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  1. #1
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    Default Shiradi Sorc and FVS Tier 4 Intense Faith

    Heyas,

    Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, my search-fu is weak !

    I have done multiple pure sorc lives, so I am looking at something a bit different this time around. I am looking at doing a deepish fvs splash shiradi sorc..and looking at going 14 sorc/4 fvs/2 pally for lots of mana procs and general different gameplay.

    My question is this:

    Does tier 4 FVS intense faith effect caster level of Sorc spells ?

    If it does chain missiles would have an effective caster lvl of 17 I assume, so I would only miss out on one missile ( from wiki max missiles is at 19 )

    Many thanks :-)

  2. #2
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KahaNZL View Post
    Heyas,

    Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, my search-fu is weak !

    I have done multiple pure sorc lives, so I am looking at something a bit different this time around. I am looking at doing a deepish fvs splash shiradi sorc..and looking at going 14 sorc/4 fvs/2 pally for lots of mana procs and general different gameplay.

    My question is this:

    Does tier 4 FVS intense faith effect caster level of Sorc spells ?

    If it does chain missiles would have an effective caster lvl of 17 I assume, so I would only miss out on one missile ( from wiki max missiles is at 19 )

    Many thanks :-)
    Yes it does, but you do not have enough Ap to get everything you need from fire, air and aov. 16/2/2 is the superior split

  3. #3
    Hero thesnoman's Avatar
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    It's an interesting concept, but Mew makes a point that 16/2/2 is a superior split.

    I'd like to see your build play out to see which is truly superior - for YOU. Remember that this game is not 100% about getting EVERYTHING out of EVERY toon you build. Experimentation makes this game fun and it's why I keep coming back - I love playing with builds.

    Mew appears to believe that no build is worth building live unless it's his maxed DPS 18/2 FvS Splash or 16/2/2 Pally/Fvs Splash for Shiradi Sorcs.
    I say go for it - it's an interesting idea and you may find your play style makes this build better for you. I can argue with Mew until I'm blue in the face about what build is "superior" and no one will win because our play styles are very different.

    Go for it...build it and see - the worst thing that can happen is that you don't like the build, but you're only a +3 LR or TR away fro mchanging your build to one of the more conventional Shiradi builds out there today.
    "Melkorr (Completionist "Toaster of Vengeance") ~ Angrond (TWF Jugg) ~ Telchacar ~ Celebrimor (Bank) ~ Manados
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  4. #4
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesnoman View Post
    It's an interesting concept, but Mew makes a point that 16/2/2 is a superior split.

    I'd like to see your build play out to see which is truly superior - for YOU. Remember that this game is not 100% about getting EVERYTHING out of EVERY toon you build. Experimentation makes this game fun and it's why I keep coming back - I love playing with builds.

    Mew appears to believe that no build is worth building live unless it's his maxed DPS 18/2 FvS Splash or 16/2/2 Pally/Fvs Splash for Shiradi Sorcs.
    I say go for it - it's an interesting idea and you may find your play style makes this build better for you. I can argue with Mew until I'm blue in the face about what build is "superior" and no one will win because our play styles are very different.

    Go for it...build it and see - the worst thing that can happen is that you don't like the build, but you're only a +3 LR or TR away fro mchanging your build to one of the more conventional Shiradi builds out there today.
    No, you're not understanding what I'm saying in this case. The enhancements are too tight to be able to get intense faith 3/3 without giving up more DPS elsewhere. So, that's a minimum of 28 points in AoV. Try and plan out the enhancements for this split and you'll see what I mean.

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    Thanks for the replies and information !

    I do suspect that the loss in dps won’t be worth the extra two fvs levels. I find it very interesting that it is possible to end up with a higher energy caster lvl with a deeper splash, it speaks well of the flexibility of the enhancement pass.

