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  1. #1
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    Default 20th raid rewards (skill upgrade swim +3 to +4 from FoT)

    Seriously? The only tome I can get is a swim upgrade? Not even a skill tome, but an upgrade. That 500 favor reward looks pretty enticing right now...

    Previously you could get +4 stat tomes or the occasional +4 to +5 stat upgrade. Now you just get +3 to +4 upgrade, and seems like it's likely to be an useless random skill tome instead of an almost as annoying +3 to +4 upgrade stat tome.

    But, to balance things out, instead of grinding 20 epic raid completions for +3 to +4 swim, you can just do Mabar to get a +6 stat of your choice. So basically, only play this poorly balanced excuse of the endgame for a couple of weeks every year?

    There is a deep deep silence on the borked raid completion numbers, but even less information about the 20th rewards. Is this intended? Are we to ignore raids even for tomes, and the only way to get tomes is to be active during Mabar, buy from DDOStore, or try to get lucky with the zilch chance of pulling a tome from chest (and it seems even the chest pulls are borked, getting +3 tomes in 27+ level chests, that shouldn't happen, right?).

    No wonder the raids are so seldom run recently.

  2. #2
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Wow, yah that's pretty messed up. Skill tomes (especially such small ones!) should only show up as part of "loot" portion of the reward list, not as a 20th run special reward. If a skill tome was to be a special reward on a high end raid like that, it should at the very least be a high + value skill tome from a select few set of skills, ie balance, concentration, UMD...

    Yet another head scratcher from the fine folks that patched/hot-fixed in a heroic/epic completion counter system that may or may not get used in the future, but uncorrectably broke completion counts in the present...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  3. #3
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I would not be happy if my 20th reward list consisted of any kind of skill tome.

  4. #4
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I would not be happy if my 20th reward list consisted of any kind of skill tome.
    who needs stat tomes anymore? I thought everyone would of bought the +5 supreme from the store? Isn't that the *whole* point to this change?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I would not be happy if my 20th reward list consisted of any kind of skill tome.
    Reportedly the 20th reward list for Abbot contains ability tomes, ability upgrade tomes, and skill upgrade tomes. My bet is on all raids dropping skill upgrade tomes (but no base skill tomes).
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backley View Post
    Reportedly the 20th reward list for Abbot contains ability tomes, ability upgrade tomes, and skill upgrade tomes. My bet is on all raids dropping skill upgrade tomes (but no base skill tomes).
    Yea, skill tomes are messed up as such, but upgrade skilltomes are just insulting.

  7. #7
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I've noticed a few threads on this topic and yet still no dev response. A comment to the devs.

    If you are having such a hard time coming up with a justification for a change that you can either put in release notes or post on the forums, perhaps that change wasn't such a good one in the first place.

    Just some food for thought. I for one don't want to see this topic die before it gets a dev comment of some type so keep these threads coming until it gets some attention.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    who needs stat tomes anymore? I thought everyone would of bought the +5 supreme from the store? Isn't that the *whole* point to this change?
    nah, people are learning to not waste their money when they know a higher tome will be following shortly in the store. how long after Mabar will +6 tomes be in the store? ;p

  9. #9
    Community Member mrphlegm's Avatar
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    Embarassing behaviour from Turbine... It's just all these small steps in the wrong direction that make me so uncomfortable. While I'm still hooked and do enjoy a TR run every few months, I could never recommend this game to ..anyone.

    It's an amazing game - but turbine seems hell bent on p*****g all over their customers at any opportunity they get.

    I guess they are, in fact, just another generic license-game cashgrab developer... (lol, or am i slow for only realizing this now)

  10. #10
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrphlegm View Post
    Embarassing behaviour from Turbine... It's just all these small steps in the wrong direction that make me so uncomfortable. While I'm still hooked and do enjoy a TR run every few months, I could never recommend this game to ..anyone.

    It's an amazing game - but turbine seems hell bent on p*****g all over their customers at any opportunity they get.

    I guess they are, in fact, just another generic license-game cashgrab developer... (lol, or am i slow for only realizing this now)
    So to summarize...

