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  1. #141
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    If you are making a build, you can go in two basic directions: Tank or Killer.
    Eventually all of these discussions come around to someone posting this type of a statement.

    It isn't really true, but it is said nonetheless.

    It is a problematic statement because it presumes that the two are polar opposites and that there is no other choice.

    Oddly, the place where this first began to be discussed and that led to this thread and my testing was one where the OP wanted a tank build....

  2. #142
    Community Member MrWindupBird's Avatar
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    This thread has indeed been an education.

  3. #143
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Or a troll, both are acceptable.
    What racial bonus(es) do trolls get?

    Also, are they f2p or what? I haven't been able to select it

  4. #144
    Community Member Book_O_Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesarjblack View Post
    I did some testing awhile back (when citw was still the only "endgame" raid is the most accurate time estimate I've got) on the order in which incoming attacks checked defenses. Dodge is checked first, AC is checked last, incorp and concealment are checked in between but couldn't determine the which was checked first, even after 1000 hits. I'll have to do another batch of numbers over the next few days to provide evidence, though, as I can't seem to find the notebook that data is in.

    I logged about 550 attacks from the two melee hobgoblins in the start of EE cabal. I'm old fashioned and that data is written down in a notebook, rather then plugged into an excel file. Since this is just preliminary data, and I'm ultimately doing this to satisfy my own curiosity, I'm not spending the effort to screenshot everything or take a bunch of videos. If you don't want to believe me, then that's fine by me. Here's the data:

    181 AC, 10% incorp, 11% dodge, no concealment.
    126 attacks from the clovenjaw warlord. 13 incorporeals, 15 dodges, 48 misses, 50 hits.
    436 attacks from the clovenjaw veteran. 43 incorporeals, 51 dodges, 166 misses, 176 hits.


    Seems fairly obvious that AC is working to some extent. If we assume AC is checked last, we're talking just shy of a 50% miss chance. If it were checked first, it becomes ~40% miss chance (but dodge and incorp numbers support AC being checked last). Either way, it's more then enough to rule out missing just on a 1.

    Assuming AC is checked last suggests a to-hit of ~170 in both cases, but I won't trust that number until I gather data at other AC values to see if it matches up, as I don't trust turbines to hit formula (said formula is posted on the wiki page for armor class, if people don't remember it).

    I'll be sharing a bunch more numbers in a couple of weeks, once I've had enough time to gather enough data to satisfy me.
    This post seems to have been overlooked. It shows that AC is doing something and 181 AC is close to a 50% miss chance against these enemies. His analysis shows that it is possible to get a worthwhile AC for EE.

    @Therigar The 5% automatic hits and misses should be taken as extreme cases in to-hit ratios. They are not a separate roll but a limit to how far accuracy can swing, taken as part of the regular roll vs. AC. Remember automatic hits and misses for PCs are on out d20 roll not some other roll.
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  5. #145
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book_O_Dragons View Post
    @Therigar The 5% automatic hits and misses should be taken as extreme cases in to-hit ratios. They are not a separate roll but a limit to how far accuracy can swing, taken as part of the regular roll vs. AC. Remember automatic hits and misses for PCs are on out d20 roll not some other roll.
    That is what I eventually figured out. It explains why my sampling adds up without needing to pre-fill bins and how I came to the conclusion that auto hits/misses were not happening. Thanks for confirming that for me.

    BTW, nice signature.

  6. #146
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Just a fast update. I had expected to have a character to L20 to serve as perma-cleric to my monk for the remaining tests.

    Unfortunately, real life is intervening and I'm not there yet.

    I have not forgotten the project but I am delayed.

  7. #147
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Default Grumble, grumble

    So, it turns out that after leveling to gain access to epic quests that I still cannot enter eElite Cabal with my cleric.

    I think it is because of the changes done to prevent characters from entering over-level quests. At L20 I can only access the quest on eNormal -- and being grouped with a higher character or completing on eNormal does not open the quest on higher difficulties.

