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  1. #1
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default Bards, Rangers and Paladins need better spells

    It's odd that bards get the spellcraft skill, but don't get any spells that gain spellpower bonuses from this skill.

    As for rangers and paladins, they have a bunch of spells that can be replaced with items, potions or item clickies. I think that rangers are worse off than paladins in terms of their self-healing and survivability. They don't get the cure light wounds spell until level *8*!

    Perhaps a spell pass is in order?

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    /Signed.

    Oh and make the bloody Summons scale with Ranger Levels for god's sake.

    A CR 4 Young Razorcat at level 14 is just insulting. (Especially since anyone can have a CR 14 Air Ellie at level 4 if they run Cove).

  3. #3
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    /Signed.

    Oh and make the bloody Summons scale with Ranger Levels for god's sake.

    A CR 4 Young Razorcat at level 14 is just insulting. (Especially since anyone can have a CR 14 Air Ellie at level 4 if they run Cove).
    The ranger summon spells are not meant to be combat worthy. They are meant to be an aid to stealth as a distraction so you can sneak by and use that lever/switch/door/whatever.

    /signed on the more spells for paladins, bards, and rangers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    The ranger summon spells are not meant to be combat worthy. They are meant to be an aid to stealth as a distraction so you can sneak by and use that lever/switch/door/whatever.

    /signed on the more spells for paladins, bards, and rangers
    well that doesnt seem very rangery, summoning a pet just to be cannon fodder. plus you cant control them like hires anyway. plus dont monsters aggro you once your pet aggroes them and dies? also plus, can you summon while stealthed without breaking stealth?

    summons need a pass in general, make their CL a function of your caster level, with higher summons having better attacks/spells/damage/"gear" stats/etc., but base hit die scales with caster level.

    But regarding the main question...I only have Ranger so thats all I can speak to, but other than a few buffs (which can be potted/ship buffed/etc) all they have is self heals. most of their spells are pointless to slot, ie waterbreathing, all their CC skills dont have realistic DCs, and summons are useless.

    That being said, they do have unique buffs for stealth, and self heals arent bad now with Devotion in DWS (for the moment) and Emp Heal. but a quick pass is probably due, figure out exactly what Rangers are "supposed" to do with their blue bar and align it a little more in that direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    But regarding the main question...I only have Ranger so thats all I can speak to, but other than a few buffs (which can be potted/ship buffed/etc) all they have is self heals. most of their spells are pointless to slot, ie waterbreathing, all their CC skills dont have realistic DCs, and summons are useless.
    Wow. I need to find that Ram's Might and Freedom of Movement potion vendor.

    Rangers and Paladins are tertiary casters. Their spells are not intended to be combat effective nukes or crowd control. If that is what you wanted from them, then you are doing it very, very wrong. The spells that they are able to cast are extremely limited because they are a tiny perk on top of their combat abilities.

    In addition to being quite viable pure, Rangers in particular have become an extremely strong splash class, either both deep and shallow. Giving them meaningful Crowd Control via magic rather than Paralyzing Arrows or something would be quite ridiculous from a class balance standpoint.

    Paladins are in much worse shape, but then they never really have had a good place in DDO. The different development teams we have had over the years never really have figured out how to make Paladins fit well. But giving them an increased spell selection is not going to change that.

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    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    well that doesnt seem very rangery, summoning a pet just to be cannon fodder. plus you cant control them like hires anyway. plus dont monsters aggro you once your pet aggroes them and dies? also plus, can you summon while stealthed without breaking stealth?
    There are guides, both written and video on how to use summons to aid stealth play. They explain it better than I can. Suffice it to say that they are useful to stealth if you understand how.

    I still think rangers should get animal companions (preferably a bird just so its not the same thing as a druids wolf), but I seriously doubt it will ever happen. Doing something with enhancements like the PM skeletons would even work for me. Rangers were never, and have never been, summoners. I don't think they should be going that route with their spells.

    The spells I would like them to add would be things to aid stealth and ranged/twf combat.
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    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    If I were giving rangers and paladins more spells, what I'd do is give them their own weapon-enhancing spells, similar to artificer infusions.

    For example, paladins would get a spell that gives them ghostbane on their weapon(s), or cold iron DR plus extra damage vs. chaotic, etc. Rangers would get an infusion that gives increased sneak attack damge. Furthermore, paladins would gain spells that give sacred bonuses to PRR and AC, while rangers would gain a spell or two that gives them a dodge bonus due to concealment. These are just off the top of my head. Not sure what I would give bards, since I don't play that class much.

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    I'd like to see more spells for everybody (particularly the original classes), as it's a great way to add diversity and range to existing character options.

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    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    It's odd that bards get the spellcraft skill, but don't get any spells that gain spellpower bonuses from this skill.

    As for rangers and paladins, they have a bunch of spells that can be replaced with items, potions or item clickies. I think that rangers are worse off than paladins in terms of their self-healing and survivability. They don't get the cure light wounds spell until level *8*!

