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  1. #1
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    Default Archmage Enchantment SLA T2 exchange

    Maybe I'm wrong and it is used heavily by other players but I have never used Otto's Resistable Dance SLA so far, because of it's range (Touch) and limit to affect one enemy only. In case of emergency to get more distance between mobs and me I usually jump away or use the Hypnotism SLA first and then jump away.

    So I'd suggest to remove Otto's and define Charm Animal (currently a T1 divine spell for Druids and Rangers) as Arcane Enchantment T2 SLA instead. This would be a great improvement I think, because Animals are the only mob type a Wizard specialized in Enchantment can't charm, and due to this it feels kind of incomplete.

    The same spells being either arcane or divine is not new and I'd love to be able to charm spiders, wolves and lions as a Wizard too.

    Good idea or bad idea?

  2. #2
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanhelin View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong and it is used heavily by other players but I have never used Otto's Resistable Dance SLA so far, because of it's range (Touch) and limit to affect one enemy only. In case of emergency to get more distance between mobs and me I usually jump away or use the Hypnotism SLA first and then jump away.

    So I'd suggest to remove Otto's and define Charm Animal (currently a T1 divine spell for Druids and Rangers) as Arcane Enchantment T2 SLA instead. This would be a great improvement I think, because Animals are the only mob type a Wizard specialized in Enchantment can't charm, and due to this it feels kind of incomplete.

    The same spells being either arcane or divine is not new and I'd love to be able to charm spiders, wolves and lions as a Wizard too.

    Good idea or bad idea?
    There is always room for improvement in the SLA system, but you'll likely need more justification than this to make an idea a popular change. The fact that wizards have some limitations on what they can charm is a good thing. Charming animals is the realm of druids and such and adds flavor to the different classes. Not every class should be able to do everything equally well. It allows for an element of balance without making every class essentially the same. Class X may be best at instakilling while class Y is best as boss dps and class Z is best at animal/vermin crowd control. I'm not saying DDO is perfect in this regard but there is still some element of this left in the game which I think should be left as is.

    Otto's Resistable Dance is certainly not the best SLA, but it's far from the worst and I'm sure many players use it, even if just on lower levels for a while. If every ability was great, you'd still have some that are bad, just relatively speaking.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    The fact that wizards have some limitations on what they can charm is a good thing. Charming animals is the realm of druids and such and adds flavor to the different classes. Not every class should be able to do everything equally well. It allows for an element of balance without making every class essentially the same.
    I thought about splashing one Level Druid to get this spell, but it won't be very effective in higher Levels I guess, because Heighten won't work and the Wisdom modifier would be too low. As a Wizard who specializes in Enchantment, it would fit perfectly to be able to charm all mob types, I think, also a flavor thing. A specialization in Enchantment already results in a lot more limitations compaired to other specializations and classes like lesser damage, no selfheal (unless Warforged), generally weak in melee, no instakills, higher SP cost compaired to the effects (save roll on damage spell results in half the damage; save roll on Enchant results in nothing but SP loss).

    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Otto's Resistable Dance is certainly not the best SLA, but it's far from the worst and I'm sure many players use it, even if just on lower levels for a while.
    I assume a lot more players use either the cheaper Hypnotism SLA (which is AoE) or just cast the disco ball, because the usually dangerous situations for a Wizard are attacks by multiple enemies. The few single hard hitters I encountered so far, were red named mobs that can't be CC'ed anyways. I'm sure Turbine has some statistics about how often the Otto's SLA is used. But if there are players out there who already often use it, please let us know too.

  4. #4
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Honestly, I've never used the Resistable Dance spell, period. As an SLA it is even more useless in that regard.

    I have never been a fan of how SLAs are provided in the AM PrE, either before or after the Enhancement Pass. They still cost too much for what you get. They help, but they certainly don't say to me, "Gotta go AM for those fantastic SLAs!!!"

    PM's SLA are somewhat HP-based, which you can compensate with an Aura making them GREAT fall-back abilities in low SP situations (this is before they extended the cool-downs). I could successfully contribute to a quest with next to no blue-bar by simply using the SLAs. You can't realty do that with AM SLAs. At best their benefit is maybe cheaper buffs. Web has some advantages, and maybe Magic Missile (before metas, but after it is not so swell). The rest are just "meh."

    Not sure how AM works with P&P, but the AM SLAs are in need of a revamp for DDO in my opinion.

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    / not signed

    The Ottos SLA is extremely handy and I use it constantly when playing a Wizard. Besides, only other L2 enhanctment spells are Daze and Touch of Idiocy. which are unarguably less useful.

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    Community Member thegreatneil's Avatar
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    Master archmage here!

    For Otto's Resistible Dance, try enlarge. No really, makes it not a touch spell any more. the range isn't far. (I am thinking FVS aura far, but better than touch range.)

    Also, if you REALLY need to charm animals, use Symbol of Persuasion.
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    Community Member Toro12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Honestly, I've never used the Resistable Dance spell, period. As an SLA it is even more useless in that regard.

    I have never been a fan of how SLAs are provided in the AM PrE, either before or after the Enhancement Pass. They still cost too much for what you get. They help, but they certainly don't say to me, "Gotta go AM for those fantastic SLAs!!!"

