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  1. #1
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    Exclamation War priest analysis and review

    First off the fact that I have to PAY to reset my enhancements is ridiculous. If you are changing the enhancement trees on us, the least you could do is reset our enhancements initially for free…

    Keep the Protection Tree as is and add War Priest to Cleric only. This works well with the planned addition of Divine Avenger to FvS. This solves the problem of FvS not having access to Domains and Turn Undead. It also maintains the Protection tree as an option, avoiding the waste of previous work.

    War Priest
    http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_warpriest.htm
    FvS would automatically be disqualified due to lack of Turn Undead, not to mention that some may not even have the requisite spells. Furthermore if FvS want Turn Undeads they can get them. Finally keeping War Priest a Cleric Tree leaves room for keep Protection and ensures that Favoured Soul’s Divine Avenger remains unique to FvS)

    War Domain
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists....htm#warDomain
    Note well that neither Haste nor Blur is on this list. Furthermore, FvS do NOT get domains, so if these remain domains, FvS should NOT get access to them. Of course, Clerics are still waiting for actual domains…

    Other References:
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Warpriest_enhancements
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ancements-list


    That being said, moving right along to the Review…


    CORE ABILITIES
    Arguably no better than Protection which it is unfortunately replacing. With the exception of Implacable Foe, Core abilities are lackluster and pale next to other trees.

    Should include some PRR increase (+2-5 per lvl etc)
    Ideally would also include either Universal Spell Power or Positive Spell Power in some fashion (0.5 – 1.0 per point? 1-2 per Core Ability?)
    While Light Spell Power is good. Fire Spell Power is significantly lacking


    Smite Foe
    Cooldown needs to be reduced. Even 12s would be a major improvement, and significantly increase the value of the follow on abilities. Or could be something like -1s per Core Ability or -2s per additional effect, etc.

    Resilience of Battle
    If PRR not added to every core, then swap DR for PRR. Possibly add +HP as well. This should also grant Tower Shield Proficiency.

    Sanctuary*
    First, this should be removed and replaced with Weapon Group Training granting melee proficiency (and ideally tower shield prof as well if not done above with RoB). As for Sanctuary itself, this needs to stack and ideally would be a percentage increase instead of an absolute number (+%). Duration could be raised to 30s. Any takers want to roll a Cleridan and check if it stacks properly with Sacred Defence yet? Regardless, leaving Sanctuary as Protection only makes more sense – especially since there is no WP option to improve Sanctuary.

    Blur*/Haste
    As mention neither of these spells are part of the War Domain and for that matter FvS do not get Domains. Blur should be removed and left as part of Protection being replaced by an AoE heal. Haste and the PBAOE heal could swap positions depending upon the specific heal selected. In any event, these need to be SLAs rather than granted spells – use the reuse Archmage versions (Illusion II: Blur 3SP/6s & Transmutation III: Haste 6SP/6s)

    Implacable Foe
    Duration should be longer or the cool down should be reduced. Perhaps using special Bard Song mechanics… 6s + 6s per Cleric level? Should also reduce Divine Vessel by more, possibly even in half.


    TIER ONE ABILITIES
    Not perfect, but off to a good start. Some nice early abilities with potential; however, individually many of the abilities have problems that require attention to be equalized or corrected when compared to their corresponding enhancements in other trees.

    Divine Might
    Should use Turn Undead and ideally would fully stack rather than being Insight. Make it something like a ‘Turn’ type bonus… this would also fix the Paladin issue.

    Toughness
    Should be increased to +10 per rank LIKE EVERY OTHER Toughness (+10/+20/+30)

    Righteous Weapons (I)
    Really require more Favoured Weapons, especially since they would be so easy to add. Regardless this could be improved by granting Weapon Focus: <favoured weapon>. Use the selector to choose appropriate faith.

    Sacred Touch*
    Removed and returned to Protection. Replaced with ‘something’… Low level AOE heal perhaps? (mAid/mCLW – heck how about Mass Cure Minor Wounds!?!?!) If kept, bonuses need to be at least doubled and probably tripled and it needs to work with ALL healing (Aura/Burst/Ameliorating Strike/Heal/mHeal/Vigor/Regeneration/etc) rather than merely positive energy damage spells.

    Awareness
    Could stand to have the + saves vs traps added to each level…


    TIER TWO ABILITIES
    Probably the best of the War Priest tiers. Multiple decent enhancements that are unique, flavourful and useful. Small changes are all that is necessary to make some of them really stand out.

    Smite Weakness
    Increase stack duration. As is, it is very difficult to increase stacks since they can completely expire before you can smite again to renew them. 5s would be adequate, but 10s would be best. Could also offer a cool down reduction to Smite Foe (-2s/-3s?) Further, could offer multiple ranks increasing initial stack size and cool down reduction (4-7 w/ -1s; 5-8 w/ -2s; 6-9 w/ -3s etc) perhaps with a reduction to 1AP/rank.

    Wall of Steel
    Pretty good. Could also offer Tower Shield Proficiency if this is not granted elsewhere (maybe rank3 bonus only?)

    Righteous Weapons (II)
    Could be improved by granting Weapon Specialization: <favoured weapon>

    Inflame
    Does capture the essence of the War Priest ability, although mechanically it is working quite differently; ideally this would be a ‘song’ (just like the Bard ability) with its proper duration (would throw a bone to Cards and other Divine/Bard multis and open up Fatesinger synergy). However short of that change, it should be powered by Turns or at the very least Spell Points. It should also last longer and progress significantly faster: +2/+4/+6 needs to be the minimum advancement and +3/+6/+9 would not be out of line. As a minimum War Priest core abilities could further extend the duration.

    Inflame: Saving Throws
    Should as a minimum progress as recommended for Inflame (2/4/6 or 3/6/9); however, it could easily be integrated with the core Inflame ability freeing up a slot for a completely different ability.


    TIER THREE ABILITIES
    Having peaked early, tier3 begins a downwards slide in relative power to other Trees. Requires moderate changes to pull even with many other Trees’ Tier3s.

    Burden of Sin
    Current change could do slightly better and go to 15/35/60% (+15/+20/+25 from +15/+15/+20) Stack duration could be extended.

    Righteous Weapons (III)
    Could be improved by granting Greater Weapon Focus: <favoured weapon>

    Inflame: Energy Absorption
    Should be increased to 10/20/30% but could go to 15/30/45%. Also as per Inflame: Saving Throws, could simply be integrated into the base Inflame ability freeing up a tier3 slot.

