Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Cackalacky
    Posts
    9,593

    Default Warpriest, Clerics, FVS, homogenization and usefulness - what I'd like to see

    Here's what I'd like to see.

    For Drow FVS don't autogrant proficiency (they arelady have it) - give them either a sneak die or add hide/move silently as class skills. Toss them a bone. It isn't like anyone thinks Drow FVS are strong and it isn't like you can rationalize that someone who isn't a drow is going to be a FVS of Vulkoor.

    Remove all fire/light spell power on warpriest and replace with healing or universal. Melee divines want to buff, smack things and heal. If they want to zap things, there are other paths for that.

    Add an ability (T3 or T4 maybe) that grants advanced combat skills. Instead of just basic proficiency, expand the list to some other items such that a FVS *may* consider taking it. Maybe drop the Light Guard on T4.
    - Lord of Blades - Grant Greatsword and Bastard Swords. The classical "armblade" from Eberron (attached WF component) is a bastard sword. This gives a fun option to WF.
    - Undying Court - Grant proficiency in scimitars; all weapons wielding by the war priest become ghost touch - again, giving a bone to both Clerics and FVS.
    - Vulkoor - Grant proficiency in short swords; add one sneak die. Cleric's would benefit from both, but it isn't a lost item for a FVS as it adds sneak damage.
    - Sovereign Host - Grant profiency in all weapons of the host ... Long Sword, Battle Axe, Warhammer and Greataxe (no halbred option) - the others in the pantheon are already proficient (mace, morningstar, q-staff).
    - Ammauntorwhoever - Warhammer.
    - Silver Flame - Proficiency with long bows and Bow Strength.

    Ensure all War Priest strikes work with ANY of the granted weapons.

    Change Divine Might to work on Turn Undead. Add an enhancement (T3 maybe) that grants Turn Undead. This gives a nod to clerics, but doesn't eliminate FVS.

    Change Divine Power into Righteous Might. Adds a +4 size bonus to STR, +2 size bonus to CON, -2 size modifier to DEX, etc. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm Keep Divine Power as a spell, but add this one in. This should be an action boost or SLA ... or add it to both spell lists.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  2. #2
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    522

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Here's what I'd like to see.

    For Drow FVS don't autogrant proficiency (they arelady have it) - give them either a sneak die or add hide/move silently as class skills. Toss them a bone. It isn't like anyone thinks Drow FVS are strong and it isn't like you can rationalize that someone who isn't a drow is going to be a FVS of Vulkoor.
    Agreed, but the thing is that now the faith lines automatically grant proficiency with the chosen weapon anyway - it's no longer just a FvS thing. So they all need a bone.

    Remove all fire/light spell power on warpriest and replace with healing or universal. Melee divines want to buff, smack things and heal. If they want to zap things, there are other paths for that.
    Healing, not universal. Universal could be OP if they made the weapons decent.

    Add an ability (T3 or T4 maybe) that grants advanced combat skills. Instead of just basic proficiency, expand the list to some other items such that a FVS *may* consider taking it. Maybe drop the Light Guard on T4.
    - Lord of Blades - Grant Greatsword and Bastard Swords. The classical "armblade" from Eberron (attached WF component) is a bastard sword. This gives a fun option to WF.
    - Undying Court - Grant proficiency in scimitars; all weapons wielding by the war priest become ghost touch - again, giving a bone to both Clerics and FVS.
    - Vulkoor - Grant proficiency in short swords; add one sneak die. Cleric's would benefit from both, but it isn't a lost item for a FVS as it adds sneak damage.
    - Sovereign Host - Grant profiency in all weapons of the host ... Long Sword, Battle Axe, Warhammer and Greataxe (no halbred option) - the others in the pantheon are already proficient (mace, morningstar, q-staff).
    - Ammauntorwhoever - Warhammer.
    - Silver Flame - Proficiency with long bows and Bow Strength.
    My suggestion, since proficiency with the base weapon is automatically granted with the faith line, is to have an enhancement that expands the proficiencies and the weapon types that work with the faith-line-weapon enhancements. The following would be in addition to the base weapon proficiency/righteous weapon bonuses that comes from the faith.

