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  1. #1
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    Default Please help me LR my Pure Human Kensei post U-19 changes

    Hi folks,
    I have a lvl16 Human Kensei (pure fighter) that need to be reworked post U-19 changes.
    It is played as a duo when I play with my wife (I play FVS Evoquer). I made the build for her as it is a pretty low stress toon to play: no excessive switching, or keyboard virtuoso pre-reqs to play and enjoy (she tends to panic alot during fights if she needs to do much more than hitting the target and pushing power surge from time to time ;-)...but hey she wants to play DDO with me so I can live with that!). She is spec'ed as a TWF kopesh windmill.
    The issue I have now is that with the U19 enhancement pass, It seems to me that staying pure is no longuer that advised (the pure kensei seem to have lost lot of his appeal). The tier 5 enhancements don't event stack with must have DPS feats (Keen edge vs. improved critical slash), or are abviously geared towards multiclassing (monk anyone?).
    So, what I would appreciate is pointers towards LRing my fighter. I am stuck with Human, it is a 32point build, I only have the basic classes on this account and I have eaten +2 tomes for all stats already (so please no monk splash suggestions...maybe something with pally, or rogue or barb...).
    A complete build layout (even using the still outdated character builder) would be appreciated.
    Cheers .

  2. #2
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    A monk splash is very powerful post-U19. Being able to use khopeshes (or any other weapon) while staying centered in ultimate earth stance is awesome. I don't really have a specific build layout for you, but I'd highly recommend some monk levels (anywhere from 2 to 6 at least). Although if you can't get monk levels, I'd go with a pally splash for divine might and the saves boost. Human is still a good race.

    Your point about keen edges vs. imp crit is incorrect. They do stack. Actually, keen edge applies before imp crit. I crit on a 13 with my eSOS on my 12/8 monk/fighter.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mute_mayhem View Post
    A monk splash is very powerful post-U19. Being able to use khopeshes (or any other weapon) while staying centered in ultimate earth stance is awesome. I don't really have a specific build layout for you, but I'd highly recommend some monk levels (anywhere from 2 to 6 at least). Although if you can't get monk levels, I'd go with a pally splash for divine might and the saves boost. Human is still a good race.

    Your point about keen edges vs. imp crit is incorrect. They do stack. Actually, keen edge applies before imp crit. I crit on a 13 with my eSOS on my 12/8 monk/fighter.
    As I said, please no monk splashes. I know they are very powerful and all but the gameplay just does not suit the person that will be playing the toon.
    Also, ok I stand corrected with the keen edges vs. imp crit assumption. I was just mislead by the HUD of the game, as the description of the kopeshes in equiped inventory with the keen edge enhanc. and the imp crit feat still reads 17-20 (19-20 doubled) , instead of 15-20 (19-20 +1 from keen edges, then doubled by imp. crit).

    How about a light/deep multiclassing with ranger? it seems that it could be a good mix. Plenty of the TWF feat can come from the ranger multiclassing. I unfortunatly know nothing about rangers beside the free feats they give.

    thanks again for suggesting ideas on how to LR multiclass my pure fighter kensei.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrider View Post
    As I said, please no monk splashes. I know they are very powerful and all but the gameplay just does not suit the person that will be playing the toon.
    Also, ok I stand corrected with the keen edges vs. imp crit assumption. I was just mislead by the HUD of the game, as the description of the kopeshes in equiped inventory with the keen edge enhanc. and the imp crit feat still reads 17-20 (19-20 doubled) , instead of 15-20 (19-20 +1 from keen edges, then doubled by imp. crit).

    How about a light/deep multiclassing with ranger? it seems that it could be a good mix. Plenty of the TWF feat can come from the ranger multiclassing. I unfortunatly know nothing about rangers beside the free feats they give.