    1. You would not recommend this game to anyone, but according to you its an amazing game, you are hooked and you can't stop playing it? I recommend this game to anyone I know that is into gaming and they enjoy it very much.
    >>> I have played several MMO's and have found NONE that is even a close second to play. Other MMO's only wish they had the niche DDO has. Turbines only area of improvement is marketing in my opinion.
    2. Yes, Turbine is a business and they do have to make a profit on DDO in order to keep bringing us this amazing game. If you just realized that Turbine needs to make money then I guess you are slow.
    3. In my opinion since Turbine launched into the Forgotten Realms they have made no wrong steps since then.
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  11. #11
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    On... some other site... a raid loot table was posted. Looks like 50% of the chance of getting a stat tome got replaced with upgrade skill tomes. And of the remaining 50% for stat tomes, instead of upgrade stat tomes being 25% and BTA like they were, upgrade stat tomes are now 80% and BTC.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    2. Yes, Turbine is a business and they do have to make a profit on DDO in order to keep bringing us this amazing game. If you just realized that Turbine needs to make money then I guess you are slow.
    A little less of *shovel-in-face* managing and customer treatment is highly claimed. I hate those stealth changes. Tomes dropping more frequently back then was a high motivation to buy the packs. Nerfing it down after some time is blatant exploitation of customers.

    While other games make you feel good, DDO frequently makes you feel bad for paying them.
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  13. #13
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    A little less of *shovel-in-face* managing and customer treatment is highly claimed. I hate those stealth changes. Tomes dropping more frequently back then was a high motivation to buy the packs. Nerfing it down after some time is blatant exploitation of customers.

    While other games make you feel good, DDO frequently makes you feel bad for paying them.
    /not signed

    I guess I just don't feel what your feeling. I would like a 100% random D&D based die roll system with loot tables based upon the quest level per D&D rule set. I am not in favor of the 20th completion automatic list of tomes and named raid items but it is here now. I am in favor of a great storyline with more immersive content and D&D feel from FR, it is finally getting here in FR. Build the quest great first, the loot and XP will come. If the focus of players is to run a quest only for a specific piece of loot then any game producer should consider it a fail.

    Best Scenario: I want to put up an LFM for a quest in FR where the quest is so great that when chests are opened and the end reward is given players accept their loot with little no fanfare. Mostly all they are talking about is wow, that is a great, fun quest and has the true D&D feel to it.
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  14. #14
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Then you need to play RttToEE, maybe, since DDO had that totally random system and was near to die due to that. It is no RP game.

    Nostalgia is fine but the game elements you are claiming are old school dungeon crawl, which DDO has passed long ago, i it everpossessed them. The evolution adheres real time hack'n slay. The loot progression was adapted but then, when finally people were happy again they saw another cash opportunity among all the existing ones, which I see astotally enough.

    You are describing a different game, though. That exists within all round-based dungeon crawl games. Those are not DDO.

    Anyway, my critique is directed at the heads in charge, not the game layout.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 09-15-2013 at 10:33 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    who needs stat tomes anymore? I thought everyone would of bought the +5 supreme from the store? Isn't that the *whole* point to this change?
    As an acrobat with ring of lies and dreampiercer already acquired, the other FoT loot looks less interesting than any random chest loot. So, if there's not even +5 tomes to look for, doing the raid just for commendations doesn't really seem worth it.

    And, doing the latest raid being 'not worth it', there's just something fundamentally wrong.

  16. #16
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Then you need to play RttToEE, maybe, since DDO had that totally random system and was near to die due to that. It is no RP game.

    Nostalgia is fine but the game elements you are claiming are old school dungeon crawl, which DDO has passed long ago, i it everpossessed them. The evolution adheres real time hack'n slay. The loot progression was adapted but then, when finally people were happy again they saw another cash opportunity among all the existing ones, which I see astotally enough.

    You are describing a different game, though. That exists within all round-based dungeon crawl games. Those are not DDO.

    Anyway, my critique is directed at the heads in charge, not the game layout.
    There is a need by a MMO to adapt from a turn based, dungeon crawl system I agree. DDO has never been what you are implying what I want in a game. DDO has been and always needs to remain in tune with the D&D lore and system even if it is in a very loose interpretation. The loot system currently in DDO does have some D&D rule set flavor to it whether you or others see it or not. Skill tomes was a god implementation to the game in need of some higher level type rewards. I agree that a +4 skill tome is not as sexy as a +4 ability tome but it doesn't have to be. It adds a new random surprise at the reward system abd I like it.
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  17. #17
    Community Member mrphlegm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shores11 View Post
    So to summarize...
    1. You would not recommend this game to anyone, but according to you its an amazing game, you are hooked and you can't stop playing it? I recommend this game to anyone I know that is into gaming and they enjoy it very much.
    Yeah, what is confusing to you? I like the game and have invested a lot of time in it. amazing was perhaps a strong word since the enjoyment i get is rather fleeting and unfulfilling, yet it satisfies some kind of urge... Much like cigarettes. I'm not telling people to start smoking either.