    Lord of Blades: Add Bastard Sword and Falchion
    Vulkoor: All light blades (daggers, kukris, and sickles) and rapiers.
    Sovereign Host: Add Battle Axe, Greataxe, Warhammer, Quarterstaff
    Undying Court: Shortbows, Falchions, Rapier, Maces
    Silver Flame: Shortbows, Crossbows, Repeaters
    Aumauntor: Warhammers, Mauls

    Ensure all War Priest strikes work with ANY of the granted weapons.
    Yes.

    Change Divine Might to work on Turn Undead. Add an enhancement (T3 maybe) that grants Turn Undead. This gives a nod to clerics, but doesn't eliminate FVS.
    No. Not unless they give FvS freakin' Divine Avenger. Like we're supposed to have had since U9. That's 10 updates ago. *waits patiently*

    Change Divine Power into Righteous Might. Adds a +4 size bonus to STR, +2 size bonus to CON, -2 size modifier to DEX, etc. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm Keep Divine Power as a spell, but add this one in. This should be an action boost or SLA ... or add it to both spell lists.
    No. No. No. The appeal of permanent divine power isn't the bonus to strength, it's the BAB=Character level. At level 28 that means a warpriest has a higher BAB than a fighter, which means more attacks.

    The main thing they need is to improve the tier 5 of righteous weapons; either give an enhanced critical range, or give the weapon something more like 3d4 light damager per hit permanently rather than conditionally.
    Thelanis - Dragons of the Shire
    Naeryna (Sun Elf 24 FvS Evoker) // Dianocia (Drow 22 Warlock) // Valissia (Drow 21 Shiradi Druid)
    Nae haz a story. Go read it.

  3. #3
    Community Member Urjak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Malsheem, Nessus, Baator
    Posts
    860

    Default

    The main issue I have with Warpriest is ... why fire and light spellpower?

    I mean light I get somehow ... after all you want to dot the boss ... and divine punishment has no save - so it works fine with battleclerics ...
    But fire??? All of the fire spells have a save => No serious battlecleric will land any of those spells!
    And then: no healing spellpower? The absolute awesome thing about battleclerics (pre U14) was that your healing aura would heal yourself and the other melees during combat => less healing from spells needed ... the warpriest now has weak heals, no aura, no burst ...

    Please, please, please change fire spellpower to healing/positive spellpower! Healing is crucial for a battlecleric (or melee fvs^^)!
    Argonessen (mains):
    Myriellah (Stargazer II), Xryn (Pale Master), Ryaleen (Air Savant), Mayeena (Assassin)
    Leader and founder of the ShadowThieves guild

  4. #4
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Cackalacky
    Posts
    9,593

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dlsidhe View Post
    Agreed, but the thing is that now the faith lines automatically grant proficiency with the chosen weapon anyway - it's no longer just a FvS thing. So they all need a bone.
    Totally agree. I don't know anyone that has SP problems these days - there is only marginal benefit to FVS - especially if they don't get unique trees.

    Healing, not universal. Universal could be OP if they made the weapons decent.
    Fiar enough.



    My suggestion, since proficiency with the base weapon is automatically granted with the faith line, is to have an enhancement that expands the proficiencies and the weapon types that work with the faith-line-weapon enhancements. The following would be in addition to the base weapon proficiency/righteous weapon bonuses that comes from the faith.

    Lord of Blades: Add Bastard Sword and Falchion
    Vulkoor: All light blades (daggers, kukris, and sickles) and rapiers.
    Sovereign Host: Add Battle Axe, Greataxe, Warhammer, Quarterstaff
    Undying Court: Shortbows, Falchions, Rapier, Maces
    Silver Flame: Shortbows, Crossbows, Repeaters
    Aumauntor: Warhammers, Mauls
    Again, very similar. However, I wouldn't mind mixing it up (and I struggle to see the relevants in lore to some) - but we have my suggestions above already so that's cool.


