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  1. #1
    Community Member Willan's Avatar
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    Default A Question to the Developers Regarding Ranger Devotion and the Lack of Paladin Option

    Before the enhancement update both Paladin and Ranger had the option for 80 devotion in their class enhancement trees with no requirements. After the update Paladins can only acquire devotion from the Sacred Defender tree and only as many points are spent. The Sacred Defender tree was changed to mostly only function with shields leaving DPS Paladins without any devotion. Now you are doing the same thing to Ranger by forcing most of the devotion into Core DWS abilities. On my melee Tempest ranger I do not have the points to spend in DWS period.

    If the change was made to keep 1 or 2 Ranger splash from having too many benefits then simply add devotion to the tier 3/4 Stat in each Ranger AND Paladin tree. This would mean that you would need to splash 3 or 4 levels of Paladin/Ranger and spend a minimum of 12 points in a tree to get 40 devotion with 22 points required for the full 80. Stating that the heal skill is there to make up the different in devotion is not plausible since Paladins are a 2 skill point per level class.
    Last edited by Willan; 09-13-2013 at 04:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    the more I look at the enhancements in general, the more I am boggled as to why there are no class trees. again devotion should fall under a class tree. prestige trees should be about boosting and specializing in that particular prestige and not lumping general class stuff into it.

  3. #3
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    We got Ghostbane because new players couldn't handle fighting undead. Having a Ranger tree, and the Ranger PrE trees would be so utterly confusing to new players, their brains might ooze out their ears.

    So we got two (three?) PrE trees and a racial tree instead.

  4. #4
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    With Ranger Devotion getting HAMMERED on Lam, going from 75 down to 20 for a 5 point investment I hope there is some sort of compensation. 1 Ranger had become a new capstone for some characters.

    I am not here to debate whether the +75 positive was right/wrong/too good/too crappy/loved Jesus/prayed facing Mecca/Voted Democrat/Voted Republican, or some other sort of nonsense.

    I am here to say that folks spent the points and invested in the Ranger Splash in good-faith; Through no fault of the consumer, Mechanics and Systems changes are now about to invalidate their efforts and leave those very same people who did nothing wrong holding the bag.

    The Development Team does get props for making a change early on in the process rather than waiting months/years (kind of like the last set of changes) but that does not mitigate the point that character decisions were made in good-faith with the information presented only to be greatly diminished by the currently proposed changes on the Test/Preview server.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    the more I look at the enhancements in general, the more I am boggled as to why there are no class trees. again devotion should fall under a class tree. prestige trees should be about boosting and specializing in that particular prestige and not lumping general class stuff into it.
    /signed.

    While I find the new enhancements interesting and have been getting lots of hours of fun out of playing around with them on new toons, all my older toons are languishing. My ranger/rogue had abilities under the old system which are now scattered across every one of the six class-enhancement trees he's eligible for, most of which have nothing to do with the PrEs they are now slotted under. I would have put them under a class tree too.

    I wouldn't say the game is now worse for the change; I don't have a problem with losing easy access to devotion on my Tempest as long as I'm gaining access to something else to make up for it. That's just a matter of having choices to make. But it's certainly much more different than I expected, so translating the old toons is proving difficult.
    Last edited by Arlannis; 09-13-2013 at 06:17 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    the more I look at the enhancements in general, the more I am boggled as to why there are no class trees. again devotion should fall under a class tree. prestige trees should be about boosting and specializing in that particular prestige and not lumping general class stuff into it.
    Yup this is one of the biggest mistake they did with the enhancement pass.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willan View Post
    Stating that the heal skill is there to make up the different in devotion is not plausible since Paladins are a 2 skill point per level class.
    Yeah, this is one of the problems that the game has developed as it slowly diverges more and more from the D&D 3rd rules. The skill points per level by class were based on a system where you only needed one person with Heal skill, where there was no Spellcraft skill, and so on. I think by now it might be appropriate to bump the lower-point classes up a bit. Nothing sacred about even numbers, either (2 could be bumped to 3; just because the PnP system gave people either 2, 4, 6 or 8 skill points doesn't matter anymore, at least that I can see).

  8. #8
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woebringer View Post
    With Ranger Devotion getting HAMMERED on Lam, going from 75 down to 20 for a 5 point investment I hope there is some sort of compensation. 1 Ranger had become a new capstone for some characters.

    I am not here to debate whether the +75 positive was right/wrong/too good/too crappy/loved Jesus/prayed facing Mecca/Voted Democrat/Voted Republican, or some other sort of nonsense.