    I am at 14 sorc at the moment, I will go forward with testing a 14sorc/4fvs/2pally split ..as already stated I can always munch a +lr to correct the build if the AP points prove to be to much of a tight fit ( highly likely by the sounds ).

    DPS in this build isn't my main aim, rather producing as many procs as possible (nerve venom) with as high a crit profile as I can for mana procs ..so trading dps for mana ( can fit in mental toughness, imp mental toughness, epic mental toughness and past life sorc ) Hit Points ( toughness and epic toughness, fvs hp ) and mana procs.

    I should also say the other two players I run with are building a wf juggernaut and a 18sorc/2fvs shiradi so I hope this build will fit well into the team ( all wf grps are a thing of beauty imo ! ) as more of a support build.

    The great thing about ddo that keeps me playing is being able to try different builds and seeing how they go…something even after over 10 arcane lives on different chars keeps me coming back for more :-)

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    Hero thesnoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    No, you're not understanding what I'm saying in this case. The enhancements are too tight to be able to get intense faith 3/3 without giving up more DPS elsewhere. So, that's a minimum of 28 points in AoV. Try and plan out the enhancements for this split and you'll see what I mean.

    I understand perfectly - I've been on Lama land - I've played with so many permutations of Shiradi Sorcs it's sickening - and I know that you give up DPS to get Intense Faith. I gave up DPS to get Survivability on my build. It's not always about DPS

    What I was saying is that you are completely correct about the FvS Splash, but the OP can try out a deeper FvS splash to see if he likes it. If he does, GREAT - if not, a +3 LR is not that expensive. It boils down to opinion - there seem to be hundreds of different versions of Shiradi Sorcs out there right now - and while one may be better at one aspect, another may be better in an entirely different way.

    I don't discount ANY build until I really play test it. This is one I think would be worth trying out - no need to discourage trying new things because you think there can be only one "best" Shiradi Build. The reality is that the 18/2/2 flavor that you have chosen is best for you - it's not necessarily the best for everyone. Your flavor being best is your opinion - and opinions are like - well you know the rest...everyone has one.


    @KahaNZL

    Grats on trying something new - respeccing enhancements is fairly cheap and you can play with a bunch of different flavors until you figure out what works for you. And like I've said - a +3 LR is fairly cheap so if you completely hate the build it's a half hour or so of re-levelling and you're on your way to a proven build.
    Last edited by thesnoman; 09-18-2013 at 06:04 PM.
    "Melkorr (Completionist "Toaster of Vengeance") ~ Angrond (TWF Jugg) ~ Telchacar ~ Celebrimor (Bank) ~ Manados
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  7. #7
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KahaNZL View Post
    Thanks for the replies and information !

    I do suspect that the loss in dps won’t be worth the extra two fvs levels. I find it very interesting that it is possible to end up with a higher energy caster lvl with a deeper splash, it speaks well of the flexibility of the enhancement pass.

    I am at 14 sorc at the moment, I will go forward with testing a 14sorc/4fvs/2pally split ..as already stated I can always munch a +lr to correct the build if the AP points prove to be to much of a tight fit ( highly likely by the sounds ).

    DPS in this build isn't my main aim, rather producing as many procs as possible (nerve venom) with as high a crit profile as I can for mana procs ..so trading dps for mana ( can fit in mental toughness, imp mental toughness, epic mental toughness and past life sorc ) Hit Points ( toughness and epic toughness, fvs hp ) and mana procs.

    I should also say the other two players I run with are building a wf juggernaut and a 18sorc/2fvs shiradi so I hope this build will fit well into the team ( all wf grps are a thing of beauty imo ! ) as more of a support build.

    The great thing about ddo that keeps me playing is being able to try different builds and seeing how they go…something even after over 10 arcane lives on different chars keeps me coming back for more :-)
    I strongly suggest trying to plan out the enhancements before you play this, because you guys aren't understanding what I'm saying.

    To get intense faith 3/3, you need to give up something really essential. You're not losing 10 HP or a little bit of spellpower, you're losing wind dance or immolation.