    Perhaps a spell pass is in order?
    Sure, at some point, but I don't think this high up on the priority list. In terms of Paladin spells there are a number of useless spells that could use an update, but on the other hand there are some really good spells to use your limited mana on: divine favor, resist energy, cure moderate, cure serious, zeal, death ward. That's not to mention the raise dead, resurrection and true res you can get if you spend the APs, or divine sacrifice, which every Paladin should be spamming in combat.

    More importantly, Paladins could you some improvements to their enhancements, but that's another discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    Sure, at some point, but I don't think this high up on the priority list. In terms of Paladin spells there are a number of useless spells that could use an update, but on the other hand there are some really good spells to use your limited mana on: divine favor, resist energy, cure moderate, cure serious, zeal, death ward. That's not to mention the raise dead, resurrection and true res you can get if you spend the APs, or divine sacrifice, which every Paladin should be spamming in combat.

    More importantly, Paladins could you some improvements to their enhancements, but that's another discussion.
    why would anyone spend APs on to get raise/rez when you can just buy the scrolls? I know its good to get a quickened rez off in a bad situation but I find AP's are pretty tight on my paladin and I get more out of my AP's on my other toons than I seem to get via investing in my paladin enhancements.

    Yeah they could both do with some better spells, and some more work on spells that seem pretty weak now, or useless, especially paladins. I wouldn't object to both getting a little more sp especially paladins, got to keep a lot of short duration buffs up for dps, and spam divine sacrifice and heal themselves., and maybe rangers get cure light earlier say at level 4 and maybe front load the sp a little bit, not enough to encourage shallow splashes so much, but to give maybe slightly more benifits to new players?

  11. #11
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    why would anyone spend APs on to get raise/rez when you can just buy the scrolls? I know its good to get a quickened rez off in a bad situation but I find AP's are pretty tight on my paladin and I get more out of my AP's on my other toons than I seem to get via investing in my paladin enhancements.

    Yeah they could both do with some better spells, and some more work on spells that seem pretty weak now, or useless, especially paladins. I wouldn't object to both getting a little more sp especially paladins, got to keep a lot of short duration buffs up for dps, and spam divine sacrifice and heal themselves., and maybe rangers get cure light earlier say at level 4 and maybe front load the sp a little bit, not enough to encourage shallow splashes so much, but to give maybe slightly more benifits to new players?
    I agree there are definitely better ways to spend your APs. I was just mentioning it.
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    I don't know if I agree with the premise that all three classes should have a mini spell pass, like many of us thought would happen with the "spell pass" but never happened. But I'd go along with it if it was a few tweaks for ranger and Pali; but a real spell pass for Bards.

    Pali's got a little buff from Divine might being instant and lasting longer, not that it's technically a spell, but I think things like "Angleskin" could certainly use a pass to make the more in line with modern game numbers. Certainly Pali's deserve to have a devotion line of spell power back, seeing as the ranger players lobbied successfully to get it. Right now you have to devote mass AP's to being S&B if you want spell power for your cures. Pali's are rather tragically negleted by Turbine because people who play only Pali's think it's the best thing since sliced bread. And the class is popular because it's easy button "BYOH"...

    Rangers are not really supposed to be a magical class, much like Pali's they are given a few spells to differentiate them from straight melee's Cure light wounds is there to represent minor healing empathy... the fact that you can amp this up with 200 spell power and 40 or 50% heal amp and make it useful is not really intended. Rams might is supposed to be flavor (Think along the lines of: the hunter drinks the blood of his kill gaining some of it's power) but was accidentally over powered (never supposed to be +3 damage for a level 1 spell)

    Bards are pigeonholed into either doing no DPS at all, or being a Warchanter weak melee with some buffs and good self heals.

    Spellsinger got nerfed in the pass in favor of buffing virtuoso by giving it slightly nerfed Spellsinger songs. Meanwhile spellsinger bards got those nerfed spellsinger songs and some Virtuoso fascinate buffs that are useless in PUG's unless you manage to get everyone to agree to lower their DPS in the name of letting the Bard do something besides pike (but you can always be a warchanter instead, you know buffs n' melee).

    Try using "shout" and "greater shout" if there's a more finicky pain to target DPS spell in the game I don't know what it is... I pronounce them "totally useless" simply because to actually play a character that uses them regularly would be so unfun that it would make you want to quit playing. I actually have a Bard that maxed Sonic spell power and crits before the pass, and let me tell you it's sad when you get more utility out of a level 1 and level 2 sonic spell than you do the level 5 greater shout... and don't even have regular shout slotted any more. When you managed to build in 500+ sonic spell power and 25% sonic crits (which was a fantastic number before the pass) but you don't use the highest level sonic spells, then something is seriously wrong with those spells!

    So a Bard is stuck doing nothing but CC/Buffing or going warchanter... Mind you I'm not asking for them to be good spell DPS, just like Warchanter is not good Melee DPS, just "meh" spell DPS. Something to do if you're not melee, and no ones paying attention to your fascinates.