    Stat
    Add +1 Constitution as option please


    TIER FOUR ABILITIES
    The current Tier4 abilities are deficient in comparison to other Trees. Small changes would increase their standing greatly and serious change would make some of them really stand out.

    Ameliorating Strike
    Current changes make this a decent ability but it can still be improved further. Similar to Smite Weakness the reduction to 1d2 opens the possibility of multiple ranks. These could also increase the restoration ability as well: 1d2 w/ Lesesr Resto; 1d3 w/ Resto; 1d4 w/ Greater Resto. Further 1 second reductions to Smite Foe’s cool down per rank would keep this worthy of 2AP/rank.

    Light Guard
    Decent as far as guards go anyway. Make sure that other Tree guard effects benefit from the triggering on Zero Damage buff.

    Righteous Weapons (IV)
    Improved by granting Greater Weapon Specialization: <favoured weapon>

    Stat
    Add +1 Constitution as additional option


    TIER FIVE ABILITIES
    These abilities really have to carry their weight, especially when considering that Radiant Savant offers Positive Energy Aura for Clerics at least. Compared to the constant healing of the aura most of these abilities are found lacking. Indeed, massive improvements are necessary to compete with options given that unlike the lower tiers only a single Tier5 level can be accessed.

    Divine Power
    Not terrible, but certainly not worth 2AP. While maxed BAB is nice, as this is a cheaply cast spell and the enhancement STR is essentially worthless by lvl12, reduce cost to 1AP. Could even change the enhancement bonus to alchemical. Conversely replace Divine Power with Righteous Might. This could be done easily by merely doubling the Ram’s Might spell (+4 Size STR & +6 damage) or properly including the +2 Size CON, +2 AC and 9 DR (and/or PRR) in addition to the +4 Size STR and damage. Properly done Righteous Might has much better synergy with the rest of the War Priest abilities and more importantly is unique rather than a rehashed castable spell. Swapping places with Divine Vessel or Magic Backlash would permit Righteous Might to use Wrathful Weapons as a prerequisite if necessary.

    Divine Vessel
    The time limit on stacking needs to go; also off hand strikes do not seem to proc stack increases even if no stack has been gained recently (hard to test to be fair). Reduce required total stack for activation to 20 (with Implacable Foe further reducing to 15 or even 10.)

    Wrathful Weapons
    Improved by granting Superior Weapon Focus: <favoured weapon>. Could also stand to proc the Light Damage effect on crits rather than vorpals. Perhaps as a multi rank enhancement: 1d4/2d4/3d4.

    Magic Backlash*
    Move to Protection (Occult Slayer or both!) to free up a tier5 slot… Regardless needs to be when EN attacks with a spell and knockdown chance probably should be increased (15/30/45 or even 20/40/60). Either way, damage should have nothing to do with it and it should have the chance to trigger on ANY and ALL spells (AoE or otherwise that potentially affect the character)

    Divine Intervention*
    Should be returned to Protection – even then Protection provided more (+2 WIS) for less cost (only 1AP), so it should certainly be reduced in cost for War Priest. Regardless, DI needs serious improvement. First it needs to properly work with chars that have extended Unconsciousness (Die Harder/Eternal Defender/etc), next it needs to prevent unconsciousness keeping the character alive and active, and finally it needs to heal significantly more than 10d4. As the Protection capstone it should be at least equivalent to Eternal Defender (+250 positive energy)… if it remains WP tier5 then perhaps 10x/5d4 per (healer/char/?) level or 10x/5d4 per point of heal skill? That said Reactive Heal is +250 positive energy as well so that should be the baseline.


    ADDITIONS
    Tier 3 Weapon Ability:
    Articles of Faith [Angle of Vengeance Tier2]. Astounded that this is not already there. Ties the favoured weapon into casting and attacking. This is a must do in order to salvage the tree as it currently is. Alternatively included automatically as part of Smite Foe.

    Tier 4 Healing Ability:
    Some form of mass healing. Ideally a SLA rather than Burst/Aura. War Priest’s get mCLW & mHeal – split the difference and you have mCSW. A mCSW SLA would be a great PBAoE heal. Could possibly include a Mass Restoration effect as well (similar to the combined Cure and Resto in the Bottomless Flask of Rum)

    Alternatively this could be something as weak as mAid (on a fast cooldown for a low spell point cost it would not be terrible) if the Blur Core ability was replaced with the real heal instead. Haste should go back to the fourth core and this would be the new fifth. This also leaves Blur in Protection where it belongs.


    Other options – in addition to the two blank spots, War Priest abilities marked with * could be removed and replaced with some/all of the following:
    Weapon Group Training [Warchanter Tier5] – Gain Martial Weapon proficiency and +2 tohit & damage
    Armorer [Warchanter Tier5] – Gain Heavy Armour and Tower Shield proficiency.
    Aura of Fear (Menace) [Angel of Vengeance Core3] – 15 meter aura with -2 saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks (or just mirror Aura of Menace with 15 meter aura with -2 saving throws, attack, and armor class)
    Extra Action Boost [Kensai Tier1] – additional action boosts to increase uses of Inflame

  2. #2
    Community Member mezzorco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    CORE ABILITIES
    Arguably no better than Protection which it is unfortunately replacing. With the exception of Implacable Foe, Core abilities are lackluster and pale next to other trees.

    Should include some PRR increase (+2-5 per lvl etc)
    Ideally would also include either Universal Spell Power or Positive Spell Power in some fashion (0.5 – 1.0 per point? 1-2 per Core Ability?)
    While Light Spell Power is good. Fire Spell Power is significantly lacking
    I like PRR idea. About light/fire spellpower, simply replace fire with positive.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    Resilience of Battle
    This should also grant Tower Shield Proficiency.
    Exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    Righteous Weapons (I) / (II) / (III) / (IV)
    Really require more Favoured Weapons, especially since they would be so easy to add. Regardless this could be improved by granting Weapon Focus: <favoured weapon>. Use the selector to choose appropriate faith.
    Normally, weapon improving enhancements cost 2 AP and grant +1 hit/damage to one handed weapon, +1/+2 to two handed.
    Here, you get +1 weapon enhancement, so +1/+1. Also, if your weapon is an implement, you gain +3 USP. I think this weapon line is fine as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    ADDITIONS
    Tier 3 Weapon Ability:
    Articles of Faith [Angle of Vengeance Tier2]. Astounded that this is not already there. Ties the favoured weapon into casting and attacking. This is a must do in order to salvage the tree as it currently is. Alternatively included automatically as part of Smite Foe.
    Signed. Not sure about implementation, but Warpriest should include Articles of Faith.

