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  1. #1
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    Default paladin enhancements need help

    With divines getting War Priest and monks getting a buff to Henshin Mystic because of public outcry I figured why not articulate some of the issues with paladins in the hopes of getting their enhancements improved.

    Problem one, a large amount of the enhancements can be bought well before you can actually use them. Tier one KotC has Divine Light and Extra Turning which you can't actually use until paladin level 4 and remove disease which you can't use until level 6. Tier two has Improved Turning and Divine Might which you can't use for another two paladin levels and tier 3 has Improved Restoration which requires paladin level 6. Sacred Defender is a little better about this but every tier has a buff to your Sacred Defensive Stance of which you can't use until paladin level 6.

    Problem two, a lot of the enhancements are just bad. I get the desire to try and get all the old enhancements moved over to the new system but things like Improved Turning and divine light are kind of useless, and either should have been dropped or buffed into something more useful. Clerics can destroy any undead they'd normally frighten if they take the RS ability to do so and they're +3 on die checks as paladins get a -3 hit. Turning for paladins I don't think is really viable at end game where monster CRs go through the roof, and for more causal players I don't see much merit either, they'll have to buff charisma very high and equip some questionable gear just to be able to turn undead that're lower level than them.

    Attack boost is something that ideally they should never need, they get full BAB like a fighter and the spell divine favor which should keep them even with fighters as they take their weapon spec feats. If paladins are falling behind in to-hit compared to fighters then please add some passive enhancement to fix this, attack boost is a pretty bad way to do this as it locks out other class boosts from being run concurrently.

    Rally costs 6 AP to max out and is generally beaten by greater heroism. Paladins past level 3 do not need the will buff vs fear and their party members will generally have GH running either from a friendly arcane or their own clicky or scroll after level 9 or so. Plus 3 morale damage is nice but it's incredibly expensive(6 AP) and once you get past the mid levels that's all it's adding, if you have a good hope clicky or bard then it's down to +1 morale damage for 6 AP.

    Extra remove disease/greater restoration. The extra removes will generally only get use for people wanting greater resto as paladins get vanilla restoration as a spell, for more casual players I can see some benefit to it but with UMD being so easy to get to high levels and greater resto scrolls being sold by vendors I don't see much benefit personally. Even for the casual crowd they could just cast restoration a few times and save the AP though, so they're still bad.

    Sacred Defenders get positive spell power but Hunters of the Dead do not. This is just strange to me, when doing paladin TRs I'd generally throw a cure or two and all my LoHs on the bosses in necro 1 before getting into melee range. When I was still new to the game I still did this in PoP and the like as it really did help as my DPS was bad, healing the dead should really be an option and I don't see why Hunter miss out on pos energy.

    Censure Demons. On vorpal stun for 3 seconds is pretty weak, demons are pretty rare and only getting 3 seconds of fun on a roll of a 20 is pretty sad. Sure you can upgrade it with Censure Outsider which will do the same for all chaotic OR evil outsiders but it's both too narrow in monsters susceptible and too short in duration for a random proc.

    Champion of Good. The main reason people used to take the paladin capstone was for the good DR bypass, but honestly Bless Weapon is a level 1 paladin spell that should have been added a long time ago. So please add that and make the capstone something better, +2 cha, +2 saves vs enchant(GH covers fear at mid to late game), +1d6 holy vs evil and 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders is pretty weak when compared to what other classes get.

    I purposefully didn't talk about tanks much as I feel those issues are not only beyond the scope of the enhancement pass but because I honestly haven't played one in a long time, tanking hasn't been useful or fun in a very long time for me. If you do still play a tank and have strong feelings about the enhancements then please post your experiences, heck if you agree or disagree with anything please post. I just wanted to start a dialogue about issues I see with paladins post enhancement update and I know I probably missed a lot of things, so please articulate your specific issues and complaints. Just saying paladins are bad lol doesn't really help, I think we need to get into specific detail and maybe even suggestions for fixes.

