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  1. #61
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Well, the nice thing about throwing is that they're all the same "class" of items. You don't need to pick any specific one of them to see benefits from any.

    That said, what feats would you take that are shuriken specific? 10k stars requires a pretty notable wis score before it becomes worthwhile (22-24ish) and I can't think of any others.

    Have I missed one that I could toss into my build?

    Currently the best item "looks" like the end result (feats in) being: 3.5(1d4) +5 enchant + open red slot - 16-20 x 5 critical and that's a Dart. Unless you're going Drow for double Shuriken's I don't see why they're better. The crit is 1 less to start, the crit chance is 2 less and the base damage is half. I don't know, maybe 10k stars is really good, but wouldn't being dex-based eliminate that?

    PS: When you test, please ensure that you're hasted as well. My build ends with Blinding Speed so I'm curious about the difference that would make - if you wouldn't mind.
    Of course I'll be hasted - also add in fighter haste.
    10k stars gains 3.4% dps with every wis mod. 10 wis mod (easy!) gives a 34% dps increase - including downtime.
    Also, you need to be centered for monk goodies - such as +1 crit multiplier on a 19-20. Also, a few ninja spy abilities, such as Ninja Training (II), " You also gain a chance based on your Dexterity score to throw an extra shuriken per attack.", Ninja Master, "While you are centered, you gain a +1 Competence bonus to the Critical Threat Range with Short Swords and a +2 Competence bonus to the Critical Threat Range with Kamas and Shuriken. Any piercing or slashing weapon you wield gains the Vorpal ability." (Note, it does claim to be bugged, but my mate claims otherwise. I'll get around to testing on lamaland later.)

    Ninja spy also offers sneak attack, as does halfling - and another broken ability, "Master Thrower: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to the Critical Threat Range of returning thrown weapons. BUG: Does not work at all!" So.. Something ELSE to test on lamaland later. /sigh

    In fact, if these are working on lamaland, that might be my third monk life - halfling, wis/dex based throwing toon.. pure monk..

    (Yes, so much is bugged. Still, hopefully it's fixed on lama and wiki is out-of-date.)

  2. #62
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    *sigh* Well, looks like I'm giving up on that toon. That's two tries down the drain from buggy interactions.

    My plan was to use Occult Slayer's bonded weapon to gain some nice offensive/defensive buffs. Unfortunately, even with returning thrown weapons it counts as a "weapon change" every throw. Therefore, thrown weapons are the only class of weapons in the game that cannot benefit from bonded weapon.

    Such a letdown.

  3. #63
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Well, the nice thing about throwing is that they're all the same "class" of items. You don't need to pick any specific one of them to see benefits from any.

    That said, what feats would you take that are shuriken specific? 10k stars requires a pretty notable wis score before it becomes worthwhile (22-24ish) and I can't think of any others.

    Have I missed one that I could toss into my build?

    Currently the best item "looks" like the end result (feats in) being: 3.5(1d4) +5 enchant + open red slot - 16-20 x 5 critical and that's a Dart. Unless you're going Drow for double Shuriken's I don't see why they're better. The crit is 1 less to start, the crit chance is 2 less and the base damage is half. I don't know, maybe 10k stars is really good, but wouldn't being dex-based eliminate that?

    PS: When you test, please ensure that you're hasted as well. My build ends with Blinding Speed so I'm curious about the difference that would make - if you wouldn't mind.
    If you can get that critical ranged dart to work - wow, X5 multiplier in Fury of the Wild will do immense damage!

  4. #64
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    ^ Didn't work. Occult Slayer "bonded weapon" doesn't recognize thrown weapons with Returning as the same weapon so no stacks are created. Which was really too bad because I was pretty pumped when I figured it out.

    But! Never one to give up easy I'm back with a new take on the throw build. I have no experience with end game damage numbers/gear so let me know if I"m screwing any of this up. Also, I don't know what's normal 'group buffs' for general flat damage. So none of that is added in either.

    Build:
    12 Fighter (Kensai)/ 6 Ranger (DwS) / 2 Artificer - Race Human (Kensai Keen is competency, as is Halfling's bonus, so Human becomes the best race)

    End primary stats with +2 tome of str:
    24 str
    21 dex

    Damage output:
    3.5(1d4) - Point blank, combat archery and nightstar
    5 - enchantment
    12 - Shardi flat damage bonus
    7 - str
    3 - +6 strength (I assume an empowered bulls)
    4 - psionic kensai str
    4 - Kensai bonus damage
    4 - Fighter Feats
    10 - Kensai "insight bonus" to enchantment (this one I'm not sure I understand)
    (3) - Kensai + to crit damage
    5 - Heavy Draw
    ---------------------
    59.5 - 71 * 1.8 - Improved Archers stance and DwS damage boost
    x 300% (Only 2 uses but useful for big numbers)
    --------------
    107.5 - 127.8 (322.5 - 383.4)
    10 - Red slot elemental damage
    117.5 - 127.8 (352.5 - 413.4)
    Crit: x6 - DwS Sniper shot/6 sec cd + Overwhelming
    705 - 766.8 (2115 - 2480)
    20 - Rune Arm
    ? - Rune Arm crafting options (I don't know how this works)
    6 - 36 - Sneak attack DwS and Human
    -----------
    Final damage total including sneak attacks: 143.5 - 183.8 (378.5 - 469.4)
    Final damage total on crit including sneak attacks: 731 - 822.8 (2141 - 2536)
    Critical hit range: 14-20 - 18-20 base, improved crit + kensai +1 to keen range. This assumes Kensai bonus is applied after improved, otherwise 13-20
    Doubleshot chance: 34%

    Not included:
    7% 3d20
    7% 2d100
    7% 10d10
    10% 10d100 (once per second, for 30 seconds)

    I don't know if anyone cares to look that through but those are my numbers. I probably got something wrong, most likely with how Artificer rune arm is applied. For example, if the elemental damage can crit then add a BUNCH more damage. So, that's my third try at a throw build. If anyones brave enough to read through all that, let me know your thoughts
    Last edited by Xianio; 09-22-2013 at 09:38 PM.

  5. #65
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    Yet another question:

    If I start with 8 cha, what's a reasonable number to expect it to be with gear but 0 tomes?

    I'm contemplating going for Divine Might instead of the Rune Arm but I don't know what to expect from gear-related, no stat buffs cha. Could I get it to +6-7 or higher?

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Yet another question:

    If I start with 8 cha, what's a reasonable number to expect it to be with gear but 0 tomes?

    I'm contemplating going for Divine Might instead of the Rune Arm but I don't know what to expect from gear-related, no stat buffs cha. Could I get it to +6-7 or higher?
    Typically +6 is what you'd have room for (most builds won't want to allocate more than one equipment slot to a charisma item). +9 might be possible with Eveningstar commendation gear, but that would require 2 gear slots you might need for other things. On the other hand, by 20th level there's a fair chance of looting or buying (on AH) a +2 tome, so +8 (tome + gear slot) wouldn't be unreasonable

  7. #67
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    Oh that's very reasonable then. Most likely better to FS/Cleric/Pally for a +8 damage bonus that works with crit than an Artificer bonus that (I assume) doesn't.

    Thanks!

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Oh that's very reasonable then. Most likely better to FS/Cleric/Pally for a +8 damage bonus that works with crit than an Artificer bonus that (I assume) doesn't.

    Thanks!
    Er...just in case I wasn't clear - the numbers I was mentioning (like a +6 item) were bonuses to the Charisma stat, not from charisma - so 8 base, + a +6 item would be 14 charisma, for a +2 charisma bonus. Adding the tome brings CHA up to 16, for a +3 bonus. Still potentially useful and possibly worth some enhancement points and a gear slot, but nothing earthshaking

  9. #69
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    FYI, you cannot take more than one set of T5 enhancements; if your plan is to go for Keen Edge + Heavy Draw, well, I'm afraid you'll have to drop one of them. On the plus side, this gives you an incentive to go back to halfling.