    At the very least I would love to see them make Greater shout less of a finicky spell and improve the AEO (it's supposed to be conical but it ends up being single target 80% of the time and double target 10% of the time, that's only 90% you say? yeah that's how often you will simply miss/not hit anything (despite being aimed correctly and hard targeted) or get the "you are not facing" etc. in other words that's how finicky it is) and double the range (it's not far from a touch spell)... Give Bards Sound lance (D&D spell) and a Sonic DOT. and add "greater Sound burst" AOE. At least then a Spellsinger would have a DPS option.

    Then add a new Bard tree with the missing "Wall of Sound" stuff from the white boarding they were pretending was "work in progress" for the enhancement pass.

    It's sad but the best min/maxed Sonic build now has ZERO Bard levels (think a Shiradi Air Sorc with Wiz and Druid splashes which is what my Bard will 20LR into at some point).
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-17-2013 at 10:26 PM.
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    Rangers need a pet that you can name...its terrible that this is not included for rangers.

    i think rangers and paly's have ok spells considering that spells are not supposed to be potent, however they need to be able to have a better selection as in...having more types available at once.

    cant speak for bards as i dont really play bards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    It's odd that bards get the spellcraft skill, but don't get any spells that gain spellpower bonuses from this skill.

    As for rangers and paladins, they have a bunch of spells that can be replaced with items, potions or item clickies. I think that rangers are worse off than paladins in terms of their self-healing and survivability. They don't get the cure light wounds spell until level *8*!

    Perhaps a spell pass is in order?
    Rangers are extremely well rounded class that gets almost half of the relevant non casting non tanking abilities in the game for free. They simply dont need any buffing. They are hell of strong as they are, filling their role excellently. As said by someone before me, please direct me to closest Ram might and FoM vendor.
    That said, their summoning spells suck and should be improved along with summoning as whole concept in DDO.

    Paladins needs to find their role in DDO as a class, I agree with that, but their spell selection is excellent - as MEELE class, they have True Ressurection and all lower tiers of it opened to them, they have cures, deathward and two very potent and unique abilities: Zeal and Sacrifice.

    Bards I have no idea about, cause I havent run one yet. It is part of my future TR plan thou...

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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    Rangers are extremely well rounded class that gets almost half of the relevant non casting non tanking abilities in the game for free. They simply dont need any buffing. They are hell of strong as they are, filling their role excellently. As said by someone before me, please direct me to closest Ram might and FoM vendor.
    That said, their summoning spells suck and should be improved along with summoning as whole concept in DDO.

    Paladins needs to find their role in DDO as a class, I agree with that, but their spell selection is excellent - as MEELE class, they have True Ressurection and all lower tiers of it opened to them, they have cures, deathward and two very potent and unique abilities: Zeal and Sacrifice.

    Bards I have no idea about, cause I havent run one yet. It is part of my future TR plan thou...
    Just out of curiosity, but are you aware of what will be happening to Rangers soon with regards Devotion Enhancements?

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    Community Member Sianys's Avatar
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    Meh. I'm on the fence regarding the spells, though I will say that better Summon Monster-types would be great. I'm happy with the DPS and everything else. The one thing that has bugged me has been - as I've perceived it - the near uselessness of Animal Empathy. Has anyone who has played a ranger used it with any frequency, if at all? I have a feeling that the answer is "no," but I'm open to surprise. Regardless, let's make THAT count for something, such as a bonus to those summons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, but are you aware of what will be happening to Rangers soon with regards Devotion Enhancements?
    Nope, not even a little bit - I am generally finding new stuff from release notes which I read while downloading said change. Would you elaborate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    Nope, not even a little bit - I am generally finding new stuff from release notes which I read while downloading said change. Would you elaborate?
    Currently Rangers can get 75 Pos Spell Power by spending a few points in the two DWS Empathy Enhancements.

    Turbine are changing that, it's not in the Release Notes, but go check out Lamm. Those two Enhancements will now give 20 (Between them) and the rest of the Pos Spell Power are placed in the DWS Core Enhancements.

    Not meant as a personal attack here, but being pigeon-holed into DWS if I want any form of Self Healing is not my definition of "Well Rounded".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    Currently Rangers can get 75 Pos Spell Power by spending a few points in the two DWS Empathy Enhancements.

    Turbine are changing that, it's not in the Release Notes, but go check out Lamm. Those two Enhancements will now give 20 (Between them) and the rest of the Pos Spell Power are placed in the DWS Core Enhancements.

    Not meant as a personal attack here, but being pigeon-holed into DWS if I want any form of Self Healing is not my definition of "Well Rounded".
    that really sucks...........I hate how they have done things like that to really pigeon hole all the self healing into heavy investment into *one* class prestige. I know they are trying to kill off the people who min max and get the most out of light splashes but it really hurts deep splashed rangers and pure as well.

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