    And if you're losing those, your build just a weaker version of the wizard 14/4 fvs/2 monk build.

    I'm playing the 14/4/2 split right now on my sorc. It's not a terrible split per se, since you are getting a little extra crit and spellpower over the 16/2/2 variant. However, it just isn't as good. +3 hearts are not cheap, at least here on khyber. There are zero hearts on the AH and haven't been for a while, and they cost about 1500 TP from the store. Go ahead with the split if you want, but I'm telling you, from someone who is playing the split right now, it just doesn't work as you think it will.

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    hmm...

    If I am reading correctly both people responding to this question see a 14/4/2 split as less than fantastic ( or at least saying the 16/2/2 is superior split )

    Its good to hear from someone actually playing this mix, its exactly the reason I posted here in the first place ( thanks )

    I do want some flavor from this build, but sometimes that can slide into gimping a little for not much reason or gain !

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    BUT...

    Since Meteor Swarm is no longer an option once you split 14/4/2, neither is the need for Max/Empower.

    Since Max/Empower is no longer needed, you don't need the efficient Max/Emp enhancements...

    Again - Since there is no planner, I've got to plan this out on Lama-land, but I'm pretty sure it will work and you don't become "GIMP"

    I'll try it out tonight - I think Sir Points-a-lot is still around so I can get a Heart on the Store and either LR or TR into this permutation of Shiradi Sorc and let you know my thoughts on it.

    (Figure it's worth trying it out since there's some confusion about what can and can't be done with this build and since there's no planner to play with and I don't have this build on live)
    "Melkorr (Completionist "Toaster of Vengeance") ~ Angrond (TWF Jugg) ~ Telchacar ~ Celebrimor (Bank) ~ Manados
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesnoman View Post
    BUT...

    Since Meteor Swarm is no longer an option once you split 14/4/2, neither is the need for Max/Empower.

    Since Max/Empower is no longer needed, you don't need the efficient Max/Emp enhancements...

    Again - Since there is no planner, I've got to plan this out on Lama-land, but I'm pretty sure it will work and you don't become "GIMP"

    I'll try it out tonight - I think Sir Points-a-lot is still around so I can get a Heart on the Store and either LR or TR into this permutation of Shiradi Sorc and let you know my thoughts on it.

    (Figure it's worth trying it out since there's some confusion about what can and can't be done with this build and since there's no planner to play with and I don't have this build on live)
    Thanks a lot for the effort and time you guys are putting into this one !

    Perhaps "gimping a little" was a poor choice of words on my part, more that the loss of spells/ap/dps isn't quite worth the extra hp/mana/crit increase the 14/4/2 split brings.

    At the risk of further complicating the issue ... I was planning to drop empower at 20 for past life sorc as I found on my 18sorc/2 pally Shiradi I simply hardly ever had it turned on except for boss fights for dots/slas, and keeping maximise...

    It is my understanding that Shiradi procs are effected by spell power and are therefore boosted by a high degree by keeping maximise running ? ( dps isnt my main aim, but I am running with some pretty heavy hitters so wouldn't mind getting the occasional kill ! )
    Last edited by KahaNZL; 09-19-2013 at 03:07 PM. Reason: spelling

  11. #11
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KahaNZL View Post
    It is my understanding that Shiradi procs are effected by spell power and are therefore boosted by a high degree by keeping maximise running ? ( dps isnt my main aim, but I am running with some pretty heavy hitters so wouldn't mind getting the occasional kill ! )
    I tested it, you can find the thread in the wizard forum. Maximize/empower does affect shiradi procs, but maximize/empower has to be on for the spell the proc is happening off of.

    Edit: I'm not sure I would call it "boosted by a high degree" though... roughly 10% for maximize in my experience.
    Last edited by cdr; 09-19-2013 at 08:25 PM.

  12. #12
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesnoman View Post
    BUT...