    TLDR: The paladin enhancements aren't very good, please make them better.
    Last edited by Ayseifn; 09-15-2013 at 03:10 AM.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Default

    Well said.

    /signed.

    The problem with the outcry is: You need to find people who still care and who haven't LR'd out of a pure-ish paladin.
    Toons on Orien: Meinir // Flodur // Twiddler // Thorkar // Impetor // Juliacantor // Minor all Soko Irrlicht
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    We may or may not intentionally insert in red herrings, purple mackerels, or horses of different colors. Void where prohibited. Not available in all planes of existence.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    With divines getting War Priest and monks getting a buff to Henshin Mystic because of public outcry I figured why not articulate some of the issues with paladins in the hopes of getting their enhancements improved.

    Problem one, a large amount of the enhancements can be bought well before you can actually use them. Tier one KotC has Divine Light and Extra Turning which you can't actually use until paladin level 4 and remove disease which you can't use until level 6. Tier two has Improved Turning and Divine Might which you can't use for another two paladin levels and tier 3 has Improved Restoration which requires paladin level 6. Sacred Defender is a little better about this but every tier has a buff to your Sacred Defensive Stance of which you can't use until paladin level 6.

    Problem two, a lot of the enhancements are just bad. I get the desire to try and get all the old enhancements moved over to the new system but things like Improved Turning and divine light are kind of useless, and either should have been dropped or buffed into something more useful. Clerics can destroy any undead they'd normally frighten if they take the RS ability to do so and they're +3 on die checks as paladins get a -3 hit. Turning for paladins I don't think is really viable at end game where monster CRs go through the roof, and for more causal players I don't see much merit either, they'll have to buff charisma very high and equip some questionable gear just to be able to turn undead that're lower level than them.

    Attack boost is something that ideally they should never need, they get full BAB like a fighter and the spell divine favor which should keep them even with fighters as they take their weapon spec feats. If paladins are falling behind in to-hit compared to fighters then please add some passive enhancement to fix this, attack boost is a pretty bad way to do this as it locks out other class boosts from being run concurrently.

    Rally costs 6 AP to max out and is generally beaten by greater heroism. Paladins past level 3 do not need the will buff vs fear and their party members will generally have GH running either from a friendly arcane or their own clicky or scroll after level 9 or so. Plus 3 morale damage is nice but it's incredibly expensive(6 AP) and once you get past the mid levels that's all it's adding, if you have a good hope clicky or bard then it's down to +1 morale damage for 6 AP.

    Extra remove disease/greater restoration. The extra removes will generally only get use for people wanting greater resto as paladins get vanilla restoration as a spell, for more casual players I can see some benefit to it but with UMD being so easy to get to high levels and greater resto scrolls being sold by vendors I don't see much benefit personally. Even for the casual crowd they could just cast restoration a few times and save the AP though, so they're still bad.

    Sacred Defenders get positive spell power but Hunters of the Dead do not. This is just strange to me, when doing paladin TRs I'd generally throw a cure or two and all my LoHs on the bosses in necro 1 before getting into melee range. When I was still new to the game I still did this in PoP and the like as it really did help as my DPS was bad, healing the dead should really be an option and I don't see why Hunter miss out on pos energy.

    Censure Demons. On vorpal stun for 3 seconds is pretty weak, demons are pretty rare and only getting 3 seconds of fun on a roll of a 20 is pretty sad. Sure you can upgrade it with Censure Outsider which will do the same for all chaotic OR evil outsiders but it's both too narrow in monsters susceptible and too short in duration for a random proc.

    Champion of Good. The main reason people used to take the paladin capstone was for the good DR bypass, but honestly Bless Weapon is a level 1 paladin spell that should have been added a long time ago. So please add that and make the capstone something better, +2 cha, +2 saves vs enchant(GH covers fear at mid to late game), +1d6 holy vs evil and 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders is pretty weak when compared to what other classes get.

