even if possible, you still have the given human error - reaction speed in regards to time. Esp with me, my reactions are anywhere from .08 of a second (if I'm really awake), to the more usual .85 of a second. So.. margin of error of +- 1 shuriken.

  12. #132
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    human fighters are invaluable guinea pigs, they get 3 feats at lvl1 and are perfect for testing feat combinations. so you could roll a few up on a spare server and compare rapid shot and quickdraw against base attack speed. it might not give you precise numbers as it wont tell you how they interact with all the other speed buffs, but it should give you a good indication on how much difference they can make.

    from personal experience (about 6 years out of date so grab that salt) quickdraw made a very noticeable difference on my fighter when i decided dropping a feat on my ranged backup was worth it for those pesky perched mobs i couldn't get to
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  13. #133
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    No, I am not. I didn't feel like swapping two feats.
    Kk, thanks - that should make a very big difference then.

    From my experience (I tried this on 3 toons so far) Quick Draw -vastly- increases the attack speed and the effectiveness of skills like rapid shot. The major reason for this being that Quick Draw changes the speed of the drawing animation which is otherwise unaffected by attack speed increases.

    This, therefore, is a critical feat for taking advantage of throwing as it opens up about (from my estimate) 50% more "animation space" for actually throwing.

    On my full bab level 4 fighter I noticed a huge change in number of attacks (within reason) from under 1 second to noticeably over 1 second.

    That's some pretty good news for me.

  14. #134
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Ok i made a simple test. With Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Blinding Speed and full BAB i had 74 attack animations in 60 seconds. Adding Whirling Wrists boosts that to 85 attack animations per minute or 1,42 attacks per second.

    This could still be boosted a bit if you twist the Fatesinger Ability Echoes of the Ancestors: Primal (Shiradi Champion) or if you activate a Haste Boost from Fighter or Rogue. I didn't test that though.

    Also Urjak did some tests of attack speeds on the Lamannia server in Beta 3 of Update 19 but only with a BAB of 21 instead of 25+ so my values are a bit more accurate for a pure monk build at least. Here is the Link:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...hirling+wrists

    Perhaps i will try to test the average attacks per attack animation with and without 10k stars later if i feel in the mood. Just wanted to give you an idea of how high you can push the values. But even with a DEX of only 50 and without 10k stars you should have more than 3 attacks per second when you have Shuriken Expertise and Ninja II. (2x50%=100% to throw two shuriken plus 50%*50%=25% chance to throw three shuriken times 1,42 animations per second means 2,25*1,42=3,2 attacks per second) adding Doubleshot, 10k stars, Haste Boost and/or Echoes of the Ancestors and a higher DEX value should give even higher values of course. The actual attacks doing damage are lower of course because you have at least a 5% miss chance or higher depending on your attack value and the monsters AC.
    Last edited by Firewall; 10-01-2013 at 10:52 AM.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
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    ^ That's actually not correct. Two 50% chances that are independent of one another don't produce a 100% chance of success. Think of it like a pair of dice. If you roll two dice with a 50% chance of success (4,5,6) it's still possible to roll snake eyes and fail both 50% chances.

  16. #136
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    ^ That's actually not correct. Two 50% chances that are independent of one another don't produce a 100% chance of success. Think of it like a pair of dice. If you roll two dice with a 50% chance of success (4,5,6) it's still possible to roll snake eyes and fail both 50% chances.
    I know that. That's why i said 2*50%. But statistically if you have two times a chance of 50% you will have one of both chances always hit the mark so it is statistically a 100% chance. Thats the same as if you roll six 6-sided dice. Statistically one of them will produce a roll of 6 every throw.
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  17. #137
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    It has been far to long since I've had to work with probabilities. I cannot recall how to work with multiple case probabilities whatsoever. If anyone more clever than I can figure out the probability for these events it would help me out a great deal:

    Case 1: 60% chance to throw additional star
    Case 2: 60% chance to throw additional star
    Case 3: 40% chance to throw additional star

    1 shot: 100% (obviously)
    2 shots:
    3 shots:
    4 shots:

    This is what happens when you go to school for communications and spend years only being required to do basic math. All those years of calc. and discrete geometry have been pushed out for comm. theory and excessive grammar rules.
    Last edited by Xianio; 10-01-2013 at 05:03 PM.

  18. #138
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    My guildmate built a pure monk thrower that seems to be working pretty darn well. So well, I changed my first life fighter into one to try it for myself.

    It looks like it will be more than viable once I max out the shiradi tree.
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  19. #139
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    If you only have 3 separate chances the chance to get 4 shots is actually 0%. ^^ But i know what you mean. I do not work with statistics either but to the best of my knowledge it is like this:

    1 shot= 100%+60%+60%+40%= 260% (four independant chances to get the result)
    2 shots= 60%+60%+40%= 160% (since you have a 100% chance to throw the first shuriken you can calculate only the chances for a second shuriken like in the first independant case)
    3 shots= 60% * (60%+40%)= 60% (dependant throws where two of three have to hit)
    4 shots= 60% * 60% * 40% = 14,4% (dependant throws where all three have to hit, i'm not exactly sure but i think to get the accurate numbers you have to calculate with the reciprocal chances like you do with dependant miss chances for displacement, incorporeal and the like so it would more be like 10,4% chance)

    Someone please correct me if i'm wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    It has been far to long since I've had to work with probabilities. I cannot recall how to work with multiple case probabilities whatsoever. If anyone more clever than I can figure out the probability for these events it would help me out a great deal:

    Case 1: 60% chance to throw additional star
    Case 2: 60% chance to throw additional star
    Case 3: 40% chance to throw additional star

    1 shot: 100% (obviously)
    2 shots:
    3 shots:
    4 shots:

    This is what happens when you go to school for communications and spend years only being required to do basic math. All those years of calc. and discrete geometry have been pushed out for comm. theory and excessive grammar rules.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
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    Well, if that's the case then here are the final numbers on the very fancy 13 rogue/6 monk + an undecided 1 (probably fighter for the boost).

    Using 1.42 attacks per second.
    Using The Morning Star fully upgraded and epic
    Any +8 damage while sneak attacking weapon (deception I believe is the affix)
    With a seeker modifier of +10 (+10 damage x crit, during crit)
    This accepts 35% as the lowest doubleshot chance and 55% being the highest

    Final damage total (while sneak attacking): 457 - 1025 dps
    Omitted: Double Rainbow, 10k Stars, Damage Boost, Haste Boost.

    This was found for both top and bottom numbers by:
    ((full damage profile + 10% of critical damage profile + 7% Shiradi damage potential) + (repeat of section one) + (%60 of section 1) + (the above equation-modified doubleshot success % of section 1)) * 1.42 = final, while sneak attacking damage numbers.

    Well, I can safely say that this was entertaining. While it can't compete with the pure dps AA + Primal Fury builds, I think this little rogue does some pretty fantastic damage for all the utility he brings.

    I know I learned a lot and not to bad for a throwing star build lol.
    Last edited by Xianio; 10-02-2013 at 01:37 AM.

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