  3. #3
    Community Member Deamus's Avatar
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    /signed

    The only part i disagree is the turn undead use for divine might . At the moment with sp is a huge improvement. You can dps but also use auras and bursts .
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  4. #4
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    Exclamation Analysis

    There are a couple points for comparative analysis. First, there is the PnP roots of the PrC as way of background. Second, a look at similar PrEs/Trees for other classes; third a look at competing options and finally a look at what War Priest is replacing.

    PnP
    In PnP a War Priest is at least the equivalent of an equal level Paladin, and in most respects generally superior due to the increased casting ability. Clerical spell buffs make up any difference in melee capacity and individual and group healing is vastly superior. Defensively the Paladin might have a slight edge (especially if in a ‘tank’ PrC) but in PnP casting generally trumps all.

    Obviously having the War Priest PrE completely outclass Paladin is a problem – though how much of a problem is up for debate. Even in DDO casters have a power advantage over melee, and thus due to class requirements WP is starting from a stronger base. Now Paladin is also viewed as one of the weaker classes in game so perhaps having them all re-roll to War Priest would be a bonus, but short of that WP should not completely overshadow Paladin.


    KotC (Paladin melee DPS)
    WP offers less DPS than KotC and virtually no tank equivalent to DoS (Sacred Defender). Even though KotC got screwed (really needs to over the bonus versus BOTH Outsiders and Undead) it still contains a number of melee DPS increases that have broad applicability and short cooldowns although Paladin/KotC Smites are limited they fortunately regen 1 every 90s.

    While Smite Foe works on any mob, Smite Evil only has its maximum effect on evil mobs. Although a Paladin can use all his smites up within a minute the slow recharge of the ability means that in a long sustained fight Smite Foe comes out ahead. Essentially any continuous battle of at least 3 minutes brings Smite Foe to a minimum of parity with Smite Evil; by 5 minutes SF is solidly in the lead with no chance of SE ever catching up. This is before even considering their respective Smite upgrades: Exalted Smite marginally increases damage, but Smite Foe gains stacking Vulnerability and AoE healing. For a PrE ability to so grossly outclass a totem feature of a class speaks volumes. Not that Smite Foe needs a nerf, rather Smite Evil needs massive buffs (not the least being faster regen). Thus it is fair to say Smite Foe is appropriately functional.

    The other DPS increases are Righteous/Wrathful Weapons and Divine Vessel for War Priest and Divine Sacrifice, Censure and Holy Retribution for KotC. Righteous Weapons’s grant of a constant +1 enhancement (+4 total) is generally going to be better than Divine Sacrifice; however, equating their AP expenditure brings DS into rough parity. Wrathful Weapons and Censure are similar in that they are on-Vorpal abilities, but between WW’s additional always on +1 enhancement and Censure’s limit of only Evil & Chaotic Outsiders gives WW the win. Fortunately for Paladins, Divine Vessel’s goofy Divine Conduit implementation ensures that Holy Retribution comes out ahead. KotC also gets some Action Boosts (Attack & Damage) but with no way to increase them (number, duration, magnitude) they are not as useful as Inflame – even ignoring that Inflame affects the entire party!

    Divine Might is a bit of a wash given that both WP & KotC have access to it, although it bares mention that KotC DM uses Turns while WP uses SP (undoubtedly due to the poor decision to include FvS…). WP gets it as a Tier1 ability while KotC must wait until Tier2. WP DM is also cheaper at 1AP/rank with KotC DM costing twice as much… hopefully KotC DM benefits from this cost reduction. Ideally DM would also get a bonus type make over to ‘Divine’ or ‘Turn’.

    For the remainder of the enhancements, KotC seems to have the edge due to slightly better buff possibilities. However, WP’s Implacable Foe definitely trumps KotC’s Weapons of Good.

    As a whole KotC does OK in comparison but the individual DPS abilities do not stack up well. Only KotC’s Core damage bonus keeps it ahead and even then mostly just against the KotC’s favourite enemy. Thus War Priest not only does well in this comparison, it basically overshadows KotC completely. A sad day to be a Paladin indeed…


    Warchanter (Bard melee DPS)
    An interesting comparison since most dismiss it out of hand, but these two PrEs probably have the most in common conceptually: they are the melee DPS option of otherwise ‘support’ classes. While Bardical abilities bring more base DPS than Clerical ones, as we have seen WP does significantly increase melee Cleric DPS.

    While Bards have less base HP than Clerics, Warchanter grants double the bonus HP than War Priest and for far less. WC also have better damage avoidance, although WP’s heavy armour grants better damage mitigation.

    WC’s Enchant Weapon can apply to any weapon being used (and cast on others) but generally there are better weapon buffs available (Elemental Weapons is easily scrollable for example); however, WP’s Righteous Weapon only applies the Faith’s favoured weapon greatly limiting choice. Equalized for AP the two enhancements are roughly equal but RW scales higher for a linear increase in cost.

    Despite Armour & Weapon Group Training being available to WC they are noticeably absent from WP. While Clerics are naturally proficient with Heavy Armour, presumably some FvS would benefit from it. Although WP heavily favours using the favoured weapon, the inability to access other weapons is a serious disadvantage. WC easily comes out ahead on choice and especially the lack of necessity to splash other classes.

    WP’s Core AC increases and Wall of Steel are slightly better defensively than WC’s Rough and Ready, although the latter is available sooner.

    One major difference is that WC significantly buffs a Bard’s totem abilities (songs) while WC does no such thing for Clerics/FvS. Not only does WC increases base Bard songs it also adds several new distinct specialty ones; WP’s only acquire two new spells that are easily replicated.

    Comparing BAB abilities, WP’s Divine Power is already lackluster due to replicating a lvl4 spell and the ease of acquiring +6 (or greater) enhancement STR, although the permanency is useful and saves spell points/slots. WC’s Victory Song costs less, but has significantly shorter base duration of 20s – fortunately vorpalling extends this indefinitely – and is only activated by singing Inspire Courage, which luckily Bards tend to do. WP does slightly better but neither is ideal.

    Smite Foe and its upgrades (Smite Weakness & Ameliorating Strike) from WP initially look to be better than Gathering Cold and its upgrades (Iced Edges & Northwind) from WC since combining damage, debuffing and healing in a single attack seems to be the complete package, especially since Gathering Cold’s attacks have critical and vorpal activation requirements; however, as a toggle Gathering Cold is active far more than Smite Foe’s 15s cooldown timer permitting many more attacks and thus proc chances in the same amount of time. Further, WC’s Howl of the North’s constant +1 crit multiplier is vastly superior to WP’s Wrathful Weapons +1 enhancement. While WP maintains some versatility, WC would seem to take the melee DPS increase.