    I purposefully didn't talk about tanks much as I feel those issues are not only beyond the scope of the enhancement pass but because I honestly haven't played one in a long time, tanking hasn't been useful or fun in a very long time for me. If you do still play a tank and have strong feelings about the enhancements then please post your experiences, heck if you agree or disagree with anything please post. I just wanted to start a dialogue about issues I see with paladins post enhancement update and I know I probably missed a lot of things, so please articulate your specific issues and complaints. Just saying paladins are bad lol doesn't really help, I think we need to get into specific detail and maybe even suggestions for fixes.

    TLDR: The paladin enhancements aren't very good, please make them better.
    The only halfway useful enhancement is the +1 AC.

    You could go all the way up the sacred tree to get +10 physical defense or get more defense going up the shianto tree to tier 3

  4. #4
    Community Member Shaude's Avatar
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    Default dev's pls help pallies work in groups

    Was thinking of starting this thread myself. I take my hat to you sir for doing so.

    Myself tried to run a pally tank in a static so dps was a very little issue but as it turned out just trying to kill a mob to keep agro since i have little dps is quite difficult, with the bug i switch weapons a few times to get my best dps and dropped to 50 HP from 350ish into less than 10 secs. so what good is a broke tank? yea cool i can use my loh to heal after i switch weapons 4 times then what die? As i can tell about the only thing a pally is in the top 5 for.

    i hate to say it but there is very little enhancement wise that an other class can not do better.

    What is with the divines getting divine might at tier 1 and a melee class getting it at tier 2 i mean *** guys...is pally that hard to program thAt NOONE SHOULD PLAY IT. it seems that way as other than the past live the only benifit for pally is a multiclass by putting 2 levels of pally in it for the save boost b/c after lvl 2 pally is a worst melee than any other melee or specialist and even less than a few casters.

    for a HOLY fighter a pally seems to get the holy shaft side of it no damage spells and little to no benefit from enhancements, as a few other class tier 5 get amazing damage or great effects a pally 3 sec stun on a favored enemy DEMONS. or as one class an increase in ppr and damage die plus the raise after death and the dont have to be in a broken stance to do so...that seems fair right?


    dev's if u don't have any idea's on how to better it add an other enhancement line and might as well add it to fighter as well i guess

    CAVALIER as in pnp it was a sub class in ad&d and even in 2nd forget name but even a version on it in 3 rd edition not sure past that, as the game is pushed to dps and less tank it would be nice to have the only class left behind moved up to join the rest of the ddo classes.

    i hope this was helpful and not to much me babbling. i like the pally class and would like to be able to play it and not get skipped in parties "b/c pallies cant dps" and what need is there for a non dps melee in a world where tanks aren't needed in over 90% of the content.

    'edit'
    read this and made me chuckle

    The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold law, and the POWER to defeat evil - these are the three weapons of the paladin.
    Last edited by Shaude; 09-15-2013 at 02:34 PM. Reason: new info

  5. #5
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    /signed

    To me that main problem are the defensive enhancements. First they make AC barely worth building for. Then, they make it ridiculously expensive to build for. It makes no sense. In the old AP system you got like +30% ? ac (shields and armor), +6str, +6con, +20% hp, +75% threat, +20PRR in stance, plus almost that much out of stance for a grand total of ....8AP. Now, just getting the +50AC to armor and shields costs 12AP, add in shield and armor mastery for another 3 each. Threat will cost you another 6! REALLY?!?! Who is going to blow 18 AP on nearly useless AC and 6 more on threat, especially on a build very tight on AP? To get what you used to get for 8AP now costs like 36. To me, they need to either combine all the AC and shield buffs into 1 that cost 2 per tier, or get rid of them entirely and make them some kind of unique typed miss chance. Maybe something like this:
    Tier 1:
    Sacred protection (2AP): gain 10% sacred miss chance
    Tier 2:
    Sacred protection (2AP): increase your sacred miss chance by 10%
    Tier 3:
    Sacred protection (2AP): increase your sacred miss chance by 10%
    Armor of Faith (2AP): increase your sacred miss chance when wearing armor by +5 in light armor, +10 in medium, +15 in heavy.
    Tier 4:
    Protector's Shield (2AP): increase your sacred miss chance when using a shield by +3 for light, +6 for heavy, +9 for tower.
    Tier 5:
    Zealot's Shield (1AP/tier) Gain +3/+6/+9 sacred bonus to doublestrike when using a shield and 25%/50%/75% to threat.