    Since Meteor Swarm is no longer an option once you split 14/4/2, neither is the need for Max/Empower.

    Since Max/Empower is no longer needed, you don't need the efficient Max/Emp enhancements...

    Again - Since there is no planner, I've got to plan this out on Lama-land, but I'm pretty sure it will work and you don't become "GIMP"

    I'll try it out tonight - I think Sir Points-a-lot is still around so I can get a Heart on the Store and either LR or TR into this permutation of Shiradi Sorc and let you know my thoughts on it.

    (Figure it's worth trying it out since there's some confusion about what can and can't be done with this build and since there's no planner to play with and I don't have this build on live)
    Again, try it out and then get back to this thread. I'm not talking about max/emp enhancements anywhere in this thread, and you're kind of being a jerk by making all these assumptions.

  13. #13
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    To break it down, here are the AP requirements per tree to get just the essentials on a sorc:

    Air: 32 AP (wings)
    Fire: 21 AP (immolation)
    AoV: 26 AP (3/3 intense faith)

    Total: 79 AP

    However, ideally you want to spend 34 and maybe even 36 in air for +10 force and/or elemental weakness for extra DoT dps on bosses. You'll want to spend 28 in AoV for an extra 2% crit. And you'll have zero points left for any WF enhancements you might be thinking about, which also means you'll need to slot an ASF augment in a precious blue slot.

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    Yikes that is a tight fit !

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    And if you're losing those, your build just a weaker version of the wizard 14/4 fvs/2 monk build.
    .
    A very good point, well taken Atomic

    After having a look at cdr's wizard shiradi build ..a statement really stood out to me which although was written for wizard I think applies to me in this situation ..

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    4 fvs becomes hyper-focused on shiradi DPS. I like to retain some more flexibility and durability, but I certainly don't think 14/4/2 is wrong. I think of 16/2/2 as the default, and once you understand it you can make informed decisions on other splits.
    .
    I will go for the 16/2/2 split, and once i see how it performs and understand the build a bit better and will look at the 14/4/2 split if I tr this char again ..or eat a +lr if I feel like changing things up.

    I've been a lurker on these forums for a number of years now ..thanks all for making my first real thread here so informative.

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    @ Mew

    Not sure why you think I'm making assumptions - all I've said is true. If you're referring to the confusion line, it is I who am confused because I don't have a FvS toon on live or a planner to play with and work out the enhancements - hence my want to go to lamaland to try out the build using my toons over there as a test bed.

    @Everyone

    Mew is right about the breakdown since I had forgotten about the point needed to get ASF to 0%. I was working out everything on paper last night and all looked great. Tonight I ran through the build on Lama before coming onto the forums and had my DOH! moment when I failed casting a reconstruct and cursed my own stupidity for forgetting that enhancement.

    You CAN get to 2/3 Intense Faith with Immolation and Wind Dance, but you'll be giving up +1 Con, +10 Force SP, and 25% fort. If you don't mind slotting Arcane Spell Failure (Blue), you can get to 3/3 as has been mentioned above.

    All this being taken into consideration, I'm not to saying that the build is gimp - just tougher to get the most out of.

    Personally, I'm not crazy about the split with the limited playtime I took to test out the build. It is a manageable build for much of the content...just not really viable for soloing end game EE. Not sure how it would go for group play, but if you're playing a support role it might not be bad.

    Just out of curiosity, how much time do you plan on spending at cap? If it's a fair while, you are definitely better off going 18/2 or 16/2/2. If you're getting to 20 and only spending some time opening up EDs, then TRing it would probably be fun for a while.
    Last edited by thesnoman; 09-20-2013 at 06:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesnoman View Post

    Just out of curiosity, how much time do you plan on spending at cap? If it's a fair while, you are definitely better off going 18/2 or 18/2/2. If you're getting to 20 and only spending some time opening up EDs, then TRing it would probably be fun for a while.
    It was my first char in ddo, a LOB FVS wf build. It sat on the shelf for two years..with the expansion I used the +20 lr to change him to a wizard for the past life then tr'd him straightaway into a sorc..then again to sorc, giving a PL Wiz and a PL Sorc for this life. I don't plan to TR him again but may eTR if that proves to be any good.