    thanks again for suggesting ideas on how to LR multiclass my pure fighter kensei.
    Ranger is a strong add for the tempest enhancements, granting you as much as +4/+4 and +10% offhand attack, not to mention possibly opening up archery options (manyshot) which as great burst damage and great when you need some ranged damage for targets you can't reach or need to soften up before going toe-to-toe. Paladin is great for the saves boost and (if you take 4+ levels) divine might. If you deep splash paladin you can have very nice survivability added with some LoH and unyielding sovereignty. Cleric is a nice small splash for DM if not taking paladin (can get DM from it at level 1) and gives echoes of power to fuel cocoon if needed. So... 12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 rogue is nice for melee DPS, ranged DPS, evasion... but vastly inferior to 12/6/2 monk for the same, but at least you would gain trap ability if she would have any interest in that. Is you objection to monk the complexity or F2P? Because monk doesn't have to add any complexity to still give you evasion, saves, 3 feats, centered (for dance of flowers in epic levels). 8 fighter is also good to open up deep splashes like 8ftr /6 rng /6 pal wouldn't be bad. Let us know your preferences and we can throw together a more specific build.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Ranger is a strong add for the tempest enhancements, granting you as much as +4/+4 and +10% offhand attack, not to mention possibly opening up archery options (manyshot) which as great burst damage and great when you need some ranged damage for targets you can't reach or need to soften up before going toe-to-toe. Paladin is great for the saves boost and (if you take 4+ levels) divine might. If you deep splash paladin you can have very nice survivability added with some LoH and unyielding sovereignty. Cleric is a nice small splash for DM if not taking paladin (can get DM from it at level 1) and gives echoes of power to fuel cocoon if needed. So... 12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 rogue is nice for melee DPS, ranged DPS, evasion... but vastly inferior to 12/6/2 monk for the same, but at least you would gain trap ability if she would have any interest in that. Is you objection to monk the complexity or F2P? Because monk doesn't have to add any complexity to still give you evasion, saves, 3 feats, centered (for dance of flowers in epic levels). 8 fighter is also good to open up deep splashes like 8ftr /6 rng /6 pal wouldn't be bad. Let us know your preferences and we can throw together a more specific build.
    Thank you for the feedback, very interesting options indeed.
    The objection to monk is twofold. First that account is only premium, but I have bought for it pretty much all the adventure packs up to the Underdark expansion. Second, that toon will never play epics by choice. My wife is nice enough to play with me for fun, and does to like it when things become stressful or too challenging, so constant stance changes, complex key/special abilities combos are not her thing at all. That is why I duo with her as an FVS Evoquer, so that I can "deal" with most of the quests challenge and keep an eye on her for heals. I have also 1lvl in rogue so I can trapmonkey everything but 1 chest in Gianthold (Crusible I think), so benefit from her splashing rogue will be reduced to evasion only as I can fulfill most of the other party roles.
    I am intrigued by the 8ftr/6rng/6 paly. I would have thought that a kensei would like to go at least 12 lvl is fighter for the +8 spionic strength burst but again, I have never player with any of the 3 classes you mentioned in this exotic build. (I have a lvl22 divine/1ftr/1rog build that is an excellent soloer and survivalist).
    So please proceed, any input on the ftr/rng/paly would be great. Very curious about this build.

    thanks again.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrider View Post
    Thank you for the feedback, very interesting options indeed.
    The objection to monk is twofold. First that account is only premium, but I have bought for it pretty much all the adventure packs up to the Underdark expansion. Second, that toon will never play epics by choice. My wife is nice enough to play with me for fun, and does to like it when things become stressful or too challenging, so constant stance changes, complex key/special abilities combos are not her thing at all. That is why I duo with her as an FVS Evoquer, so that I can "deal" with most of the quests challenge and keep an eye on her for heals. I have also 1lvl in rogue so I can trapmonkey everything but 1 chest in Gianthold (Crusible I think), so benefit from her splashing rogue will be reduced to evasion only as I can fulfill most of the other party roles.
    I am intrigued by the 8ftr/6rng/6 paly. I would have thought that a kensei would like to go at least 12 lvl is fighter for the +8 spionic strength burst but again, I have never player with any of the 3 classes you mentioned in this exotic build. (I have a lvl22 divine/1ftr/1rog build that is an excellent soloer and survivalist).
    So please proceed, any input on the ftr/rng/paly would be great. Very curious about this build.

    thanks again.
    Okay, what sort of build points and tomes are we looking at? I am assuming you've unlocked 32pt build and have +2 tomes or better?

    Let's look at this first:
    Human 12 ftr / 6 ranger / 2 pal (8/6/2 for now)
    starting stats:
    str: 16
    dex: 17
    con: 12
    int: 10
    wis: 8
    cha: 13

    adjusted stats at 16 for +2 tomes, gear, level ups:
    str: 35 = 16 + 2 tome + 2 ship + 6 item + 3 enh + 4 level up + 2 rams might
    dex: 27 = 17 + 2 tome + 2 ship + 6 item (19 base for IPS and GTWF)
    con: 22 = 12 + 2 tome + 2 ship + 6 item
    int: 14 = 10 + 2 tome + 2 ship
    wis: 12 = 8 + 2 tome + 2 ship
    cha: 24 = 13 + 2 tome + 2 ship + 6 item + 1 enh

    other gear to aim for:
    deadly + accuracy, minos legens (or equivalent), +6 resistance, false life/GFL, feather fall, speed VI

