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  1. #61
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    I'm pretty sure Roman tactics and shield use came into it as well.
    Yup, the shieldwall was about the only place where the gladius beat the longsword. The main reason for the romans success was superior tactics, and a better grasp of strategy than most of their opponents. The rest were beaten with superior numbers.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  2. #62
    Community Member TBot1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauthaag View Post
    sling
    hand crossbow
    spear
    halberd
    spiked chain
    trident
    net
    All good. Yes, please!
    "So maybe it's about time we all get a reality check and realize that if you raid, run epics, and have capped toons and worry about ED's TR's and all that jazz, you are a small part of the population of this game, a very small part in fact." -- Ungood

  3. #63
    Community Member Heathir's Avatar
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    So much history here.

    Don't forget with Rapier, foils, etc....the mercenaries at the time had an effect on what weapons were used as the free mercenary companies typically developed and evolved tactis. Case in point the german mercanary units made light blades more popular on the battlefield as they were able to wear light amor, and win battles off mobility rather than strength. Hence a lighter, faster blade was needed to complement the lighter armor and faster troop movements.

    The bow was the single greatest weapon creation prior to gunpowder. Blades were built and discarded based on decades due to the easy countering of armor or tactics. We are also leaving out the innovations of the flail (defeats shield usage), the pick or morningstar (punctures heavy armor), etc

    Also the reason the romans used the gladius was a matter of size. The short sword is the easiest blade to learn. It is not a slashing weapon, it is purely a thrusting weapon. You cannot build up enough inertia with a short sword to do significant damange, hence it was built point first. The romans had an army of conscripts and it was a huge one at that. If you have a group of 500,00 farmers and need to teach them how to be effective in combat....short sword gives you the fastest turn around time on investment. Also the weapon was cheaper to make, which was a factor of the time.

    ewww..I rambled

  4. #64
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heathir View Post
    So much history here.

    Don't forget with Rapier, foils, etc....the mercenaries at the time had an effect on what weapons were used as the free mercenary companies typically developed and evolved tactis. Case in point the german mercanary units made light blades more popular on the battlefield as they were able to wear light amor, and win battles off mobility rather than strength. Hence a lighter, faster blade was needed to complement the lighter armor and faster troop movements.

    The bow was the single greatest weapon creation prior to gunpowder. Blades were built and discarded based on decades due to the easy countering of armor or tactics. We are also leaving out the innovations of the flail (defeats shield usage), the pick or morningstar (punctures heavy armor), etc

    Also the reason the romans used the gladius was a matter of size. The short sword is the easiest blade to learn. It is not a slashing weapon, it is purely a thrusting weapon. You cannot build up enough inertia with a short sword to do significant damange, hence it was built point first. The romans had an army of conscripts and it was a huge one at that. If you have a group of 500,00 farmers and need to teach them how to be effective in combat....short sword gives you the fastest turn around time on investment. Also the weapon was cheaper to make, which was a factor of the time.

    ewww..I rambled
    Remember, though that in the roman age the average tour of duty for a legionnaire (if he didint get killed) was 20 years, so they had a lot of time to learn weapons.

    It just wasnt encouraged.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  5. #65
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    I would like to see more options in named Crossbows!

    Otherwise it's just Needle, Needle, and more Needle.

  6. #66
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    The shield is meant to block the atttack against you, not be attacked.

    Few swords of the older era (khopeshes included) were designed to block with, especially the heavier blades. They were rather expensive to make, and you wouldnt want them to break. The katana you could parry with since it was comparatively flexible (i dont mean like the chinese blades were, but having flex), and what you parried was another katana. Beside that the khopesh would be rather clumsy to block with, just wasnt designed for it.

    Snapping the whole thing wasnt an effect of my strength, but of th eblade i used. A falchion can be considered the clusmy offspring of an axe and a rapier. It has a heavy chopping edge that tapers convexely to a needle point. Its only design was to penetrate armor. And its horribly clumsy to wield. Against a katana i think it would run second, unless A) i was very heavily armored (which i probably would be) or B) you were foolish enough to parry it.

    The same goes for the claymores, as long as i wasnt heavily armored or you didnt try to parry it, the katanas speed would probably beat it.

    The whole point is that in their time and era most weapons were excellent, but taken out of context they would lose most of what made them powerful.

    You don't block with a katana. At most, you slightly tap a blade coming toward you while moving your sword in the opposite direction to alter its course.

    Sure, I understand that weapons were made to overcome specific kinds of defenses and that they work best for that. You're incorrect, above, when you claim the katana's folding was developed because of poor quality steel. It was designed to make the sword sharp, flexible and heavy, and give it a curve.