    I am here to say that folks spent the points and invested in the Ranger Splash in good-faith; Through no fault of the consumer, Mechanics and Systems changes are now about to invalidate their efforts and leave those very same people who did nothing wrong holding the bag.

    The Development Team does get props for making a change early on in the process rather than waiting months/years (kind of like the last set of changes) but that does not mitigate the point that character decisions were made in good-faith with the information presented only to be greatly diminished by the currently proposed changes on the Test/Preview server.

    I 100% agree.

    With something like Beguile, it should have been corrected before it went live, but I wasn't all that frustrated to see it get nerfed, because I knew it was too good to be true and expected the change at some point.

    This, on the other hand, is different. Positive spell power is nice, but it's hardly game breaking. It's not worth tweaking it (well after it should have been tweaked) and forcing characters that splashed in a level of Ranger for the boost to positive spell power to LR. Yes, two free LR's was generous, but many people already used theirs. The Ranger positive spell power enhancements should be left as is.

  9. #9
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    An easy solution IMO would be to grant 1 positive sp for every point spent in any ranger or paladin tree. Then maybe tacking a small bonus to each of the capstones.

  10. #10
    Community Member thegreatneil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    An easy solution IMO would be to grant 1 positive sp for every point spent in any ranger or paladin tree. Then maybe tacking a small bonus to each of the capstones.
    Wouldn't that make abour 40 or so?
    not enough.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatneil View Post
    Wouldn't that make abour 40 or so?
    not enough.
    Last I looked every character eventually gets 80 APs, add 10-15 more for capstone and that allows a pure class to get 90-95, but likely it would be closer to the 80 we had before due to points spent in the racial tree. As for multi-class characters, I see no problem with less investment in those trees leading to less effect. This seems to scale better than most things in that regard actually.

  12. #12
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Last I looked every character eventually gets 80 APs, add 10-15 more for capstone and that allows a pure class to get 90-95, but likely it would be closer to the 80 we had before due to points spent in the racial tree. As for multi-class characters, I see no problem with less investment in those trees leading to less effect. This seems to scale better than most things in that regard actually.
    To me, this would make the most sense. Yes, with investment in Heal we would be stronger than we used to be, but that seems fair to me, since we'd be spending extra points, thus sacrificing some other skills to gain power. But to truly gain we would also need to equip another item, a Heal item for a healing boost. Which also makes sense. What doesn't make sense, to me, is that I have to spend as many points as I can in a tree that has minimal value, for my Paladin I managed to spend 33 pts in DoS tree (which was a stretch considering I never use a shield and pretty much gave up on AC a while back) and even if I had used to LR to gain Heal, I still would not equal what I had before without using a Gear slot. So even a LR and a gear slot did nothing but get me back to what I had before.

    Considering the fact that Paladins and Rangers also required Feats and Devotion items, it really doesn't seem like their healing needed a nerf. Of course, since the DoS PrE requires a shield for the HP boost I've lost about 150 + Hp, so I am easier to "heal up" so to speak. But even so, it does seem like a heck of a nerf when even with spending 30+ Action points in a tree, a LR to top up Heal skill and yet another gear piece needing to be swapped in, only gets me to what I had before for 10 AP.

  13. #13
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    My wolf druid requires a level of monk to get die step increases, and a level of ranger to self heal since wolf druids get 0 spell power. Seems sorta like something that could be improved on and that everyone mentioned in the Lam preview months ago. When this does change though I'm going to have essentially a dead ranger level adding bow strength to my wolf...and no way to get rid of it

    I think they wanted to make the hybrids less hybrid and more competitive dps-wise at the cost of healing. 1 ranger currently bypasses the cost of healing...so I can understand them wanting to change it. I did the math and the loss of a capstone, level of mana, and caster level made 1 ranger splash competitive but not really better than a pure 20 healer.

    I think the problem is that 1 ranger 2 monk 17 dps healer >>> any other possible combination, if you are already splashing to get dps added to a healer.

    It is sorta odd that my 1 ranger level adds 75 positive spell power (for 10 pts in all ranger trees) when 1 rangers can't even cast spells. My 2 monk splash adds 10 positive spell power and 5% HAMP, which is effectively 30 total positive spell power (for 16 total pts in monk tree), and also can't cast spells. My 33 points in the druid tree gives 0, and is a primary healing spell caster. My 21 points in the HELF racial tree gives 20% HAMP which is effectively 80 positive spell power. I will ultimately cast at around 300 positive spell power at lvl 25.

    So I average 7.5 positive spell power per point in ranger, ~2 positive spell power per point spent in monk, 0 per point spent in primary healer druid tree, and ~4 per point spent in racial tree.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 09-14-2013 at 02:28 AM.

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