    No. Not unless they give FvS freakin' Divine Avenger. Like we're supposed to have had since U9. That's 10 updates ago. *waits patiently*
    Amen.

    If we get dup trees I want my PM Sorc and Savant Wizard, darnit.

    No. No. No. The appeal of permanent divine power isn't the bonus to strength, it's the BAB=Character level. At level 28 that means a warpriest has a higher BAB than a fighter, which means more attacks
    Eh, I'd need to check in-game but that isn't how divine power works in PNP (like, ever). The BAB is capped at 20 - no warpriest having higher BAB.

    Besides, the tree shouldn't emulate a freaking spell they can already cast (this is my point) - give people something different and one of the classic spells form PNP for a CoDzilla melee-version is Righteous Might.

    The main thing they need is to improve the tier 5 of righteous weapons; either give an enhanced critical range, or give the weapon something more like 3d4 light damager per hit permanently rather than conditionally.
    I personally like tying this *to* the weapon / diety - but I'm crazy that way. We know they can do it though.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  5. #5
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    522

    Default

    Eh, I'd need to check in-game but that isn't how divine power works in PNP (like, ever). The BAB is capped at 20 - no warpriest having higher BAB.
    Nope, Divine Power gives a BAB equal to character level in game. I know it's not PnP-kosher, but its how it works.

    Besides, the tree shouldn't emulate a freaking spell they can already cast (this is my point) - give people something different and one of the classic spells form PNP for a CoDzilla melee-version is Righteous Might.
    Oh, I agree. The first core enhancement should give a bonus to BAB to make it equal to a regular melee. But the permanent Divine Power is a simple way to implement that.


    I personally like tying this *to* the weapon / diety - but I'm crazy that way. We know they can do it though.
    As do I. I just want more weapons per deity. ;-)
    Thelanis - Dragons of the Shire
    Naeryna (Sun Elf 24 FvS Evoker) // Dianocia (Drow 22 Warlock) // Valissia (Drow 21 Shiradi Druid)
    Nae haz a story. Go read it.

  6. #6
    Community Member DrunkDwarves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    123

    Default

    Is no one seriously casting Divine Punishment while they hit on/shoot at mobs? I don't understand the hate against light spell power in the War Priest tree at all. Even if you dump DCs, DP is still going to be a sizable chunk of your DPS. Leave the light spell power as part of the core abilities!

    My Fvs is going to stay my raid healer, but I chose to splash 3 levels of ranger for the soul power enhancement for temp SP every time I shoot my bow. Besides the fact that I can't use smite or any of the enhancements that add to it, I'm having a blast with the War Priest tree on Lamania. I slotted my pinion with a radiance augment (39 implement bonus, 339 light spell power) and am using Gauntlets of Immortality for positive spell power (140 spell power with the heal skill bonus for 331 total and 16% crit). I'll still over heal people in our raids and now I'll be able to contribute more in terms of being able to do a little damage with a bow PLUS have a lot of temp SP.

    Then again I'm using the War Priest tree to add utility to my healer and make him less boring rather than use it as the center of my build. I can see where many people hoping to get more out of being a melee cleric are found wanting here. TBH I think the top tier of the War Priest tree does pale in comparison to many other classes (Arcane Archer, Kensei, Thief Acrobat, Ninja Spy, both wizard PREs, the list goes on). Was actually kinda disappointed there wasn't something at the top that made Wis your hit and/or damage modifier for your weapons. There is work that can be done to make the tree better, and I totally agree with everyone about expanding the weapon choices for the deities on Ebberon. Personally I hope they add a ranged smite option for the first core ability like they did with the melee version of called shot (Silver Flame weapon IS a longbow) and that they have Divine Vessel centered not on the player but at the next mob a player hits.

    Anyway, the Devs did listen to people pleading for a melee tree for clerics so as long as you don't shout them down like most people do customer service reps they'll be willing to at least listen to our suggestions!

