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  1. #101
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    TL: DR: Teh_troll is right, all hail teh_troll. The pursuit of high AC is a waste of time.

  2. #102
    Community Member Levonestral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keveniaftw View Post
    I know what I'm talking about AND
    I'm not going to gimp my monk to make additional tests, I slotted ACout of him entirely because it didn't work on EE, at all
    I've done enough testing on it

    Now let it go
    Kev
    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for hearing evidence on either side of this topic, but perhaps I'm missing the proof in your screenshot?

    Here is a screenshot of a portion of the testing I did last night with 139AC. The screenshot shows me at 120, but that's after I let him kill me so I could take the shots. Remember, this test was with no incorporeal, no blur/displacement and a reduced dodge (13%) as an attempt to make the AC check as often as possible.

    It shows 6 misses, 5 dodges and 7 hits. The overall session was 52 swings resulting in 31 hits, 13 misses and 8 dodges.

    I'd still like think that AC is providing at least some mitigation, I could be wrong. I'm perfectly willing to accept some evidence otherwise, but so far I haven't seen anything provided yet though.

    Leader of The Madborn, Thelanis
    Searros, Kangaros, Xearos, Fearos, Tearos, Zenros, Rocknros, Rargasauros, Whilyros, Frostyros, Rosificer, Levonestral, Clankros, Stabbyros

  3. #103
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    On my Paladin tank, I have noticed a couple of things. I play my paladin almost exclusively (I do have a couple other level 25's) and over 7 years, I kind of know what he is good at and what he isn't.

    1. A monk can have similar AC, Saves, HP, etc and kill things a LOT faster. The only difference I have noticed is PPR.
    2. They can also have a LOT higher dodge
    3. In EE, while I can take a beating better than most, the ability to kill anything is laughable.


    I LOVE my paladin. But even I admit that AC isn't where it should be. I personally liked it better before when you worked at squeezing every last bit made a difference...I was able to solo VoD because of my AC. It made my character a lot more viable than it is now. The law of diminishing returns for AC has made it a LOT less appealing to people who used to use it. I know they wanted to make it viable for more people and builds....but what they did was they watered it down. There is almost no reason to go above about a 140 AC. For what you get in return, it just doesn't help.
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  4. #104
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    I LOVE my paladin. But even I admit that AC isn't where it should be. I personally liked it better before when you worked at squeezing every last bit made a difference...I was able to solo VoD because of my AC. It made my character a lot more viable than it is now. The law of diminishing returns for AC has made it a LOT less appealing to people who used to use it. I know they wanted to make it viable for more people and builds....but what they did was they watered it down. There is almost no reason to go above about a 140 AC. For what you get in return, it just doesn't help.
    agreed, I absolutely hate this new defensive system. It's now even more broken and exploitable than the good old days of monk-splash giving Wisdom Bonus to AC.

  5. #105
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    3. In EE, while I can take a beating better than most, the ability to kill anything is laughable.
    This is my biggest issue with "tank builds" right now . . . sure they can take a beating SLIGHTLY better but their DPS is so bad they're a waste of a party slot. For the damage output they give up their Defense needs to be tons better than it is right now.

  6. #106

    Default Oh joy

    So, as someone who has a "tank" who sits around 180+ AC, I find I must agree with my fellow greenskinned forumite teh_troll that AC is the lame duck of the defense pool. Those of you who don't think so well enjoy your "special" kool-aid running epic hard the not even 1/2 as difficult as epic elite version of DDO where every toon is a juggernaut of pure awesomesauce. In Epic elite especially in Raids is just not worth it raid bosses cut through AC like a Mario does an army of goomba's.

    I hope eventually AC become worthwhile again and Epic Elite doesn't continue it's path into becoming the ranged playground, and pajama's don't again rule all of stormreach.

    Bowserkoopa,

    Apparently bardchers have become tanks? what a whacky world this is .

    Keeper of Keenbean's Heart

  7. #107
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    Apparently bardchers have become tanks? what a whacky world this is .
    I was in that run, and yes it was amusing.