    WP group buffs amount to Inflame and Implacable Foe. Fully upgraded, Inflame’s short duration and limited number of charges reduce its usage to a mere 2.5 minutes between rests. +4 attack & damage is only equal to a regular Bard’s Inspire Courage that lasts significantly longer and can be used far more often. Implacable Foe does much better as a group buff providing a large DPS and survivability bonus but with a meager 18s duration (and 5s non-refreshed time) and a 5 minute cooldown (6% uptime). Finally, both Inflame and Implacable Foe also have far shorter ranges/smaller AoE than Bard Songs.

    Conversely a WC brings +7 atk & dmg that initially lasts longer than Inflame’s entire time but with a duration that can be extended beyond 8 minutes. In addition to an upgraded Inspire Courage, a WC has a number of additional songs that provide unique party benefits such as Greater Heroism, DR and Doublestrike that combine to narrow any DPS and survivability gap. Indeed, WC’s Warmaster song completely outdoes Inflame by itself, admittedly for only half the duration but with many more uses. WC also has Rallying Cry (and Sprint Boost for personal use as well) as an Action Boost to dispel Fear effects and grant a movement & save bonus to the party.

    Ultimately given the roughly equal benefits of both PrEs, and then only because of WP’s Implacable Foe’s potential, the WC wins if for no other reason that songs can be kept up constantly even though the WC probably brings more party DPS and additional survivability than WP in the majority of situations. This study is particularly noteworthy as in PnP the WP has no such duration limits on Inflame/Implacable Foe (and significantly greater ranges) making them far closer to PnP Bard songs. Also, as Rally is a PnP WP totem ability it is noticeably missing from the WP PrE. Of course it does need to be kept in mind that the standard healing capabilities of Cleric (with FvS having the possibility) greatly exceed those of a Bard, meaning that WP is more survivable than WC – and that survivability does extend into party survivability as well.

    Note that Bards may also benefit from the same buff given Ameliorating Strike:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ng#post5100209


    Divine Disciple
    Arguably the strongest of the divine PrEs if for no other reason than being caster centric rather than melee. As a pure Caster PrE, the complete lack of melee enhancements is not surprising, and the caster enhancements available are at a minimum interesting and mostly functional; however the lack of available Positive Spell Power increases is noticeable, especially given the Negative & Light bias. Neither of those are terrible, but the lack of Core increases does hurt since it pressures the selection of Universal Spell Power for further increases.

    Next the addition of Spells rather than SLAs from the remaining Core Tiers is again disappointing. Not only for the use of a spell slot, but the dramatic cost increase for applying meta-magics. Fortunately the PrE is otherwise full of SLAs. Transcend Light/Darkness (Core5) is nice however in that not only does it increase the casting stat WIS, but by essentially replicating the entire opposite selection it offers quite a bit of versatility.

    Each Tier offers some variation on Spell Power, Spell Critical and a SLA. As mentioned both the Spell Power and Spell Critical pressure towards the less efficient Universal in order to cover all the bases. Nevertheless the SLAs themselves offer many interesting possibilities, especially for ‘Darkness’ (negative energy). As a whole these mostly measure up comparably to the principal WP enhancements (Smite Foe & upgrades, Righteous Weapons & upgrades, Inflame, etc)

    Divine Disciple also has Spell Point increases, Spell Pen increases, Caster Level increases and Efficient Meta-Magics as one would expect for a caster PrE and the presence of the Turn powered Divine Vitality allows DD to aid other casters directly. In this respect DD is ahead of the ancillary enhancements of WP (Sacred Touch, Burden of Sin, Light Guard, Magic Backlash) that do not really add to WP’s primary focus.

    Interestingly Divine Disciple originally included Vulnerability, an equivalent ability to War Priest’s Smite Weakness. Unfortunately it suffered from the same issue: too few stacks applied combined with too long a cooldown resulted in a near worthless ability; however, in a rare case of synergy alternating between the two abilities would have rapidly raised the stack to maximum. Sadly in an all too frequent case of what were they thinking, Vulnerability has been removed from DD and replaced with yet another efficient meta-magic… Feathered again Even ignoring the loss of synergy, this is unfortunate as Vulnerability was DD’s only way to directly increase others’ damage. Further, with three previous efficient meta-magics DD was not really hurting for another… for shame.

    Ultimately, even though Divine Disciple is only roughly equivalent to War Priest in aim maintenance, it nevertheless comes out ahead due to the current meta-game.

  5. #5
    Community Member mezzorco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    While Bards have less base HP than Clerics, Warchanter grants double the bonus HP than War Priest and for far less.
    WP: 15hp, 3AP, level 1
    WC: 30hp, 3AP, 10 at level 3, 10 at level 12, 10 at level 20

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    WC also have better damage avoidance.
    WP damage avoidance/mitigation: 12AC (2 per core), DR 5/- (core 2), 20PRR action boost (core 3), 10PRR - 9AP total cost
    WC damage avoidance/mitigation: 6AC, DR 6/-, 6PRR - 12AP total cost