    EDIT: I also like the perm Divine Power for the BAB (which includes PRR if you're wearing armor). I have enough buttons to push without babysitting this one and took it for the convenience factor. With keeping divine might up, DP, rebuke foe, and healing party members I feel like I have my hands full already and like having one less button to push.
    Last edited by DrunkDwarves; 09-14-2013 at 09:03 PM.
    Member of Over Raided, level 100 Guild on Orien
    DPS: If it's not solving all your problems, you simply aren't using enough of it.

  7. #7
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    522

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkDwarves View Post
    Is no one seriously casting Divine Punishment while they hit on/shoot at mobs? I don't understand the hate against light spell power in the War Priest tree at all. Even if you dump DCs, DP is still going to be a sizable chunk of your DPS. Leave the light spell power as part of the core abilities!
    I actually have no problem with the light/fire spellpower being there as much as I object to the positive spellpower not being anywhere - seriously, keep the light/fire per core ability, and let the tree get even .75 positive spell power per point spent.

    I'm thrilled to have a melee divine tree. I just want it to be as good as AoV or Season's Herald is in terms of design - IMHO, those two trees are the best example of what *can* be done with the new format.
    Thelanis - Dragons of the Shire
    Naeryna (Sun Elf 24 FvS Evoker) // Dianocia (Drow 22 Warlock) // Valissia (Drow 21 Shiradi Druid)
    Nae haz a story. Go read it.

  8. #8
    Community Member DrunkDwarves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    123

    Default

    I definitely agree with you that it doesn't shine like some of the other trees in the enhancement pass. Staff builds got a TON of love with this pass and their trees give them massive bonuses that they didn't have before. A little of the brilliance that was poured into the Shiradi ED would certainly be welcome here for War Priest.

    I think dropping both the guards and making way for either a positive spell power boost and/or healing amp would be a lot more useful. Unless you're like me with a bow in hand, if you're going that deep into the tree you're planning to go face to face with mobs and could use a little extra in the healing department. 15 seconds on the smite for 1d2 per char level (roughly 103-241 with my 331 spell power) will be enough to keep you up in EH content, but you're still going to be struggling to stay alive in EE without some serious dodge/displace/incorporeal miss chance. The relatively low chance for stat damage and 3-12 light damage from the guards aren't going to matter at all. Having a mob hit you for 245 damage instead of 250 damage after he's hit you for thousands is not useful. Likewise, hitting that mob for 3-12 light damage when he's hitting you for 250 AND has 5-240k hp is insignificant and a waste of AP.

    I do like the idea of replacing the divine power from the top tier and adding the BAB portion of it to a core ability. I don't think this should be added to anything lower than the 6th or 12th level core ability though. Maybe have something that makes favored weapons do light damage like Celestia, X percent chance favored weapons do Y light damage based on our wis or cha (whichever is higher), or let's you use your wis mod for damage on faithful weapons as a replacement. It should be something that adds something NEW to the character that not everyone with 7 cleric levels or 8 favored soul levels already has.
    Member of Over Raided, level 100 Guild on Orien
    DPS: If it's not solving all your problems, you simply aren't using enough of it.

  9. #9
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Cackalacky
    Posts
    9,593

    Default

    I have no FVS anymore.

    But yes - I certainly DID cast DP while smacking on a mob. The more relevant question you should ask is if the light SP on this + it's melee capabilities are enough to make up the DPS difference from a pure caster who happened to take PA/cleave/great cleave and can also heal a raid group.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  10. #10
    Community Member DrunkDwarves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    123

    Default

    I believe DP has a hard cap of 15, so if you only went 11 Fvs/10 Cleric and went into Exalted Angel or just took 15 levels of Fvs/Cleric you're hitting that cap. All you have to do is slot your weapon with radiance and yes, you're doing as much damage as a full divine caster for this spell. DP isn't something you have to constantly spam and it's great damage per SP. This is amplified by the fact that if you're a melee Fvs you're getting shield of condemnation procs.