  8. #108
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    . . .and pajama's don't again rule all of stormreach.
    The pajama situation is worse now than it ever was when you could weasel out 6-10 points of AC from wisdom on a splash-build.

  9. #109
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    I hope eventually AC become worthwhile again and Epic Elite doesn't continue it's path . . .
    Another thing . . . AC not working in EE is the only thing preventing monks from being complete god-mode right now.

    DC 75 insta-kills, better PRR than heavy armor, improved evasion, 15% more incorporeal than other classes can gets, max-dodge pretty much for free . . . and imagine if AC actually worked?

    Turbine loves the Pay2win monks so much I'm actually surprised they haven't done this.

  10. #110
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Another thing . . . AC not working in EE is the only thing preventing monks from being complete god-mode right now.

    DC 75 insta-kills, better PRR than heavy armor, improved evasion, 15% more incorporeal than other classes can gets, max-dodge pretty much for free . . . and imagine if AC actually worked?

    Turbine loves the Pay2win monks so much I'm actually surprised they haven't done this.
    EE or not. The fact my Cloudburst-cleaving Monk 2 / Fighter 12 gets loads of that on heroic is too strong as well.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  11. #111
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    So, as someone who has a "tank" who sits around 180+ AC, I find I must agree with my fellow greenskinned forumite teh_troll that AC is the lame duck of the defense pool.
    Teh_Troll and I would not be trading posts in various threads if the debate were about AC being the lame duck of the defense pool.

    What I have tried to show, and I think the evidence is so overwhelming that it takes a special kind of person to ignore it, is that AC is the last thing checked when it comes to the four pieces that make up defenses. Because of its positioning it is perceived as least important because in pure numbers it often is the second or third reason for misses.

    First is dodge which everyone can see and everyone is on the bandwagon to get.

    Second is incorporeality but the percentage is low so it usually ends up as the smallest cause of misses.

    Third is concealment and this competes with armor class as the second most reason for misses.

    Fourth checked is armor class and because of its position, even when providing 30% defenses, in terms of numbers of misses it often is behind concealment.

    Now, the lame duck aspect of armor class owes its reputation to multiple causes.

    First is the challenge of getting AC into the 110+ range in order to have any real damage mitigation. Second is the position in the sequence resulting in low miss numbers overall. Third is the "culture" of DDO going back to before MotU when the community had given up on AC altogether -- except for monks and monk splashes.

    This culture is still expressed by posters like Teh_Troll who make ludicrous statements that AC makes no difference at all. Factually that is incorrect. He knows it, I know it, several other posters know it as well. But, that does not stop him from making posts like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    TL: DR: Teh_troll is right, all hail teh_troll. The pursuit of high AC is a waste of time.
    Now, perceptive readers will see the subtle shift in the postings as he has gone from claiming that AC does not matter to claiming that pursuing AC is a waste of time. And, since his post follows those about high AC/low PRR showing how even if hit less a character could be taking more damage I can see why he's trying to waffle in what he's been saying.

    But most importantly, he is waffling because the testing that he inspired -- remember that Teh_Troll is the reason why I finally accepted that the only good way to test was via video capture -- is graphically showing that he is incorrect about AC.

    In today's world there's no reason to admit to being wrong, just waffle a bit and pretend that your new position was what you had said all along.

    In stark contrast the discussion in this thread about auto misses. I was really set against them occurring and felt that data was supporting that. I could easily waffle that and say that I had meant that the data wasn't confirming auto misses yet so we had to keep an open mind. Then I could waffle that and say that I always knew there were auto misses....

    But, instead I just admit I'm wrong and move on. I take that information and I plug it in and I work with it. I give credit to those who tested and brought data to the conversation and to those who corrected my understanding of statistics. I don't pretend to like having been wrong, but I accept it.

    That applies in this discussion as well.

    The fact is that AC does matter even in eElite content. As I observed at other times, when people don't see the effect it is due to other factors. In the case of our photo evidence it is because of a very low PRR value -- not because the AC isn't mitigating damage. The truth is that without the 160 AC the photo character would die even sooner.