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    Despite Armour & Weapon Group Training being available to WC they are noticeably absent from WP. While Clerics are naturally proficient with Heavy Armour, presumably some FvS would benefit from it. Although WP heavily favours using the favoured weapon, the inability to access other weapons is a serious disadvantage. WC easily comes out ahead on choice and especially the lack of necessity to splash other classes.
    Bards can use light armors and shields, but suffer from shield ASF. If they want to wear medium armors, they must invest to tier 5 and still can't use shields properly. Without tier 5, they can't wear armors heavier than light even if splashing.
    Clerics are automatically proficient with medium and heavy armors, and they can use shields with no penalties.
    FvS can use medium armors and shields automatically, if they want heavy armors they can splash (anyway everyone will splash fighter or pally). REMINDER: bards can't use heavy armors even if splashing, due to ASF.
    Cleircs and FvS are automatically proficient with their deity's favored weapon, they need no other proficiencies. Whether or not favored weapon choice is appropriate or lacking is another discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    WP’s Core AC increases and Wall of Steel are slightly better defensively than WC’s Rough and Ready, although the latter is available sooner.
    Right, I talked about it previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    One major difference is that WC significantly buffs a Bard’s totem abilities (songs) while WC does no such thing for Clerics/FvS. Not only does WC increases base Bard songs it also adds several new distinct specialty ones; WP’s only acquire two new spells that are easily replicated.
    I could argue that WP has Divine Might, and there's nothing better than that for a melee. It's tier 1, so even a bard could pick it if splashing, but this reduces options locking you in a bard/cle/x choice.
    It would be silly to say that WP and WC equally benefit from Divine Might just because a bard can splash 1 cleric level.
    So, to me Divine Might wins over Improved Inspire Courage.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    Comparing BAB abilities, WP’s Divine Power is already lackluster due to replicating a lvl4 spell and the ease of acquiring +6 (or greater) enhancement STR, although the permanency is useful and saves spell points/slots. WC’s Victory Song costs less, but has significantly shorter base duration of 20s – fortunately vorpalling extends this indefinitely – and is only activated by singing Inspire Courage, which luckily Bards tend to do. WP does slightly better but neither is ideal.
    Neither is ideal, exactly. It's worth noting that Victory Song is available only at level 18, so most bards won't benefit from it, being 16/x/x the most popular class split for bards.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    Smite Foe and its upgrades (Smite Weakness & Ameliorating Strike) from WP initially look to be better than Gathering Cold and its upgrades (Iced Edges & Northwind) from WC since combining damage, debuffing and healing in a single attack seems to be the complete package, especially since Gathering Cold’s attacks have critical and vorpal activation requirements; however, as a toggle Gathering Cold is active far more than Smite Foe’s 15s cooldown timer permitting many more attacks and thus proc chances in the same amount of time. Further, WC’s Howl of the North’s constant +1 crit multiplier is vastly superior to WP’s Wrathful Weapons +1 enhancement. While WP maintains some versatility, WC would seem to take the melee DPS increase.
    Right expecially if two weapon fighting. For TH fighters the difference is slighter, due to less procs for bards and same cooldown for clerics.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    WP group buffs amount to Inflame and Implacable Foe.....Conversely a WC brings +7 atk & dmg that initially lasts longer than Inflame’s entire time but with a duration that can be extended beyond 8 minutes....Of course it does need to be kept in mind that the standard healing capabilities of Cleric (with FvS having the possibility) greatly exceed those of a Bard, meaning that WP is more survivable than WC – and that survivability does extend into party survivability as well.
    I think that main class traits are songs for bard and heals for cleric. That being said, bards are more addicted to buffing while clerics are more to healing, and in this case it's a draw.



    I disagree with your comparison because you can't compare trees without comparing what base classes give, and without keeping in mind multiclassing possibility.
    Overall, I think that both trees are well balanced, among the best trees of this enhancement pass.
    Anyway, I would add for WP "articles of faith", that would benefit from weapon line. For WC, I would change Frozen Fury to use highest mod between STR and CHA, not just CHA.

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    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    good stuff
    Sadly, the extra HP is hardly enough to make Bard20 a useful War Chanter. Their capstone does not compete well with others. It needs something else - maybe an addition boost to Skaldic Rage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Sadly, the extra HP is hardly enough to make Bard20 a useful War Chanter. Their capstone does not compete well with others. It needs something else - maybe an addition boost to Skaldic Rage.
    You're right, I omitted WC capstone because it's not a bard thread, but level 18 core and capstone are both lacking. Really, who needs/wants a 12 seconds buff?

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    I'd disagree that the War Priest tree should have any healing SLAs, AoE or not. PrEs are no longer exclusive, and there's already an entire Cleric tree dedicated to boosting healing abilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    You're right, I omitted WC capstone because it's not a bard thread, but level 18 core and capstone are both lacking. Really, who needs/wants a 12 seconds buff?
    Yeah, sorry I cut the quote - the capstone remark was prompted by my seeing you included it in the HP analysis. That isn't really apples-apples, as the capstone is just that poor ... the HP will rarely be seen.
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    Exclamation PrEs People, PrEs

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    it's not a bard thread
    No it is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Sadly, the extra HP is hardly enough to make Bard20 a useful War Chanter. Their capstone does not compete well with others. It needs something else - maybe an addition boost to Skaldic Rage.
    While I agree WC’s Warmaster could be better it would seem to stack up well in comparison with most capstones. I also do not follow what you consider a ‘useful’ Warchanter. As it stands, WC is only 25hp behind WP. Could you elaborate on both a little please? Thanks!


    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    Neither is ideal, exactly. It's worth noting that Victory Song is available only at level 18, so most bards won't benefit from it, being 16/x/x the most popular class split for bards.
    From my Analysis post – first line:
    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    There are a couple points for comparative analysis. First, there is the PnP roots of the PrC as way of background. Second, a look at similar PrEs/Trees for other classes; third a look at competing options and finally a look at what War Priest is replacing.
    I am clearly comparing the PrEs – as that is the point of the thread, you should too. Otherwise, if you want a War Priest splash Fighter2; if you want a really good one at the expense of everything else splash Paladin3-6. But as that is the system we had before PrEs we know it works – but it defeats the purpose of trying to improve the game’s progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    WP: 15hp, 3AP, level 1
    WC: 30hp, 3AP, 10 at level 3, 10 at level 12, 10 at level 20
    As I said… You neglect to consider that each WC hp boost also increases Inspire Courage; further, Core costs have a smaller opportunistic cost when progressing up to the capstone (in similar way to a pre-req).

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    WP damage avoidance/mitigation: 12AC (2 per core), DR 5/- (core 2), 20PRR action boost (core 3), 10PRR - 9AP total cost
    WC damage avoidance/mitigation: 6AC, DR 6/-, 6PRR - 12AP total cost
    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    Right, I talked about it previously.
    Had you quoted properly you would have seen that this is addressed. I said that WP has better mitigation (which is what you are presumably trying to show) and that WC has better avoidance. I think your confusion stems from a misunderstanding of the difference between avoidance and mitigation: Displacement is avoidance and is greater than AC/PRR/DR. As an aside, by my count the enhancements you listed for WC only cost 6AP…

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    Bards can use light armors and shields, but suffer from shield ASF. If they want to wear medium armors, they must invest to tier 5 and still can't use shields properly. Without tier 5, they can't wear armors heavier than light even if splashing.
    Clerics are automatically proficient with medium and heavy armors, and they can use shields with no penalties.
    FvS can use medium armors and shields automatically, if they want heavy armors they can splash (anyway everyone will splash fighter or pally). REMINDER: bards can't use heavy armors even if splashing, due to ASF.
    Cleircs and FvS are automatically proficient with their deity's favored weapon, they need no other proficiencies. Whether or not favored weapon choice is appropriate or lacking is another discussion.
    ? What? No idea what you are getting at or even how it relates to the quote let alone the topic…