  10. #70
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    After several attempts myself with the new system I am of a mind that there is still just no reason to even try to use throwing weapons as a main fighting style. certainly they can be useful in unusual circumstances but thats simply all.

    The fact remains if using a one handed range, the repeater will always be superior and with both rogue mechanic and artificer out there, no one need burn a feat on them anymore. They can use rune arms just as well, and the speed of a repeaters shots is just to far above the very best dex/wis shuriken thrower on top of such higher base dmg it makes the entire line of thought futile to ponder.

    Likewise bows have arcane archery, and many shot, and the fact they have many shot is all it takes to make throwing too far below to be considered.

    There is a reason people use the idea of throwing weapon builds as a way to try to attack players of warrior centric divines and combat focussed rogues as being just as gimp as those rogues who wont trap, and clerics who wont heal even in a reasonable emergency.

    The simple fact is if you want to be a ranged killer repeaters are easily top choice, and bows your second. throwers just dont rate. And please trust me I dont hate on the idea, the concept, nor do I not understand the desire to make something out of the box for fun. Its just that if your going to makea build who is primarily there to hurt and kill things, making something to far below what is standard will only lead to frustration for you and those you may pug with.

    SeriouslY tried to make a viable dart thrower just to enjoy taht cool little dart from RotSP ( relic of the sovriegn past) I mean 18-20 X3 for its crit was so nice I just wanted to make someone who could really make use of such a nifty little tool, but the attack speed just isnt there period. Your too far behind based on taht simple fact alone to make it viable. You could be a strength dumped guy with a great sword, and just using attack speed boosts and double strike probably come out far ahead by end game.

    For a 1-10 fun for flavor thing its not too bad, as long as no arty is on the team. Thats about it.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    FYI, you cannot take more than one set of T5 enhancements; if your plan is to go for Keen Edge + Heavy Draw, well, I'm afraid you'll have to drop one of them. On the plus side, this gives you an incentive to go back to halfling.
    Wait, why is this? It only says that I need a character level of 12 and a Ranger level of 5 and 30 progression to get Tier 5 in both Kensai and DeS. Is ddowiki wrong :S

    SeriouslY tried to make a viable dart thrower just to enjoy taht cool little dart from RotSP ( relic of the sovriegn past) I mean 18-20 X3 for its crit was so nice I just wanted to make someone who could really make use of such a nifty little tool, but the attack speed just isnt there period. Your too far behind based on taht simple fact alone to make it viable. You could be a strength dumped guy with a great sword, and just using attack speed boosts and double strike probably come out far ahead by end game.
    Have you tried Shiradi's +60% throwing weapon attack speed increase? I'm not saying you're wrong (I've seen it myself), only that everyone who says this has never tried the Shiradi's attack speed boost. Given that it's more than double what you can achieve currently I suspect it will make a great deal of difference to DPS.

    Also, you don't make a throw build to have the highest DPS, you take a throw build to have moderately high dps and substantially better defense (usually). After all, if I gain +15-40 PPR + 30 AC and some extra defensive buffs (elemental defense, deathblock or whatever) it all adds up to a build that can take a LOT more punishment than your typical DPS archer.

    TLDR: Does that include Shiradi +60% and throw builds aren't supposed to have higher DPS than archers just WAY higher defense.

    Another question though!

    Does the elemental damage gained from Rune Arm crit when the weapon does?
    Last edited by Xianio; 09-23-2013 at 06:10 PM.

  12. #72
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Well how unfortunate, the +8 kensai str bonus isn't available if I want that extra +5 heavy draw damage.
    Actually, you can take Heavy Draw + Power Surge, since it's a core enhancement, not a T5 one.

  13. #73
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    I'm confused.