    At 16 now ( banking 17 ) after a solid Necro 4 run with guildies with a 14sorc/2pally split ( I find the extra saves comes in very handy around that level while blasting undead with DBF/fire sla) .The another advantage of the 16/2/2 split is being able to run 16sorc/2pally in heroics and go straight to cap, taking the fvs levels when hitting epic levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Again, try it out and then get back to this thread. I'm not talking about max/emp enhancements anywhere in this thread, and you're kind of being a jerk by making all these assumptions.
    Haha, I thought this was funny. How is he being a jerk for making a few statements about why it would be worth trying? Because someone does not take your word as gospel on the forum, they are a jerk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    Haha, I thought this was funny. How is he being a jerk for making a few statements about why it would be worth trying? Because someone does not take your word as gospel on the forum, they are a jerk?
    Defending the split is fine... adding extra information to Mew's post and then criticized that extra information that wasn't in the original post... not so fine.

  19. #19
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    Haha, I thought this was funny. How is he being a jerk for making a few statements about why it would be worth trying? Because someone does not take your word as gospel on the forum, they are a jerk?
    If you actually read the thread, you'd see that he admitted he was wrong and misunderstood what I was trying to say. That's really respectable.

    But of course actually reading is too much to ask for you, so it's great that I can choose whether to dismiss posts like yours or not.

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    Community Member Zotze's Avatar
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    Hi all, my first post here, first sorry for my bad english

    Actual i play the 14/4/2 Sorc/FvS/Pally split.
    I played all the time a pure Sorc, then i started to TR the toon 3 times (past lifes wizard) for 36pt build and after the Update i first leveled to a 16/2/2 build.
    But then i decided to change it to 4 lvl of FVS cause the 14 lvl of sorc gives me ALL i need for a Shiradi Sorc build.
    Most time i just spam Scorching / MM and for more mobs CM. It works fantastic and i think the 2 more FVS are WORTH !!!

    I wonder why u say Wings are essential to be a good Shiradi Sorc... for what u need and use all the other AP in that tree? First i was Air Savant but soon i recognized that i dont even use Electric Spells often enough for it.

    For me the more Force Crit / Spellpower overall (1 per AP in FVS Tree) and a maxed Fire tree is the perfect build right now.

    I will try to write my build in detail in the next hours here... stay tuned, i cant login right now, night duty in Germany but will write what i remember right now
    - Proud Officer of Decameron / Cannith -

    Zangesh qui Clades (Lvl.28), Fire Shiradi Sorc - Bladeforged 14 Sorc / 4 FvS / 2 Pala
    (3xPL Wizard, 1xPL Sorcerer | Epic Completionist 3x Colors of the Queen, 3x Fast Healing, 3x Engery Criticals, 3x Brace, 3x Skill Mastery, 3x Doubleshot, 1xDoublestrike)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Laladi (Lvl.28), Khopesh+Shield Pally - PDK 20 Pala
    (Heroic Completionist | 3x Colors of the Queen, 3x Doublestrike, 2x Enchant Weapon, 2x Power over Life and Death)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Zindragh Zornbinder (Lvl.28), Shuricannon - Drow 20 Monk
    (1xPL Fighter, 3xPL Monk, 1xPL Rouge | 1x Colors of the Queen, 2x Doublestrike, 1x Doubleshot)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Aibus (Lvl.28) Tank - Purple Dragon Knight 13 FvS / 6 Pala / 1 Fig
    (1xPL Monk, 3xPL Pala)

    - man nannte ihn Zangesh qui Clades -

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