    Anyway, as we are comparing the PrEs talking about splashes and multiclassing is out of place – ignoring that actually the majority do (or at least did) not splash or multi…

    Not to mention that anyone can wear any armour they wish if they are prepared to accept the penalty – I concede that for a melee character attempting to hit things this is decidedly sub-optimal. I would also like to take this time to introduce you to ASF reduction and spells without somatic components:
    http://ddowiki.com/page/ASF
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Arc...atic_Component

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    It's tier 1, so even a bard could pick it if splashing, but this reduces options locking you in a bard/cle/x choice. It would be silly to say that WP and WC equally benefit from Divine Might just because a bard can splash 1 cleric level.
    As we are comparing the PrEs, yes it would be silly to say it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    I could argue that WP has Divine Might, and there's nothing better than that for a melee. So, to me Divine Might wins over Improved Inspire Courage.
    Unless you are trying to suggest that Divine Might is suddenly one of a Cleric’s totem abilities (which is utterly incorrect) I am not sure where this is coming from. Yes Divine Might is good, but I think it is a far cry from there being “nothing better than that [DM] for a melee.” The DM nerf to Insight STR from +Damage means that not only does it not stack with the copious number of Insightful STR items, but even ignoring the lack of stacking you would require a base 42CHA in order to achieve equivalent damage. Now the application to STR does have some advantages such as Tactics, but given that most Paladins lack 42+ CHA I think it likely that most WP will.

    Even to get the +3 tohit & damage of WC’s Improved Inspire Courage requires 22 CHA, if no other Insight STR item is involved, AND iIC applies to the entire party, does not cost any spell points (or *cough* Turns *cough*) and is acquired intrinsically as pre-reqs for other enhancements.

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    Right expecially if two weapon fighting. For TH fighters the difference is slighter, due to less procs for bards and same cooldown for clerics.
    Yes, TWF does get more procs than THF… Nevertheless, the fact remains that even the slowest attack rate (stationary non-proficient unarmed) will get VASTLY more attacks than 1 every 15s… like 15+ times more – and that is best case comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    I think that main class traits are songs for bard and heals for cleric. That being said, bards are more addicted to buffing while clerics are more to healing, and in this case it's a draw.
    Thanks for agreeing with me: WC boosts Bard songs; WP does not boost Cleric/FvS heals…

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    I disagree with your comparison because you can't compare trees without comparing what base classes give, and without keeping in mind multiclassing possibility.
    Well, you can disagree, but the fact that I just did would prove you incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    Overall, I think that both trees are well balanced, among the best trees of this enhancement pass.
    Anyway, I would add for WP "articles of faith", that would benefit from weapon line. For WC, I would change Frozen Fury to use highest mod between STR and CHA, not just CHA.
    I agree. Now any thoughts on the rest?

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    Community Member mezzorco's Avatar
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    Oh my...

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    Exclamation Comparison Continues

    Angel of Vengeance
    As the go to FvS PrE (indeed only) for so long it has functioned very well for both casters and melee. This duality works very well in the current meta-game given the struggles facing pure melee chars.

    Right of the bat, granting Universal Spell Power is a huge step up from War Priest’s Fire & Light and AoV’s additional spell points are a nice bonus. AoV’s Shield of Condemnation and Aura of Menace are tailored made for a warpriest/battle cleric, and indeed the Aura is a PnP feature of the War Priest PrC. Sadly War Priest has neither; nor do RoB or Sanctuary even remotely stack up. Summon Archon is probably better than Blur, but Haste seems better than Vengeful Magic.

    Implacable Foe and Ascendancy are tougher to compare given Ascendancy’s variability. That said, IF is probably at least as good as the worst if not better than the best. Ascendancy’s CHA is probably not as useful as Implacable Foe’s CON; however, depending upon the free spell some are used significantly more often than the mere 6% uptime of IF…

    On the whole then, AoV seems to have better Core enhancements than WP by about 2-1. Indeed, AoV seems to have better enhancements for the War Priest role than WP itself.

    Angel of Vengeance as a hybrid-PrE includes a number of efficient meta-magics and Spell Critical Chance available at most levels – similar to WP’s Righteous Weapons. Although they do help casting, their inclusion is at the exclusion of other options. That said if you desire them they are there, and it is an option that War Priest lacks.

    Unfortunately AoV Tier1 suffers because of it: most of the abilities are spell based often with the typical goofy mechanics (stupid stacks and whatnot). Angelic Resistance (AoV) is at least nice and compares favourably to Awareness (WP) but costs twice as much. Inquisition and Scourge pale against Divine Might and Toughness, with only WP’s Sacred Touch being worse off. Again, on damaged abilities almost seem like they would be War Priest… Regardless, WP Tier1 have better focus and are far more usable.

    While collectively not as good as WP Tier2, AoV does have the all-important Articles of Faith redeeming it. The ability to use one’s favoured weapon automatically as a spellcasting implement has such synergy, how is the ability missing from War Priest?!?!? Things are starting to look up for the melee FvS. Nevertheless all the remaining enhancements are spell based, and neither Spell Power Action Boost nor Just Reward are equal to even Smite Weakness.

    War Priest Tier3 is headlined by an Inflame upgrade and Burden of Sin – hardly resounding options… Angel of Vengeance brings Scroll Mastery (WITHOUT the silly Wand Heightening pre-req) and Spell Pen. It bares mentioning that WP does offer more choice with its stat selection however.

    AoV’s Crown of Retribution (Tier4) is a very nice option, especially when others are tanking. Certainly more in line with a hybrid than a War Priest, so it is understandable why they do not get it or an equivalent. Other than CoR, AoV only has more casting enhancements, and even then Efficient Heighten is typically less useful on a Divine rather than an Arcane. Regardless, none of them compare to WP’s Ameliorating Strike.

    Neither Tier5 is outstanding. AoV’s Zealous Faith is probably the best due to its caster level increase for Divine Punishment if nothing else. WP brings more to the table with options alone, but Wrathful Weapons, Divine Vessel and even Divine Power are better than AoV’s Unstoppable Magic & Evo Focus.

    Although Angel of Vengeance certainly takes Core, War Priest seems to be ahead in Tiers. That said, AoV does bring a few unique abilities that are noticeably lacking from WP, and for a true hybrid melee/caster has much better casting options. For a Battle Soul, some combination of the two seems most likely for optimal benefit.