    These are things that we can know with certainty because of the testing that is being done. It is something that the video evidence will prove.

    But, most of all, if it were just a question about the lame duck condition of AC we would not be working at cross purposes.

  12. #112
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Another thing . . . AC not working in EE is the only thing preventing monks from being complete god-mode right now.

    DC 75 insta-kills, better PRR than heavy armor, improved evasion, 15% more incorporeal than other classes can gets, max-dodge pretty much for free . . . and imagine if AC actually worked?

    Turbine loves the Pay2win monks so much I'm actually surprised they haven't done this.
    Yet another post full of provocative rhetoric designed to incite reader rather than inform them.

    AC not working in EE is factually incorrect.

    [B]etter PRR than heavy armor is doubtful and, if I cared enough, probably easily shown to be factually incorrect.

    Turbine loves the Pay2win monks has no basis in fact and is pure opinion masquerading as a fact.

    And the entire tenor of the post is designed to support the thesis that AC is broken.

    I wish Teh_Troll would just be honest and say that he thinks the AC system is broken and then support his belief with substantive facts. But, he's a troll. He doesn't do any work, he goads others into doing the work and then he mocks and belittles them when their work shows his premises to be faulty.

    The fact is that AC works. It works in heroic content, it works in elite content -- even epic elite content. AC is not broken, at least the system itself is not broken. AC does work and if a character has a sufficient amount of AC it will cause fewer attacks to hit.

    That is a different matter than the tangent that I'm about to run off on -- in my own thread. The real contention of Teh_Troll is that AC doesn't work well enough. And, the subplot to that contention is that non-monk AC needs a boost.

    Turbine seems to be aware of this at one level. In the MotU discussions there is talk of raising the protection given by armor. The example given is heavy plate which normally gives 12 points of protection. Turbine introduced different levels of protection so that armor with higher minimum levels offered more protection.

    What Turbine doesn't seem to realize is that 12 points of protection is powerful in at level quests through all heroic content. But, even 27 points of protection has little impact when players start running elite, and especially epic elite, quests.

    For that plate armor to have value to a player it needs to have 50 or 60 points of protection and also have a dodge cap that is closer to 20 than it is to the 4 that full plate normally offers.

    It isn't changing the defense system but upgrading the armor so that it is effective in the higher level content that is needed.

    I really wish that Teh_Troll and others with similar viewpoints would just be honest about what the problems are. A revamp is not needed. The defense system does work. It is so freaking close to what is expected -- once you do the math and look at what you should be getting for results -- that we should not even need to debate about whether 160AC helps in eElite. It does, there is no disputing that it does.

    Instead we could be working together to identify practical ways, within the parameters of how the game works, to address the effectiveness of armor for non-monk splashes.

    But, posts like the one above that are full of falsehoods do not help. They are hindering because they polarize the readers and lead people to believe that there is no point in working towards useful AC values.

    Nothing could be further from the truth.

  13. #113
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    <stuff>
    You know nothing.

    Just follow the ways of teh_troll, I'm always looking for new minions. Agree with me and be right for a change, it'll make you feel all tingly inside.

  14. #114
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Another thing . . . when Koopa and the king of the Bardchers agrees on something it has to be true.

  15. #115
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Default Back on topic

    Earlier in the thread I took some data from others who shared their testing and calculated the attack bonus of the Cloven-Jaw Warlord in epic elite Cabal. That attack bonus is somewhere around 184.

    Using the formula provided by Turbine, I looked at my armor class to see how often I should expect to be hit. It turns out that at 112AC I should expect about 87% of the attacks to hit and about 13% of them to miss.

    Now, for the moment I am going to assume that it does not matter if the miss is an auto miss or not -- when talking the range of hits and misses the auto misses are going to be part of the 13% miss probability and the auto hits are going to be part of the 87% auto hit probability. If that is correct it explains why I don't need to preload bins with auto hits/misses -- because they are already going to be accounted for.