    Under ddowiki it says that Kensai Power Surge takes 12 Fighter levels and x progression while Keen takes 5 fighter levels, 30 progression and 12 character levels (no class specified).

    Is this wrong?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    I'm confused.

    Under ddowiki it says that Kensai Power Surge takes 12 Fighter levels and x progression while Keen takes 5 fighter levels, 30 progression and 12 character levels (no class specified).

    Is this wrong?
    Sounds like, and not trying to be rude here, you need to actually spend time learning how the enhancments actually work now before even trying such an experimental build, likewise going from roughly lvls 11-20 as a total gimp supposed DPS centric character is just not fair to others you may team with. I have no issue with builds taking into account their end game ED powers, but ignoring a huge chunk of the slower to lvl through heroic lvls and the added effort you will place on others to help you through it seems rather thoughtless.

    So a quick lesson in how the new trees work. Trees now have a vertical and horizontal path. The vertical path has 5 teirs and access to those teirs is directly conntected to a like amount of lvls in the class for that tree. for example 5th tier fighter tree abilities require at least 5( in the case of kensai 8) lvls of the class. In the case of the horizontal abilities, they are connected to the class in a rate of 1/3/6 etc for lvls, with a capstone ability waiting at 20 if you go purist.

    However when you take a tier 5 ability from ANY tree it also locks out access to all other tree's fifth tier abilities.

    Hopefully this at least helps you plan your idea out abit better. I am not saying dont bother trying it, just be ready to be frustrated in end game, largely because no truly powerful epic lvl throwers exist comparing to some epic bows and repeaters.

  15. #75
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Under ddowiki it says that Kensai Power Surge takes 12 Fighter levels and x progression while Keen takes 5 fighter levels, 30 progression and 12 character levels (no class specified).
    That's mostly correct; what the Keen Edge description doesn't quite make explicit is you need T4 Weapon Group Specialization first, which req's Gtr Weapon Focus feat, which req's at least ftr lvl 8.

    Note however that Power Surge doesn't require anything except 12 ftr lvls and spending 3 APs on previous core enhs plus 17 more in the tiered enhancements; i.e., it doesn't matter how high up the tiered tree you climb, just that you spend 17 pts in it. It's a bit confusing at first, but it means for a rgr 6 / ftr 12 build you could choose to spend 32 APs in DWS for Heavy Draw (+5 ranged dmg) and 21 APs in Kensei for Power Surge (+8 STR for 1 min.); spend another 16 APs in halfling tree for Master Thrower (+1 crit range - was bugged, not sure if it's fixed yet).

    Not saying that's ideal, just that it's feasible.

  16. #76
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    Sounds like, and not trying to be rude here, you need to actually spend time learning how the enhancements actually work
    What do you think the point of this thread is

    It's just imperfect data on the ddowiki that's causing issues. If Tier 5 is a lockout that really doesn't hurt me that much as Halfling adds the same effect. I don't actually lose any power, it just limits the Race I can pick to Halfling to have the same power. Also, given your response, I am safe to assume then that you haven't tried Shiradi's 60% attack speed buff?

    So a quick lesson in how the new trees work. Trees now have a vertical and horizontal path.
    C'mon mate, give me some credit, clearly I know how tiers work minus one piece of data that's not clearly articulated in the wiki. The rest of the thread shows that pretty well. It's really only that I didn't know that Tier 5 was single class exclusive. But, that's why I post builds before I try them

    I suspect that I'll explore the FS or Pally trees a little more and see if I can squeeze out a few more points of flat damage. If only I was using 36 points, I'd be so much tougher :P

    One question still remains though;

    Does artificers rune arm damage crit when the weapon does?

  17. #77
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Does artificers rune arm damage crit when the weapon does?
    I thought I told you this - no.
    The rune arm charge attack will not crit based off weapon crit - think of it as a spell with the option to charge it.

    No elemental damage is affected by crits, unless it's something along the lines of burst/blast.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    I thought I told you this - no.
    The rune arm charge attack will not crit based off weapon crit - think of it as a spell with the option to charge it.