    Radiant Savant
    The initial Cleric PrE set a standard to which few others have measured up. Regardless of what one wanted their Cleric to do, RS was basically a no brainer: increasing those abilities you wanted without much waste and adding some very useful additional abilities.

    Starting off, Radiant Servant grants the all-important Universal Spell Power AND also gives Positive Energy Spell Power as well. This awesome double whammy completely trumps War Priest’s lackluster Light & Fire.

    While RS has no direct equivalent to Smite Foe (and especially its upgrades), it does permit the use of any weapon rather than having a favoured weapon bias. This versatility should not be overlooked given how easy it is to gain proficiency (in non-exotic one handers anyway).

    RS’s Pacifism is not good at the best of times, but even worse if actively attacking. That said, WP’s Resilience of Battle is hardly worth mentioning either… bringing us to the no contest that is Positive Energy Burst and Sanctuary. Even a fully upgraded Sanc (which is not even an option for WP) would not be in contention with PEB.

    Improved Empower Healing versus Blur is another no brainer. Even if it was a Blur SLA rather than the lackluster spell, ieHeal would still take it. Of course, Positive Energy Shield or Haste is much closer; ultimately though Haste is readily available (Arcanes, Pots, gear, FEAT!) while 10% Sacred HAmp is not. Of course, given that PES is only 2x Heal score, a Haste SLA would bring these to rough parity.

    Implacable Foe does redeem WP and provide greater benefit than Radiant Servant. Although the individual stat benefits could be argued either way, RS’s 5th maximum spell is very problematic to use in practice making it less useful overall than even IF’s 6% uptime. Thus even for a Battle Cleric, Radiant Servant at least offers some compelling Core options.

    While Radiant Servant’s Bliss is overpriced at 2AP/rank, the remainder of RS’s Tier1 options are all strong. Extra Turns for your Burst (and eventually Aura), cheap Scroll Master and a long lasting Divine Cleansing. Even Altruism is decent providing far more valuable skills than WP’s Awareness, and its rank3 +10 Positive Spell Power is significantly better than +1 saves vs traps. War Priest’s Sacred Touch is junk, but Divine Might, Toughness and Righteous Weapons are all at least decent despite each suffering drawbacks. Still RS seems slightly stronger overall.

    War Priest comes back strong for Tier2. Radiant Servant’s Improved Turning is only ok and Mighty Turning is nearly worthless, especially given its cost. Purge Dark Magics lacks the immunity duration that makes Divine Cleansing so nice and Divine Healing while good has a short duration given its cost. Efficient Empower Healing however is greatly appreciated and its synergy is not unnoticed. Still, WP’s Smite Weakness, Wall of Steal and Inflame generally provide greater benefit and Righteous Weapons and Inflame Saving Throws continue to boost other useful abilities.

    Not to be outdone, Radiant Servant’s Unyielding Sovereignty remains one of the best abilities in game, and its availability to faiths other than the Sovereign Host is outstanding. Intense Healing is very practical and has broad application. However, Martyrdom leaves a lot to be desired – not only is it an on death ability (and while death is most certainly a tactic it very seldom is a winning strategy), but it requires FOUR (4) Turns to even activate! The death requirement makes Martyr bad; the Turn requirement effectively kills it. Certainly WP’s Burden of Sin is no winner given its small proc chance, poor stacking mechanic and terrible effect; however, Righteous Weapons and Inflame Energy Absorption are decent, even good, but definitely not outstanding. WP does get the extra STR option for its stat though.

    Ameliorating Strike is War Priest’s best Tier4 and is good enough that it compares favourably with any RS ability; unfortunately neither Righteous Weapons nor the unimpressive Light Guard continue that trend. Radiant Servant has both Endless Turning AND Incredible Healing. Regenerating Turns and a max caster level increase for positive spells are hard to beat. RS also gets Divine Health for disease immunity. At its best, AS might even the field to make this a wash, but short of that RS has the edge.

    Finally we come to Radiant Servant’s Positive Energy Aura. It truly is unfortunate that it was nerf’d from the level 12 Core ability. Nevertheless it is the reason one goes RS in the first place, and as a PBAoE heal has great applicability to a Battle Cleric. PEA heals more (over time) than AS, is passive and triggers automatically. As good as Ameliorating Strike is, Aura is better. RS also has Cure Focus and Reactive Heal. RH is not particularly great (especially given its 2AP cost) but has its place. Cure Focus though is a nice boost to lower level spells, permitting their use (at a reduced SP cost) instead of larger heals. War Priest’s Divine Intervention is similar in use to RH, but while RH has its problems, the fact that DI does not prevent unconsciousness and then only restores a fraction of HP really limits is potential. Magic Backlash is not even a wannabe contender and Divine Power is functional even if it suffers from its previously discussed problems not the least of which is that the RS can cast it for equal benefit. Divine Vessel and Wrathful Weapons are both good, and probably either is better individually than Cure Focus; however, even all four WP abilities do not come close to Aura’s use and benefits.

    War Priest definitely finds itself lacking compared to Radiant Servant – which funny enough pretty much mirrors PnP. RS brings considerably more healing potential and even more importantly melee AoE healing than WP. WP does bring better DPS, but DPS is zero when you are dead and RS has the option to use non-favoured weapons. While WP can swap to other/better weapons as well, this negates their largest enhancement chain which is a big part of their DPS advantage over RS, begging the question why stay WP? The even better question is why go War Priest? To which the answer is probably thank the Sovereign Host that the PrEs are no longer mutually exclusive!



    Divine Avenger?
    http://ddowiki.com/page/In_development/Enhancements

    More theoretical than the other comparisons due to the lack of information. Presumably still remains an FvS exclusive and obviously the Tree will differ greatly from the preview. Does however seem to be a melee centric PrE (Silver Flame not withstanding) focused around a ‘super’ smite mechanic with the appropriate favoured weapon. Given the reference to Fighter BAB, probably some form of permanent Divine Power similar to WP Tier5.

    Oath of Enmity’s ‘righteous smite’ seems to be a great combination of Smite Evil with Smite Foe. The critical effect could be something between Smite Weakness’s Vulnerable, Ameliorating Strike’s heal and Wrathful Weapons vorpal Light Damage. It also could incorporate Warchanter’s Gathering Cold/Northwind mechanic. Regardless, ostensibly ‘something awesome’ would compete with those in some form. The cooldown/reset mechanic would be unique.