    Again, this is something that others will need to validate for me. We know I was wrong about auto misses in the overall discussion. But, I think it is alright to ignore auto misses because I think they are included in the miss percentage regardless.

    Another way of saying that is, if auto misses were separate then total miss chance would be 5% auto miss + 13% armor misses for 18% misses. OTOH, if they are included then what I have is 5% auto misses + 8% non-auto misses = 13% total miss chances.

    BTW, I wonder how close that 13% miss chance is. Have to go back to the eElite Cabal video and see.

  16. #116
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You know nothing.
    You keep saying that, but it doesn't mean what you think it does.

  17. #117

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    If I'm not too distracted from my birthday and picking up Grand Theft Auto V this week I will go into some EE's on my tank and check again but I've had this character for a long time it is/was my main character and I can say in the content that I run my AC seems like paper versus Epic Elite raid bosses or really any "boss" character in at level content on Epic Elite. In Epic Hard I feel like Mario running around with star power that never ends. As for hard evidence I could "video" it or grab my combat log (hey turbine how about a combat log exporting tool?) but generally what I see is HIT, HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,miss, HIT, HIT...... and currently do to some gear snafu and me needing to regear I don't wear a perma blur item and I need to redo my feats to get more dodge (8% is not enough) so for me AC is my main defense and in Epic elite it just doesn't feel as if it's doing anything but stopping 5% of attacks.

    If I ever get back into the swing of things I may try to get this character back to my main but currently without the saves from being a Paly I feel like with the changes to Stalwart Defender while I've gained 10-20 AC the loss of PRR and my lower dodge cap and the DPS being sub-par that he's not the character he used to be.

    I feel like we need something else like dodge added like deflection or something that fits the flavor of being heavily armored "tanks" don't generally "dodge" things they let their armor take the abuse.

    Bowserkoopa,

    New in super mario brothers 22 Bowser is now a skinny pajama wearing lizard like thing called a kobold that hops around to avoid attacks

    Keeper of Keenbean's Heart

  18. #118
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    II can say in the content that I run my AC seems like paper versus Epic Elite raid bosses or really any "boss" character in at level content on Epic Elite.
    Ah, context!

    You know, it could be that against raid bosses you are not seeing much value from your AC. I can see that.

    What happens if you run over to eElite Cabal and take on the first Cloven-Jaw Warlord? That is a CR61 monster and if the calculations are right and its attack bonus is roughly 184 then you should be expecting to get hit roughly 53% of the time and missed roughly 47% of the time.

    I don't know your other defense values so I can't get closer than that. But, I would predict that less than half of that monster's attacks are actually hitting you if your AC is in the 180 range.

    Now, does that mean your AC is of much help against a raid boss? Probably not. The scaling of hit bonus with increase in CR is a mystery to me. For a CR62 monster it looks to be about 3 times the CR rating. I don't know if that is a good enough heuristic to apply it to other mobs.

    Still, not good enough for epic elite raid bosses is a far cry from useless in epic elite.

  19. #119
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Still, not good enough for epic elite raid bosses is a far cry from useless in epic elite.
    No it's not, but you're getting closer to right thinking. Soon you'll have the epiphany that "teh_troll is right, all hail teh_troll."

    Trash doesn't hit back when it's helpless. Make it helpless and it can't hurt you. That's all the "AC" you need for EE.

    Where AC could have real value is against bosses. It doesn't.

  20. #120
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No it's not, but you're getting closer to right thinking. Soon you'll have the epiphany that "teh_troll is right, all hail teh_troll."

    Trash doesn't hit back when it's helpless. Make it helpless and it can't hurt you. That's all the "AC" you need for EE.

    Where AC could have real value is against bosses. It doesn't.
    I see you are shifting your stance again. It would be funny if it were not so sad.

    First it was AC does not matter.

    Then it was pursuit of AC is a waste of time.

    Now it is that the only AC you need is to make trash helpless.

    Soon it will be, "Therigar is right, that's what I've always been saying, see, Therigar agrees with me, all hail...."

    Pathetic really.

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