    No elemental damage is affected by crits, unless it's something along the lines of burst/blast.
    We were talking about Shiradi elemental bonus damage then. The reason I asked is due to the difference in the language used to describe the artificers rune arm damage. Artificers damage is "added to your main hand weapon" while Shiradi simply has a 7% to do x damage. - Not a huge difference, but those are kind of the small things that sometimes result in unexpected interactions.

  19. #79
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    We were talking about Shiradi elemental bonus damage then. The reason I asked is due to the difference in the language used to describe the artificers rune arm damage. Artificers damage is "added to your main hand weapon" while Shiradi simply has a 7% to do x damage. - Not a huge difference, but those are kind of the small things that sometimes result in unexpected interactions.
    Okay, allow me to clarify. It adds it as a separate damage hit - like lacerating. (hah)
    So, let's say you're at 1d10 base - or 5.5 avg.
    It then adds 1d100 damage, or 55.5 avg.
    Your standard hit will be 61 avg.
    On a crit, you'll do 11+55.5, or 66.5. (Yes, using an oversized elemental damage does make it very obvious.)

    Also, thank you for actually including my name in the quote (along with ;xxxxxxxx). It lets me find exactly what you're quoting so much easier.

    *edit* bad math!
    50.5 avg elemental.
    56 avg hit.
    On crit, 61.5 avg hit.
    I need to stop posting in such a mood.

  20. #80
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    To make some things clear:

    1. Whirling Wrists 60% attack speed increase is in fact only a 30% increase in attack speed since it only increases the attack part but not the reload part of the animation! So you always only get half the benefit!

    2. Bows and Crossbows get benefits from Ranged Alacrity which stacks with the ToD Set ranged alacrity which gives them an increased attack speed (up to 20% from usual ranged alacrity and an additional 10% from the arcane archer ToD set). Throwing weapons do not benefit from this! Also bows do much more damage per shot and there is a lot more named bows.

    3. The only named epic throwing weapons are a shuriken (The Morning Star up to lvl 27) and a throwing dagger (Epic Noxious Fang lvl 20) aside from the non-named spelltouched throwers and random loot.

    4. If you really want a viable throwing weapon aim for the Spelltouched throwing weapons from the Eveningstar Challenges. There is a lvl 16 version, a lvl 20 version and a lvl 24 version. The lvl 24 version has 8 weapon effects on it per throw. 4 fixed weapon effects and 4 random ones. The other versions have 3 fixed and 3 random ones. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Eveningstar_Challenge_Pack) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Spellplague)

    5. The advantage of throwing weapons over bows is that you can benefit from an Offhand item. If you want to learn what benefits an Offhand item can give you just ask or check my Shiradi Shuricannon build thread here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...di-Shuricannon
    You can also find many of the reasons why a shuriken build is better in this thread. (This is in fact my third capped thrower build - two of them before update 19 - so you could say i have some experience with what works and what does not from playing such toons)

    6. With U19 Patch 2 the extended crit range from the ninja spy capstone works now. The vorpal part always worked anyway.

    7. If you want to rely upon sneak attack damage you can get to very high damage numbers (Improved Sneak Attack epic feat) but if you cannot get enhanced sneak attack range (Elf Tree, Deepwood Sniper Tree) you are not a ranged toon at all. Also be sure to have some stuff that makes mobs helpless (Frozen Tunic) or blind (Radiance Weapon) to get auto sneak attacks even when you have the aggro or are soloing.

    8. One of the big Problems of thrower builds is that they have awful problems getting throwing weapons that break damage reduction and/or that have instakill abilities like smiting, vorpal, banishing and disruption or even CC effects like paralyze, radiance etc.

    9. BAB effects your attack animation like every other weapon animation. It is only just VERY slow to begin with. Thus if you have a low BAB you will end up with a low attack speed (every full 5 points of BAB increase your attack animation)
    Last edited by Firewall; 09-24-2013 at 11:10 PM.

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