    As a melee PrE it probably lacks caster PrE enhancements like efficient metas & spell crit. If War Priest is any indication DA may not offer Spell Power increases or limit those increases to specific schools/types. Would seem likely to include some form of HP and damage mitigation increases as well as something along the lines of Righteous Weapons.

    Obviously given the age and vagueness of the Divine Avenger preview, and its formatting for the old system, it is difficult to properly compare it to War Priest – especially since WP was never previewed under the old system. Nevertheless both PrEs would seem to be based around interesting smite mechanics and clearly there would be some overlap between them. A big question would be if DA gets Articles of Faith or similar enhancement.

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    Default Brilliantly Lame Dev Move...

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    Radiant Savant
    The initial Cleric PrE set a standard to which few others have measured up. Regardless of what one wanted their Cleric to do, RS was basically a no brainer: increasing those abilities you wanted without much waste and adding some very useful additional abilities.
    ...
    Finally we come to Radiant Servant’s Positive Energy Aura. It truly is unfortunate that it was nerf’d from the level 12 Core ability. Nevertheless it is the reason one goes RS in the first place, and as a PBAoE heal has great applicability to a Battle Cleric.
    ...
    however, even all four WP abilities do not come close to Aura’s use and benefits.
    Dev's take one step forward a few updates back by finally giving the Cleric some love with a decent weapon and shield. Then they totally undo it by nerfing the clerics again. And everyone wonders why it's so dang hard to find a healer...

    Was the radiant servant positive energy aura a bit OP before all this. YEP. But, it was about the only thing making cleric palatable. Not being healed - then why aren't you NEAR the cleric. Now, you virtually have to take this and thus have this your 5th tier tree - nothing else comes close. Take it off 5th tier if you want clerics to diversify to other PrE.

    And while I'm keen on having 1 preferred weapon per deity, there just ain't enough diversity for this. And, who would be the ideal warpriest - dwarves - and their weapon selection for this - dirt useless. Further, to the best of my recollection, the only "cool" cleric weapon is the aforementioned heavy mace, which is more of a spell tool than DPS - but, at least it can be used for melee.

    When healers become one of the first slots to fill instead of the last - then I'll believe they've become OP. Until then, they ain't anywhere near "OP" enough... they are truly UP - under-powered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    Keep the Protection Tree as is and add War Priest to Cleric only.
    Hi just like to say on behalf of FvS players: Turbine please don't pay any attention to this persons Ideas
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

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    Exclamation Ignorant

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Hi just like to say on behalf of FvS players: Turbine please don't pay any attention to this persons Ideas
    Not a FvS PrC; should not be a FvS PrE. You should demand a proper FvS PrE rather than wanting Cleric cast offs.
    Last edited by BFD20001; 09-24-2013 at 12:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    Not a FvS PrC; should not be a FvS PrE. You should demand a proper FvS PrE rather than wanting Cleric cast offs.
    We'll take what we can get as opposed to waiting for something that never materializes (you know like the melee FvS PrE that Eladrin was working on that we never got).

    It's interesting that you're looking out for FvS by not wanting them to settle for "cast offs" but you want the protector tree to remain a FvS tree "to keep from wasting work". Despite Protector being a cast off cleric tree.

    Yes clearly you have only altruistic (not to mention consistent) motives LOL.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

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    My thoughts. My main has been a melee-focused divine since early 2008. I've not read the entire thread.

    - Firstly, giving up the Radiant Aura is an enormous price to pay, and nothing in the Warpriest tier 5 is worth it. Aura actually adds a lot of melee DPS, as it means you are spending time attacking, not healing, and all non-urgent healing occurs passively and automatically. (Not to mention that you also get Reactive Heal in the RS tier 5, which covers the first required emergency heal on each character in each boss fight).

    - Secondly, permanent DP is better than anyone is giving it credit for, but still not enough to merit losing the aura. 100% uptime on DP is essential to maintaining your damage output, and again, time spent casting spells is time not spend swinging.

    - Third, while there is some personal survivability in the Warpriest tree, there needs to be more. A tier 5 selectable, or a level 18 or 20 core ability, that adds significant personal survivability via some method (PRR, HP, passive energy absorb, whatever).

    - Finally, Warpriests are the most likely divine to get tripped or stunned, yet Radiant Servants have several countermeasures to cover critical heals when they are tripped/stunned (Aura passive healing, Reactive Heal, worst case scenario Martyrdom). Warpriests need a point-blank AoE heal they can cast while tripped/stunned or a method to break CC on themselves. It can be very inefficient or on a significant cooldown, it just needs to be there. (100 SP is fine as a cost, it's an emergency button not a go-to heal).
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    First off the fact that I have to PAY to reset my enhancements is ridiculous. If you are changing the enhancement trees on us, the least you could do is reset our enhancements initially for free…

    You lost me right out of the gate with this. Seriously, you're going to make a big deal about a couple of thousand plat? Run a quest and you'll have 5 times what you spent in ten minutes. What else is there to use plat on these days anyway besides ship buffs and enhancement respec.

    Try again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    You lost me right out of the gate with this. Seriously, you're going to make a big deal about a couple of thousand plat? Run a quest and you'll have 5 times what you spent in ten minutes. What else is there to use plat on these days anyway besides ship buffs and enhancement respec.

    Try again.
    But some of us have to redo them at every login...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Seriously, you're going to make a big deal about a couple of thousand plat?
    I agree who cares about a few thousand plat (actually can get up to tens of thousands of plat but new players don't matter right Postumus?) no the thing that is worthy of being dissatisfied is not the plat (well unless you're a new player with 40 AP's poorly spent that you need to respec, but again new players should be left to sink or swim, who cares if they keep playing the game or they quit in frustration at the poor design and oafish clumsy customer service that follows it in many aspects of the game they are encountering, new players are not important amirightpostumus?).

    No the reason it's worthy of taking exception to is called "principle" in that no one should be made to pay any price due to changes they had no control over ON PRINCIPLE... Because giving a free reset of enhancements once at no cost is something that should happen every time they make changes. And whats more they should hand out a new round of +20 LR's EVERY TIME THEY MAKE A MAJOR NERF to all impacted characters that have that line of enhancements. Because of the principle of the matter; But also because it's just good customer service to not make your customers feel put out or cooerced/extorted into spending their own money/TP/game resources on things that are needed to correct the nerfed poor design choices they made which in many cases where kinda obviously bad choices (many of which were correctly pointed out by US ON THE FORUMS amirightpotumus?).
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

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