    Anyways, in modern context the only issue that matters is: how fast can you put zombies down?

    You have to be ready for the coming zombie apocalypse.
    Last edited by Singular; 09-22-2013 at 08:10 PM.

  7. #67
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Lightsabers.

    But that's just wishful thinking.
    ~Sarlona~
    Maelodic - Gigglelock| | Zeriyn - Wolf Caster
    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Praise Dog, and Maelodic, his prophet.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Claiming that the katana was superior period, shows that either you have been watching too many movies, or are otherwise ignorant of the issue.
    You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

    Nearly everything you have said regarding the Katana is wrong. You know absolutely nothing about the weapon based on your posts.
    Last edited by Ddodoesitagain; 09-22-2013 at 10:02 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post
    Ahhh.. so they are....

    I want an endgame named item katana tho... hehe....
    There's also a Bastard Sword model that looks like a katana. I went to a lot of trouble to find two of them for my dual bastard sword juggernaut... some might say too much trouble :P lol

  10. #70
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ddodoesitagain View Post
    You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

    Nearly everything you have said regarding the Katana is wrong. You know absolutely nothing about the weapon based on your posts.
    You have proven yourself ignorant on almost everything so far, so please dsprove it by making an intelligent comment.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  11. #71
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    You don't block with a katana. At most, you slightly tap a blade coming toward you while moving your sword in the opposite direction to alter its course.

    Sure, I understand that weapons were made to overcome specific kinds of defenses and that they work best for that. You're incorrect, above, when you claim the katana's folding was developed because of poor quality steel. It was designed to make the sword sharp, flexible and heavy, and give it a curve.

    Anyways, in modern context the only issue that matters is: how fast can you put zombies down?

    You have to be ready for the coming zombie apocalypse.
    The katanas folding was made to overcome th elimitations of materials, and it was done rather well. Ever heard of toledo steel, btw. Tht would have given the katana all those qualities without the folding, since it was superior.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    Lightsabers.

    But that's just wishful thinking.
    Lightsabers are already implemented.
    Celestia, Brightest Star of The Day.

  13. #73
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    The katanas folding was made to overcome th elimitations of materials, and it was done rather well. Ever heard of toledo steel, btw. Tht would have given the katana all those qualities without the folding, since it was superior.
    False in that using only a hard steel would defeat the some of the purpose of the folding.

    The folding was done to create a blade that would disperse the vibrations you get from slamming the weapon into objects - people, armor - to cause the sword itself to have a curved, slicing edge, and to make it both sharp and strong. The sword curves because of the folding, not because the curve is hammered into the blade. If you used toledo steel, you would not get the curve, subsequently losing the slicing edge, and the weapon would be less able to handle vibrations. It would also not be as sharp.

    You're additionally correct in that impurities were removed from the repeated heating and hammering, and that the folding overcame the poor quality of the steel. In later years, they were able to achieve greater quality of steel though.
    Last edited by Singular; 09-23-2013 at 09:03 AM. Reason: correction; incorrect information

  14. #74
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    To put the discussion to an end, let's just say that for our purposes katanas are utterly boring in DnD and are basically the Bastard Sword's annoying cousin no one cares about. No need to split the same weapon profile into two weapon types; at worst, maybe ask for more katana-like skins for BS.

  15. #75
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    False in that using only a hard steel would defeat the some of the purpose of the folding.

    The folding was done to create a blade that would disperse the vibrations you get from slamming the weapon into objects - people, armor - to cause the sword itself to have a curved, slicing edge, and to make it both sharp and strong. The sword curves because of the folding, not because the curve is hammered into the blade. If you used toledo steel, you would not get the curve, subsequently losing the slicing edge, and the weapon would be less able to handle vibrations. It would also not be as sharp.

    You're additionally correct in that impurities were removed from the repeated heating and hammering, and that the folding overcame the poor quality of the steel. In later years, they were able to achieve greater quality of steel though.
    You dont need folding to have a curved edge, thats done by other means. It is far easier to make a curved blade than a straight on, since the easiest way to botch when hammering is to make the blade curve.

    And the reason for folding is this. If you have too little of the good steel, you can fold/plait/whever it with steel of lessewer quality to make the whole stronger. And if you have 2 kinds of bad steel, you can fold them to bring out the good qualities of both. The reduction of vibrations was rarely done by folding, since the hilt, location of sweetspot and the shape of the blade were way more important in doing so.

    What the folding does NOT do is give the weapon any mystic qualities, it is just the best way of overcoming weaknesses, and making them strengths.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

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