    Leveling order: R-P-R-P-RRRR-FFFFFFFFFFFF
    Feats:
    1) khopesh (+bow str and FE:undead from ranger)
    1H) power attack
    3) cleave (+rapid shot, two-weapon fighting from ranger)
    6) great cleave (+precise shot and die hard from ranger)
    8) (manyshot, ITWF from ranger, and FE:evil outsider)
    9) imp crit:slashing
    9F) stunning blow
    10F) Point blank shot
    12) GTWF
    12F) Imp precise shot
    14F) Weapon Focus: slashing
    15) Weapon Specialization: slashing
    16F) GWF: slashing

    18) dodge
    18F) imp crit: ranged
    20F) GWS: slashing

    21) OC

    Enhancements:
    Tempest(19):
    1 - Shield of whirling steel
    1 - tempest
    8 - whirling blades (1-4)
    3 - improved reaction
    6 - improved parry

    Kensei(31):
    1 - kensei focus
    1 - spiritual bond
    1 - strike with no thought
    1 - power surge
    8 - weapon group specialization (1-4)
    3 - action boost haste
    3 - reed in the wind
    2 - exotic weapon mastery
    6 - tactics III
    4 - Str II
    1 - keen edge

    Human(19):
    1 - HV (damage boost)
    2 - HA (STR)
    1 - HV (saves boost)
    2 - HA (CHA)
    6 - improved recovery (I, II, III)
    3 - action surge (STR)
    4 - heroism, greater heroism

    AA (7):
    1 - arcane archer
    2 - conjure arrows
    2 - elemental arrows
    2 - morphic arrows

    DWS (4)
    1 - far shot
    3 - increased empathy

    Play notes:
    Buff up at mission start with GH, ram's might, conjure arrows, morphic arrows, acid/shock arrows. I avoided most of the clicky effects but she'll have damage boost, power boost (at level 20), saves boost for important times. Anytime she pulls out a bow she'll want to invoke many-shot (terrific burst damage, especially with imp precise shot and the imbues). In combat she'll have stunning blow, cleave, great cleave (put in hotbar as 1, 2, 3), rinse, repeat (skip cleaves if only 1 target), add reed in the wind for defense as needed and smite if she wants. Out of combat some small LoH, resist energy as needed (nice if you go unconscious or die).

    Damage:
    +4 GWS:slashing
    +4 whirling blades
    +4 kensei weapon focus
    +5 power attack
    +12 str
    +2 (when any boost is running)
    +4 power boost (at 20)
    +6 deadly item
    +2 rams might
    +1D6 sneak attack
    +5 (+5 paragon khopesh)
    = +42 + weapon dice, or +48+1D6 situational + weapon dice
    15-20/x3 crit range

    saves (aren't super awesome, but for a first lifer running heroic content should be decent):
    fort: 38 = 14 +6 resistance +76 DG +4 GH + 6 stat +1 voice
    ref: 33 = 7 +6 resistance +7 DG +4 GH + 8 stat +1 voice
    will: 23 = 4 +6 resistance +7 DG +4 GH + 1 stat +1 voice


    apologize for any errors, trying to work also =)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Okay, what sort of build points and tomes are we looking at? I am assuming you've unlocked 32pt build and have +2 tomes or better?
    Yes, I have the 32pt builds unlocked on that account, and a full library of +2 tomes was consumed on the current kensei character, so they will be available when LR'ing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Let's look at this first:
    Human 12 ftr / 6 ranger / 2 pal (8/6/2 for now)
    starting stats:
    str: 16
    dex: 17
    con: 12
    int: 10
    wis: 8
    cha: 13
    Here I'm going to assume a projection to lvl20, and slighly tweak the starting stats as I will be changing the feats loadout:
    I will be "dumbing down" your suggested build for ease of play (less clickies) and focussing a little more on the melee side of combat. Basically I may choose between burst melee DPS (Cleave and Great Cleave), or ranged damage (Point Blank, IPS and IC: Ranged), but as she would most likely never use ranged in close quarters (not at all run and gun proficient), I may lean towards keeping Great Cleave.