    If you take up to the 4th core ability you're getting pretty close to 1 light spell power per point. If you went for the capstone, you're getting close to .75 light spell power per point spent in the tree. This is not an insignificant increase in light spell power and I for one enjoy what it does to my divine wrath on top of the benefits to DP. It is certainly not useless. Even if you put melee weapons in your hand, you're still a divine class and are a hybrid character not completely divorced from your spell lineup. If all you wanted to do was hit things and not cast, I believe there are far better class choices than to try to milk uber physical DPS out of a hybrid tree.

    EDIT: For sure the fire spell power is 100% worthless. The only thing it increases is divine vessel and like people have stated on the forums already, you won't hit anything with any of the other fire spells. If light should be paired with anything, it should be healing spell power. Sorry Feather of Sun, but fire spell power really isn't a useful addition and yes, I did try out divine vessel until I realized it was 100% useless on a Silver Flame Fvs =(
    Last edited by DrunkDwarves; 09-15-2013 at 02:18 PM.
    Member of Over Raided, level 100 Guild on Orien
    DPS: If it's not solving all your problems, you simply aren't using enough of it.

  11. #11
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canada,Ontario, GTA
    Posts
    6,882

    Default

    I think splitting the sovereign host up to into its individual gods would do alot to make Warpriest more versatile...the devs wouldn't even have to make new abilities since they can all just use the sovereign host line


    Arawai: Morningstar
    Aureon: Quarterstaff
    Balinor: Battleaxe
    Dol Dorn: Longsword (replace the current SH longsword)
    Kol Korran: Heavy Mace
    Olladra: Sickle
    Onatar: Warhammer


    Unfortunately Boldrei and Dol Arrah use weapons that don't actually exist in DDO (Spear and Halberd) so I'd say leave them out for now although If the community is ok with it I think if we made Dol Arrah have favored weapon: Shield it could make for some interesting builds...as for Boldrei I'd say just have it cover w/e the first 2-Handed Piercing weapon we get is.

    Later (since it will take actual work) adding in more racial deities and mayybe another universal one...some examples:

    Dwarves: Moradin (Heavy Pick) - Moradin seem to have multiple favored weapons so I choose the one that isn't already covered by the sovereign host

    Halflings: Arvoreen (Short sword) or Brandobaris (Dagger/Throwing Dagger)...I prefer the latter but either would work, both is ok too :P

    Half-Orcs: Grummsh (Great Axe) - his favored weapon is the orcish double axe but the GA is the closest thing DDO has

    Universal: The Path of Light (Unarmed) - Clonks are popular may as well add an option for them and PoL is an Eberron "faith" so it could prove you guys haven't wholly abandoned it.


    Lastly with the advent of the Dark Disciple adding dark faiths would really help flesh out things like the Blood of Vol, The Dark Six (The Devourer,The Fury,The Keeper,The Mockery,The Shadow,The Traveler) and The cult of the dragon Below
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 10-02-2013 at 07:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    118

    Exclamation War Priest for Cleric with Divine Avenger for Fvs and Prot for All!

    Quote Originally Posted by dlsidhe View Post
    Not unless they give FvS freakin' Divine Avenger. Like we're supposed to have had since U9. That's 10 updates ago. *waits patiently*
    Especially since War Priest should be a Cleric only Tree. But while the wait is long, Divine Avenger should be FvS only. Protection should remain as a common tree as well.

  13. #13
    Community Member ilhares's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    The Frigid Wastes.
    Posts
    94

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    Especially since War Priest should be a Cleric only Tree. But while the wait is long, Divine Avenger should be FvS only. Protection should remain as a common tree as well.
    I don't take issue with that at all - but I do question the sense in giving Vulkoor shortsword proficiency. Unless I've missed it, only drow can choose Vulk, and don't all drow get shortsword proficency anyway? It seems like an utterly wasted 'bonus' for those who partake of his faith.

  14. #14
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canada,Ontario, GTA
    Posts
    6,882

    Default

    Random thought why CAN'T non-drow worship vulkoor (or other racial restricted gods). I mean I know 95% of Vulkoors followers are Drow but hey were adventurers were the exceptions. The fact that the devs made the Iconic Morninglord an Elf proves they might be open to this since the majority of Amauntor worshipers are Human or Aasimar
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload