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  1. #21
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Anyway, 12/5/3 wizard/rogue/ranger would work. Grab these for trash, these for boss dps.
    Better neg leveling than vampire, average dps with sacrificial (good dps on Agony, though nothing beats negs on trash), evasion, 90% offhand and dex based if you wanted. (And some sneak attack)
    I'm inferring you plan to take Knife Specialization for the crit bonuses; that's fine, but remember that means you can't take Imp Shrouding as well.

  2. #22
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I'm inferring you plan to take Knife Specialization for the crit bonuses; that's fine, but remember that means you can't take Imp Shrouding as well.
    I know. I was hoping to convince OP to use wraith form, hence 12 wizard.
    Won't heal with each hit, but 25% incorp and the ability to be neg-level trash to oblivion sounds fun. (Oh, fine. That's not due to wraith form, that's just life-stealing with a larger crit range.)

  3. #23
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorget View Post
    Maybe use the 12 Wiz / 6 Rgr / 2 Mnk with Shortswords or the afore mentioned Daggers and take the Adept of Forms to GM of Forms feats.
    daggers cannot be used as a monk, you are proficient with them but they'll make you uncentered.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Simple answer - 6 ranger, 2 monk, 12 wizard. In that order.
    You want ranger levels ASAP for ITWF, monk for 2 feats and evasion, wizard last because meh.

    Means you use a fair few cure serious pots though.
    Actually it turns out it's not so simple after all. From a pure ease of leveling standpoint I agree you should do ranger->monk->wizard. But if you want to optimize your skill distribution you should in fact do it the other way around (as I found out by crunching the numbers).

    Ranger has the highest points per level (6), then Monk (4) and last Wizard (2). This means that in the early levels you have to spend points on skills you might not really want simply because the ones you want are capped for that level.

    For a PM you want max Heal, max Spellcraft and max UMD (only 1/2 max UMD is possible because none of these classes get it as a class skill).
    If you do ranger->monk->wizard the best you can get with a human wiz 12 / rng 6 / mnk 2 (or at least the best I could manage to get) is 23 Heal, 6 Spellcraft and 11 UMD (and some points left over to spend on other skills). But if you do wizard->monk->ranger you can get 23 Heal, 23 Spellcraft and 11 UMD (with less points left over to spend in other skills).

    I haven't tested if alternating classes could achieve a more optimal distribution.

  5. #25
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaphael View Post
    Actually it turns out it's not so simple after all. From a pure ease of leveling standpoint I agree you should do ranger->monk->wizard. But if you want to optimize your skill distribution you should in fact do it the other way around (as I found out by crunching the numbers).

    Ranger has the highest points per level (6), then Monk (4) and last Wizard (2). This means that in the early levels you have to spend points on skills you might not really want simply because the ones you want are capped for that level.

    For a PM you want max Heal, max Spellcraft and max UMD (only 1/2 max UMD is possible because none of these classes get it as a class skill).
    If you do ranger->monk->wizard the best you can get with a human wiz 12 / rng 6 / mnk 2 (or at least the best I could manage to get) is 23 Heal, 6 Spellcraft and 11 UMD (and some points left over to spend on other skills). But if you do wizard->monk->ranger you can get 23 Heal, 23 Spellcraft and 11 UMD (with less points left over to spend in other skills).

    I haven't tested if alternating classes could achieve a more optimal distribution.
    Yeah... Drop spellcraft. You won't have the DC's to matter... and it's only for element/force spells irrc, meaning useless for a PM anyway.

    From a theoretical point of view, meh. You're right. From a logical point of view, your build would melee with THF until level 18 (when you get ITWF and GTWF). But, the real issue - monk stances. Adept would be lv 21 feat, master 24.

    I'm sorry, but I'd just drop spell craft (6% of base damage isn't worth that hassle, seeming it doesn't affect necro IRRC).

  6. #26
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    Spellcraft can be useful for 4 DoT's: Melf's Acid Arrow, Eladar's Electric Surge, Niac's Biting Cold and Burning Blood for getting that extra bit of damage in when you really need to. All have no saving throw and no spell resistance check. Plus it can be useful when you like to fight inside a Wall of Fire.

    EDIT: Yeah you're right, all the useful feats would be delayed too much to make it not really worth the hassle.
    Last edited by Rhaphael; 09-17-2013 at 08:31 AM.

  7. #27
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaphael View Post
    Spellcraft can be useful for 4 DoT's: Melf's Acid Arrow, Eladar's Electric Surge, Niac's Biting Cold and Burning Blood for getting that extra bit of damage in when you really need to. All have no saving throw and no spell resistance check. Plus it can be useful when you like to fight inside a Wall of Fire.
    6% of base damage.
    If your wall of fire has 100 base damage, it'll add 6 more. (your WoF has a lot less, however.)
    From DDOwiki: This wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage plus 1 point of fire damage per caster level (Maximum caster level 15.)
    Assuming you're a level 12 wizard (max you'll get), you'll be doing 17-28. Meaning 6 spell craft is less than 1.5 damage per tic.

    Look, I can't make you drop it. But you're going to an extreme length for a tiny amount of damage.

  8. #28
    Community Member Skavenaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinusWyllt View Post
    Yeah, I can see that, have to spend 20, anyway, if you want wraithform as an option, so 12 more can't be a big deal.

    You've actually used Cloak of Night and observed the reduction? (I know what the text says, that isn't always how it works in game.)
    i play a 11 cleric / 7 wiz / 2 monk build thats always on vampire. With cloak of shadow rank 1 (20%) + 30 % from born in the light twist i dont have any problems with light damage.

  9. #29
    Community Member Cyndder's Avatar
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    After the new enhancement lines came into play and the addition of war priest I've been playing around with a concept build--it is at lvl 28 I'm still working on some destinies atm-- that is is 8 epic / 7 cleric / 7 wizard / 6 rogue. I have rogue skills in the upper 70's (open locks) low 80's (disable device), full fighter attack bonus from the war-priest line, vampire form from palemaster, negative energy burst as a spell like ability from divine disciple, and dex based weapon attack and damage from the assassin line.

    The biggest disappointments I've seen so far are from the shadow dancer epics not working (shadow cloak) with death auras or neg energy burst which is healing on an undead form character not damage...opened a bug report on that. I'd also like to see my 'cleric' icon replaced with the epic icon...it would cause more people to read my bio in a party rather than assume I am there to keep all of them alive--especially in the advertised 'BYOH and be self sufficient LFMs I hit quite often'. IF it is a a straight up healer they need and I'm working destinies I won't hit the LFM unless there is some piece of gear I'm after then I'll switch to exalted angel and take on that role.

    The toon has a lot of versatility; I've helped heal an EH FOT run ( exalted angel destiny). but your typical EN, EH content I'm playing a dual wielding double death aura'd, vampiric two weapon fighter (using level draining weapons for most trash), with neg energy burst, in primal avatar destiny. The toon is ghostly, and blurred from gear, has 16% dodge atm, displacement is available from spells, and I can flip in 25% incorp and another 50% dodge from the primal avatar tree abilities. I still need to cap (getting close) the primal avatar tree, and do the arcane sphere to get a few more fate points and the ability to twist in a few other goodies...but overall the toon is working out. As to melee'ing goes; while it was a bit painful I have run an EE TOR in melee with all the dragon's --the opening fight really being the only painful part.

    The other 'upside' is true necro's like it because we can feed off of each other's death arua's and my neg energy burst can heal them (7SP for a max, emp, quickened burst of 'neg healing'). I'm also neg lvling the stuff so finger/destruction/wail are hitting more for the other casters in the party...not counting any weapon wielders with phantasmal killer and like on them.

    Another thing worth noting; is rejuvenation may not work to heal an undead but the temp 150 HP does; and it's a cheap spot heal ability for keeping others alive with this toon (until I can get renewal twisted). Anyway there are many ways of getting a concept like this to work and ensuring the party knows what your role in the party is ( vampirc fighting rogue who can spot heal most of the time) or by switching destines can be a party healer..just no mass healing available and who is capable of providing support to the necro's as well.


    BTW, worth noting I have 20 toons between 22-28 with several different classes and build combinations and I will say that THIS combo is very gear intensive and is not suited to all play styles; it won't out DPS a blitzing barbarian or hold aggro of TO in FOT...but it can fill a variety of roles in a party.
    Leader Apocalyptic Knights Khyber
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  10. #30
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    Don't you feel your Neg Energy Burst is kinda weak with only 7 Cleric levels? How much does it hit you for on average? Same for the Death Aura's and 7 Wizard levels.

    Great to hear that it works for you, I'm just curious about the numbers.

  11. #31
    Community Member Cyndder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaphael View Post
    Don't you feel your Neg Energy Burst is kinda weak with only 7 Cleric levels? How much does it hit you for on average? Same for the Death Aura's and 7 Wizard levels.

    Great to hear that it works for you, I'm just curious about the numbers.
    Good questions, The lesser death aura hits me--amp is different on full necro's of course-- for 3-12 points a tic every 2 seconds. The Death aura hits for 15-63 a tic. So that is 18-75 points every 2 seconds for 124 seconds. Now every hit scores another +1 point of 'neg healing' and the neg energy burst...sample numbers here--hits from 92-228ish every 6 seconds...as needed.

    So using low-ball number that is 146 points every 6 seconds to around 450ish at the high-end for the same time period--not counting of course the +1 for every hit or the 150 temp
    you can get every 12 seconds from rejuv.

    Now, here is the kicker; tier 5 ability walk with the spirits of primal avatar gives you 25% incorporeal, makes you ethereal and invisible while primal travel gives you an additional 50% bonus to dodge.

    So base with a 66 AC, 16% dodge, 10% ghostly, 20% blur my true AC % is 42.5% according to the DDO armor class tool against a CR 80 mob. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-AC-Calculator

    Now a 66 AC, 66% dodge, 25% incorp, 50% displacement takes me to an 87.5% AC (not counting any bonuses for being invisible)...for a short time anyway. Taking away the walk with the spirits it is still an 85% AC modifier.

    Now here is the kicker; every tick of the death auras adds spirits as does every melee strike and neg energy burst so you can keep up the higher AC% in a big fight longer before needing to reactivating walk the spirits...if needed.

    In short you have to pay close attention to your buff bars as well as your HP if your in melee mode. Chill of winter, summer smoke, are always active and Stormrage with sneak attack also play into the fight because of the improved deception item I'm wearing. So while damage is not over the top blitz damage I can can deal a fair amount of damage...and if someone else has the aggro then I'm sneak attacking on every hit....and if they can be level drained I'm taking from 1-4 levels when gear hits or I crit with a 20 (not counting double-strikes).
    Leader Apocalyptic Knights Khyber
    Alts Dustia, Fierry, Divus, Serpins, Cognatio, Atrau, Leigharoy, Pinkish, Triturate (Ret.) Harragan, Cynderr, Ginnsu, Cyndder, Calagian, Gorthagus, Bluntaxe, Zarloc, Docbot

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyndder View Post
    After the new enhancement lines came into play and the addition of war priest I've been playing around with a concept build--it is at lvl 28 I'm still working on some destinies atm-- that is is 8 epic / 7 cleric / 7 wizard / 6 rogue. I have rogue skills in the upper 70's (open locks) low 80's (disable device), full fighter attack bonus from the war-priest line, vampire form from palemaster, negative energy burst as a spell like ability from divine disciple, and dex based weapon attack and damage from the assassin line.
    Could you please post a breakdown of your build? I would really like to try it. But as stated above, I suck at planning these things myself.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnd101 View Post
    i have another crazy idea that may be worth looking into with your own twists. 12 wizzy/6 rangr/ 2 monk. 12 wizzy for undead forms and self healing/buffs. 6 ranger for itwf and manyshot as well as access to tempest tree. Then two monk for unarmed fighting and stunning fist. Not leveled in this order however. Strength focused with just enough dex using tome to get gtwf. Then some intelligence and a good bit of wisdom for stunning. would pick up zen archery somewhere to use wisdom as attack mod for bows and center you. Then switch between manyshot w/bow and stunning fist w/wraps. Keep Tensers, and death auras on at all times. I havent worked out all the feats and enhancements yet but its mostly an idea atm.
    That's not a weird build at all, because I'm in the process of leveling that right now (minus the ranged option and using shortswords not unarmed).

    Now what IS a weird class combination is (Drow) 15 Wizard / 3 Favored Soul / 2 Monk. Base 12 wizzy / 2 monk for the usual undead stuff then 3 FvS for Articles of Faith to make your shortswords spellcasting implements, Shield of Condemnation as well as some Warpriest stuff. With dual Celestias this would mean up to +27 implement bonus to general spellpower (=better self-healing) and you would hit extra hard because of the Light debuff from SoC.

  14. #34
    The Hatchery Nédime's Avatar
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    Anyway don't forget light dammage mitigation if you intend on going vampire - searing lights really DO hurt. With the quasi-disappearance of the post-MotU random loot (radiant prism) the main choices that remains are 1. Shroud of the Abbot, 2. Epic Phiarlan Mirror Cloak and 3. Pale Rod
    The Abbot thing, while needing a seal for the upgrade is very convenient as it also provides boon of undeath AND is only ml 14.
    Aezechiel (Caster, 8th life) - Kakophonyc (Bard, 2nd life) - Larsenkarden (Cleric, 3rd life) - Lewela (Bard, 6th life) - Punkcanard (dual deathnip centered halfling tempest 3rd life) - Usuldur (Melee, completionist) - Sylentbob (ranger) ... and a couple of mules


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