    So for stats:
    str: 16 + 2 tome + 5 lvl-ups + 3 enh (1human and 2 kensei) + 6 item + 2 ram's might = 34
    dex: 15 (only need 17 for ITFW/GTWF) + 2 tome + 6 item = 23
    con: 14 + 2 tome + 6 item = 22
    int: 8 + 2 tome = 10
    wis: 8 + 2 tome = 10
    cha: 12 + 2 tome + 6 item = 20

    So here I am left with 4 ability points to spare and potentially 1 human enhancement (other than strength). Where would they be best spent? CON (always good for a fighter)?, CHA (does it need to be higher to satisfy any paladin pre-reqs I am not aware of?), INT (more skill points)?


    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Feats:
    1) khopesh (+bow str and FE:undead from ranger)
    1H) power attack
    3) cleave (+rapid shot, two-weapon fighting from ranger)
    6) great cleave (+precise shot and die hard from ranger)
    8) (manyshot, ITWF from ranger, and FE:evil outsider)
    9) imp crit:slashing
    9F) stunning blow
    10F) Point blank shot
    12) GTWF
    12F) Imp precise shot
    14F) Weapon Focus: slashing
    15) Weapon Specialization: slashing
    16F) GWF: slashing

    18) dodge
    18F) imp crit: ranged
    20F) GWS: slashing

    21) OC
    As I said, I'm thinking about keeping Cleave, Great Cleave, and dropping Point Blank, IPS and IC: Ranged. So I have 3 Feat slots to spare: thinking about picking OTWF for better to hit, and 2 Toughness. Will most likely have to rearange the feat list to accomodate to Feats and Class feats redistribution.

    As to enhancements: no comment. I have no experience in these classes fo still reading the wiki. Your loadout seems pretty nice.


    Please let me know what you think Inoukchuk. I really appreciate your effort in designing this "non gamer" toon (and my apologies for having to dumb it down a bit) ;-)
    I may consider rolling the monk splash variant you mentionned before for myself once I'm done with lvling my FVS.

    Thanks again

    EDIT: Feats
    ok managed to fit all the feats I wanted:
    Exotic weapons prof: kopesh
    PA
    OTWF
    WF slashing
    Toughness
    IC slashing
    Stunning Blow
    GTWF
    WS slashing
    Dodge
    Toughness
    GWF slashing
    Cleave
    G Cleave
    GWS slashing

    and the bonus feats from ranger:
    Bow strength
    FE Undead
    Rapid shot
    TWF
    Precise shot
    Die Hard
    FE Evil outsider
    ITWF
    Manyshot
    Last edited by Sandrider; 09-17-2013 at 10:33 PM.

  8. #8
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    If you don't have access to monk - and thus can't go the "centered Earth stance Kensei" route which is all the rage these days - then I suspect staying pure ftr for the capstone (+15% doublestrike) is still your best DPS option. It would also be the easiest way to keep the build simple for your wife's benefit. MCing would be about adding versatility (e.g., Manyshot for burst ranged DPS) or survivability (E.g., pally splash for higher saves, rog splash for Evasion). Or about boosting your raw STR; e.g., barb splash for Rage, pally or cleric splash for Divine Might.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrider View Post
    Yes, I have the 32pt builds unlocked on that account, and a full library of +2 tomes was consumed on the current kensei character, so they will be available when LR'ing.


    Here I'm going to assume a projection to lvl20, and slighly tweak the starting stats as I will be changing the feats loadout:
    I will be "dumbing down" your suggested build for ease of play (less clickies) and focussing a little more on the melee side of combat. Basically I may choose between burst melee DPS (Cleave and Great Cleave), or ranged damage (Point Blank, IPS and IC: Ranged), but as she would most likely never use ranged in close quarters (not at all run and gun proficient), I may lean towards keeping Great Cleave.

    So for stats:
    str: 16 + 2 tome + 5 lvl-ups + 3 enh (1human and 2 kensei) + 6 item + 2 ram's might = 34
    dex: 15 (only need 17 for ITFW/GTWF) + 2 tome + 6 item = 23
    con: 14 + 2 tome + 6 item = 22
    int: 8 + 2 tome = 10
    wis: 8 + 2 tome = 10
    cha: 12 + 2 tome + 6 item = 20

    So here I am left with 4 ability points to spare and potentially 1 human enhancement (other than strength). Where would they be best spent? CON (always good for a fighter)?, CHA (does it need to be higher to satisfy any paladin pre-reqs I am not aware of?), INT (more skill points)?