    PM's SLA are somewhat HP-based, which you can compensate with an Aura making them GREAT fall-back abilities in low SP situations (this is before they extended the cool-downs). I could successfully contribute to a quest with next to no blue-bar by simply using the SLAs. You can't realty do that with AM SLAs. At best their benefit is maybe cheaper buffs. Web has some advantages, and maybe Magic Missile (before metas, but after it is not so swell). The rest are just "meh."

    Not sure how AM works with P&P, but the AM SLAs are in need of a revamp for DDO in my opinion.
    I'm a little confused by this part of your post:

    Web has some advantages, and maybe Magic Missile (before metas, but after it is not so swell).
    Free maximize , empower make MM less desirable than non maxed , empowered MM SLA?
    Am I just reading that wrong?

  8. #8
    Community Member Toro12's Avatar
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    Now back to the original post/topic.
    I don't think the AM SLAs are bad. Are there different spell choices I'd prefer to see , you bet.

    My main problem with the AM and even PM are the bolt and blast. They are pretty much worthless. Save for half (reflex ) , non meta and not even loaded d3+3 base with long cooldowns. When I look at their position on the new tree and then look at the arti SLAs in the same position which are loaded dice , meta eligible makes my AM want to cry little oil/antifreeze WF tears.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatneil View Post
    Also, if you REALLY need to charm animals, use Symbol of Persuasion.
    This is a great idea, thanks for that.

    I already tried to splash one Druid Level on my Lvl 16 Wiz and tested the Charm Animal spell in Vale of Twilight. Animals have very, very low will saves, on elite difficulty too, so the one and only Druid Level isn't worthless for this purpose. I always slot Sonic Blast without Metamagics and its daze-effect quite often works against Animals around Level 20 and so does Charm Animal.

    The Archmage SLA being replaced with Charm Animal would be nice, but for the purpose of building a complete Enchanter it's not necessary. Though I won't use the T2 SLA, although enlarged but because of its "double-touch" range it's not really useful in my opinion.

  10. #10
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    I'd like to reverse: actually the T1 SLA Hypnosis is not that great, and thanks to this thread I tried to find a usage for the T2 SLA and now I'm using it pretty often. Charm/Hold - run into melee distance - Release/ and/or T2 SLA to cc. Works pretty good. But now the T1 SLA remains completely unused.

    New Suggestion: the T1 SLA Hypnosis should be changed to Charm Animal. And btw please make Dismiss Charm work on Druid Charms too, thx.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanhelin View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong and it is used heavily by other players but I have never used Otto's Resistable Dance SLA
    Yup, wrong, other players, including me, use Resistable Dance SLA heavily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanhelin View Post
    This would be a great improvement I think, because Animals are the only mob type a Wizard specialized in Enchantment can't charm, and due to this it feels kind of incomplete.
    <snip>
    The same spells being either arcane or divine is not new and I'd love to be able to charm spiders, wolves and lions as a Wizard too.
    Since when can't Wizards charm animals? Go hit a wolf or lion with Charm Monster and tell us what happens. I admit I don't remember trying it, but it should work.

    However, note that, per D&D rules, "Vermin" and "Animals" are two separate categories of monster. Vermin are considered mindless and thus are immune to mind-affecting spells. So if Charm Monster does not work on spiders or scorpions, that's probably working as intended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Since when can't Wizards charm animals? Go hit a wolf or lion with Charm Monster and tell us what happens. I admit I don't remember trying it, but it should work.
    They are immune. Only magical beasts are affected by Charm Monster. A Winterwolf can be charmed, a normal Wolf not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    However, note that, per D&D rules, "Vermin" and "Animals" are two separate categories of monster. Vermin are considered mindless and thus are immune to mind-affecting spells. So if Charm Monster does not work on spiders or scorpions, that's probably working as intended.
    Yes it is, but Charm Animal does work on Animals and Vermin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanhelin View Post
    They are immune. Only magical beasts are affected by Charm Monster. A Winterwolf can be charmed, a normal Wolf not.
    So Charm Monster is bugged. OK.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanhelin View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong and it is used heavily by other players but I have never used Otto's Resistable Dance SLA so far, because of it's range (Touch) and limit to affect one enemy only. In case of emergency to get more distance between mobs and me I usually jump away or use the Hypnotism SLA first and then jump away.

    So I'd suggest to remove Otto's and define Charm Animal (currently a T1 divine spell for Druids and Rangers) as Arcane Enchantment T2 SLA instead. This would be a great improvement I think, because Animals are the only mob type a Wizard specialized in Enchantment can't charm, and due to this it feels kind of incomplete.

    The same spells being either arcane or divine is not new and I'd love to be able to charm spiders, wolves and lions as a Wizard too.

    Good idea or bad idea?
    Otto's Resistable Dance is a great "oh ****" button when you really need something to stop hitting you. I also use it constantly when dealing with beholders, because the SLA means it works in their anti-magic and it renders them harmless.

    I even keep the lvl 2 spell around for a while since I'm using the Web SLA more and more. It's nice to have alongside Otto's Irrestible Dance too, because you can easily dance two enemies that saved on your web/disco/whatever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    Otto's Resistable Dance is a great "oh ****" button when you really need something to stop hitting you. I also use it constantly when dealing with beholders, because the SLA means it works in their anti-magic and it renders them harmless.

    I even keep the lvl 2 spell around for a while since I'm using the Web SLA more and more. It's nice to have alongside Otto's Irrestible Dance too, because you can easily dance two enemies that saved on your web/disco/whatever.
    You're right on this and I was wrong. I do use the Dance SLA now more often. However, the T1 SLA now remains unused.

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