    Now we're talking tank, at least a bit. Or, ya know, they could make AC meaningful again and reduce the costs bout 75% by combining abilities.
    Last edited by Inoukchuk; 09-15-2013 at 05:43 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    title says it all. pre-enhancement pass I thought they were really good if you knew how to build one, but the new enhancements need a major re-work. I rely on smites to actually have good dps numbers and well they can run out fast.

  7. #7
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    I agree with the title.

    The defensive side is expensive but not useful enough.

    the offensive side seems akward but the real problem is not enough smites.
    Wherever you went - here you are.

  8. #8

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    I was thinking the other day of how pallies could be helped, since they're clearly behind in terms of dps.

    Shortening the smite regen from 90 seconds (or whatever it is) to 20 seconds would help as an easy first step. This still wouldn't fix them, but it would help.

  9. #9
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyadra View Post
    You could go all the way up the sacred tree to get +10 physical defense or get more defense going up the shianto tree to tier 3
    Earth stance monk / pally could get both Iron Skin and Harbored by Light. Maybe monk 12 / pal 6 / ftr 2? The annoying thing is Greater Sacred Defense gets you nothing on non-S&B builds, so you'd have to waste a lot of APs on stuff like aura bonuses, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Shortening the smite regen from 90 seconds (or whatever it is) to 20 seconds would help as an easy first step. This still wouldn't fix them, but it would help.
    Endless Turning is now a Radiant Servant ability; why not add Endless Smiting to KotC tree?

  10. #10
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    There are a number of Paladin enhancements that aren't that worth the APs, but there are some enhancements that are very nice. Just like before the enhancement pass, you have to really pick and choose the winners from the losers. If it's not a winner / doesn't seem like a winner for you, then don't pick it. From a Paladin S&B Defender standpoint, if you pick and choose from both the Knight and Defender tree, you can make a pretty good Paladin. My Paladin is definitely stronger since the update. In any event, to help out DPS focused Paladins out there, below are my suggestions for the Knight tree.

    Knight Tree Suggestions
    The main issue with the Knight Tree is that it has too many abilities that only work a small portion of the time / in only a small amount of content. In particular, below is my short list of recommended changes:

    Slayer of Evil I - III:
    It's just a platinum sink that this ability only works against undead or evil outsiders, as people (at least me) reset your tree based on what content you are going to run. It should work on both. Ideally though, it should work against ANY evil opponent to make Paladins better overall against evil opponents. After all, the enhancement is called Slayer of "Evil", not Slayer of "Undead or Evil Outsiders, and you need to pick one or the other."

    Rally:
    This is too expensive at 6APs for an ability that can only be up 1 minute out of 3. The cost should be 1AP per tier.

    Censure Demons:
    So, over how many quests are you up against chaotic evil outsiders? Instead, it should be Censure Chaotic Evil, and work against any chaotic evil opponent (just not named though).

    Passion:
    Again, another example of an ability that only works a limited amount of time, so it's not worth the APs. This should work against any evil enemy.

    Censure Outsiders:
    Again, over how many quests will the ability be useful? Instead this should be Censure Evil, and work against any evil opponent (except named mobs)

    Holy Retribution:
    This is very cool while leveling up, but only until you have enough APs for it, but not as useful when you get into epics due to the 1000HP cap. Remove the cap completely and make this run on a cooldown timer instead of turn undeads.

    I have suggestions for the Defender tree as well, but I'm out of time. In any event, I expect this to fall on deaf ears anyways. *shrugs*
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

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