    I don't like a developer who will take every chance it gets to design annoyances into this game and then make me pay to avoid them. It ****es me off to no end.
    A wise man once said "Turbine does not appreciate enough the amount of **** people put up with to play DND".

    >>> I have played several MMO's and have found NONE that is even a close second to play. Other MMO's only wish they had the niche DDO has. Turbines only area of improvement is marketing in my opinion.

    Hehe, ok.


    2. Yes, Turbine is a business and they do have to make a profit on DDO in order to keep bringing us this amazing game. If you just realized that Turbine needs to make money then I guess you are slow.

    Do they have to do it in the most annoying way possible? They have no respect for their customers.

    Check out the press conferences that SOE had when they revealed Everquest Next. The passion they show about their game is incredible - and the things they do to progress the medium are also impressive. Developers who enjoy what they are doing make better games, which leads to a more fulfilling experience to their customers.



    3. In my opinion since Turbine launched into the Forgotten Realms they have made no wrong steps since then.

    Ugh, I'm not going to write an essay on all the things they've done wrong in the last year.

  18. #18
    Community Member cave_diver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I've noticed a few threads on this topic and yet still no dev response. A comment to the devs.

    If you are having such a hard time coming up with a justification for a change that you can either put in release notes or post on the forums, perhaps that change wasn't such a good one in the first place.

    Just some food for thought. I for one don't want to see this topic die before it gets a dev comment of some type so keep these threads coming until it gets some attention.
    I was one of the ones who started a thread about this about CITW & FOT 20th's. Just plain insulting prior to so called expansion +4 tomes & + 4 to 5 upgrades. Post expansion, +3 tomes & +3 to 4 upgrades.


    We used to run TOD for +4's now we are getting +3's in higher lvl raids? Some comment would be nice.

    I have bug reported it...but not expecting much
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  19. #19
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cave_diver View Post
    I was one of the ones who started a thread about this about CITW & FOT 20th's. Just plain insulting prior to so called expansion +4 tomes & + 4 to 5 upgrades. Post expansion, +3 tomes & +3 to 4 upgrades.


    We used to run TOD for +4's now we are getting +3's in higher lvl raids? Some comment would be nice.

    I have bug reported it...but not expecting much
    Agreed. I feel that the people chatting back and forth about the skill tomes are completely missing the big picture. There is currently (to my knowledge at least) no way in game to earn anything higher than a +4 upgrade skill or ability tome anymore. You used to get +4 tomes and +4 to +5 upgrades in level 27+ treasure. This was nixed with U19. You used to have a chance at +4's or +4 to +5 upgrades in some raid 20th reward lists. This was nixed when they fixed the 20th rewards or possibly in U19 but wasn't noticed until later. High level loot tables past level 31 seem to be borked in some way so if high level tomes are supposed to drop there, something wonky is going on and needs to be looked at. Long story short, +5 tomes are just not dropping anymore in the places they used to. You might have the 1 in 20,000 chance in EE CitW and you still have a shot with gold roll daily dice as well as the new Mabar rewards, but from chests? Nope. This should have been documented in release notes, but was not for some unknown reason. Dev response is necessary to clear up whether this is a bug or just a massive nerf.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 09-15-2013 at 02:54 PM.
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  20. #20
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shores11 View Post
    There is a need by a MMO to adapt from a turn based, dungeon crawl system I agree. DDO has never been what you are implying what I want in a game. DDO has been and always needs to remain in tune with the D&D lore and system even if it is in a very loose interpretation. The loot system currently in DDO does have some D&D rule set flavor to it whether you or others see it or not. Skill tomes was a god implementation to the game in need of some higher level type rewards. I agree that a +4 skill tome is not as sexy as a +4 ability tome but it doesn't have to be. It adds a new random surprise at the reward system abd I like it.
    I don't have a problem with skill tomes in general. I have a problem with the potentially overall droprate nerf, which was not documented in some release notes or patch notes or bug lists (thought this was clear by my first post). There is no dev. response to that as well. The whole pile of junk they are feeding us is not related to any fluffy carebear dnd world.

    Whoever makes those decisions must have worked as a salesman in a cell phone shop. They sell you hidden lamas, too. Turbine's is spitting all over us right now. The impression of what this game is is just different then. For me it is nothing more than a real time hack'n slay with puzzles. The core game is combat. Anything else is distraction so you won't get bored from killing too soon. This is done very well, I might add.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 09-15-2013 at 03:41 PM.
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