    As I said, I'm thinking about keeping Cleave, Great Cleave, and dropping Point Blank, IPS and IC: Ranged. So I have 3 Feat slots to spare: thinking about picking OTWF for better to hit, and 2 Toughness. Will most likely have to rearange the feat list to accomodate to Feats and Class feats redistribution.

    As to enhancements: no comment. I have no experience in these classes fo still reading the wiki. Your loadout seems pretty nice.


    Please let me know what you think Inoukchuk. I really appreciate your effort in designing this "non gamer" toon (and my apologies for having to dumb it down a bit) ;-)
    I may consider rolling the monk splash variant you mentionned before for myself once I'm done with lvling my FVS.

    Thanks again

    EDIT: Feats
    ok managed to fit all the feats I wanted:
    Exotic weapons prof: kopesh
    PA
    OTWF
    WF slashing
    Toughness
    IC slashing
    Stunning Blow
    GTWF
    WS slashing
    Dodge
    Toughness
    GWF slashing
    Cleave
    G Cleave
    GWS slashing

    and the bonus feats from ranger:
    Bow strength
    FE Undead
    Rapid shot
    TWF
    Precise shot
    Die Hard
    FE Evil outsider
    ITWF
    Manyshot
    Archery isn't generally meant to be used in close quarters, it's mainly for hitting targets you can't melee (on ledges, flying, whatever), and softening up big fights from a distance before switching to swords. This second use is where IPS + manyshot really shines as the bad guys will stream toward you in a line. If the archery aspect isn't useful to her then we would likely be better off swapping 6rng/2pal for 6pal/2rng which would be a new build concept. This would dump manyshot, PS, IPS for unyielding sovereignty and divine might. Or maybe 4/4.... I took cha to 13 to even it out with human enhancements for an extra +1 to saves, and it would be that much more important if going 6 pal as it also affects divine might (and # of turns). Any extra pts I would spend on STR.

    So, if you choose to stick to the build above (6 ranger, dumping extra archery feats) I would probably go str 17, cha 13 and take OTWF, two-weapon defense, force of personality (not a big fan of toughness feats since they no longer unlock toughness enhancements). If she will use archery I would stick to the original build I posted, maybe dropping IC:ranged for OTWF. If you don't think she'll use archery I wouldn't do more than 4 levels of ranger and I'd be tempted to go just 1. A 4/4 split gives you ranger spells (rams might, jump/resist elements), paladin spells(cure light, divine favor), turn undead (divine might), fear immunity, disease immunity (actual immunity, not the crappy +6 resists that other immunities became). That's worth a thought. Then you spend the points that would go in arcane archer in KoC instead. DM is a clicky, but it's a 2min clicky.

  10. #10
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    Options, options.
    The 12ftr/4rng/4paly also looks interesting....loosing free ITWF, but gaining some nice immunities, and opens up tier 4 enhancements for both splash classes.
    But I have a main question: all the builds discussed so far are Strength based builds, so why is the DEX so high? My understanding is that Ranger gets the TWF, ITWF and GTWF regardless of the dex stat prereqs. So why not dump Dex to 8, raise STR and CON to 17 and CHA to 14. The 2 human stat enhancements will be applied to round off STR and CON. On a 6rng, I'll get TWF and ITWF for free, but will ahve to forego GTWF. Is loosing 20% offhand really that bad? Maybe for such a meee-centric build...

    My second question is pertinent to the type of armor. Lots of feats (dodge, mobility) and enhancements boost the dodge % under the restriction of light and no armor. I'm not sure how high I can go with this build, but it is really worth that many feat and enhancement points. Can I get it to any relevant number as a non-monk splash or should I just forget about dodge bonus and take the heaviest armor with the highest AC i can find?

    thanks
    Last edited by Sandrider; 09-19-2013 at 10:28 PM.

  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrider View Post
    But I have a main question: all the builds discussed so far are Strength based builds, so why is the DEX so high? My understanding is that Ranger gets the TWF, ITWF and GTWF regardless of the dex stat prereqs. So why not dump Dex to 8, raise STR and CON to 17 and CHA to 14. The 2 human stat enhancements will be applied to round off STR and CON. On a 6rng, I'll get TWF and ITWF for free, but will ahve to forego GTWF. Is loosing 20% offhand really that bad? Maybe for such a meee-centric build...
    If you're going TWF, it's in your best interests to max out your offhand procs. Dumping DEX (and sacrificing GTWF) so you can have a couple more pts of STR or CON or CHA isn't worth it. And since this is a 32-pt build w/+2 tomes, you can easily start 16 / 15 / 16 / 8 / 8 / 12.

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