    When I try to enter after the quest is started on eElite the cleric simply bounces -- never even gets into the quest at all.

    So, this project just went on indefinite hold.


  8. #148
    Community Member Book_O_Dragons's Avatar
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    I can help you on lamania if you want. I'll copy Draconomicon over if you want.
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  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    What racial bonus(es) do trolls get?

    Also, are they f2p or what? I haven't been able to select it
    You need at least 809 bans, a scroll of alignment change, and then you need to complete both "Hold for Reinforcements" and "Gladewatch Outpost Defense" After they are complete you must let Coyle and Teresa die by going invisible and letting the other mobs gank them. Then there will be an optional chest of a "Trollerofic heart of wood."

    They get +8 str, +6 con, +4 dex, -4 int, -2 wis - 2 cha and stacking regeneration.

  10. #150
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    You need at least 809 bans, a scroll of alignment change, and then you need to complete both "Hold for Reinforcements" and "Gladewatch Outpost Defense" After they are complete you must let Coyle and Teresa die by going invisible and letting the other mobs gank them. Then there will be an optional chest of a "Trollerofic heart of wood."

    They get +8 str, +6 con, +4 dex, -4 int, -2 wis - 2 cha and stacking regeneration.
    I'm only at 50 bans :\

    Also, you seem to confuse me with someone else. I run both.
    Each life. The pain is immense.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    I'm only at 50 bans :\

    Also, you seem to confuse me with someone else. I run both.
    Each life. The pain is immense.
    You need the bans first, then the alignment change, THEN the quests. And are you making sure to watch the idiots die painfully?

  12. #152
    Community Member Book_O_Dragons's Avatar
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    Therigar told me that he had some plans for dual-boxing on lamania for these tests.
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  13. #153

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    I would be keen to see this work continue...

  14. #154
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Wink

    Did anyone see the thread title and think........hmmm this would make a great title for a guide book for aspiring politicians?

  15. #155
    Community Member Mahalko128's Avatar
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    All I want to say is Therigar, you're my DDO hero. You've given me new hope where once there was none. Oh, and about Teh, I stopped reading any messages he writes a month ago, and skip any message with that picture of his on it. I know it's been a little while since you were on here, but you did something good with this thread. You really did.

  16. #156
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    I appreaciate the effort you put into this, since such tests can easily reveal if things are actually working ingame as we would expect them to.

    But why would you want to find out the order in which the 4 layers are checked? Shouldn't matter at all.
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  17. #157
    Community Member Book_O_Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    I appreaciate the effort you put into this, since such tests can easily reveal if things are actually working ingame as we would expect them to.

    But why would you want to find out the order in which the 4 layers are checked? Shouldn't matter at all.
    It doesn't matter but if we can provide evidence that AC can matter we have an argument against people who say it doesn't.
    This is a matter of progressing in the old argument about whether or not AC matters and backwards engineering the game from in-game testing. I have heard of someone being banned for posting data taken from the game code that we store on our computers.
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  18. #158
    Community Member -Avalon-'s Avatar
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    A few problems here...

    Basic mathematical dilemma: While on paper and in theory, percentages and statistics do indeed give pure factual results, in practice, it can differ highly. Flip a coin, there are 2 sides, so technically a 50/50 chance of either side. Flip it once, and we have a result of 100% One-Side, flip twice, odds are that you will get the other side and support the 50/50, thus proving the theory... but those were the key words, "Odds Are"... because it COULD be the same side, thus 2 flips and 100% still... flip a third time, get higher odds of a different result, but still giving a best result of 2/3 and 1/3, not 1/2... Even after 200 flips, your results could very well be 130 and 70... all depending on blind luck. To truly test, we need thousands of flips to see what the actual odds are, and even then, there are tons of tiny details that will affect the results (IE metal density and thickness, force of flip, marks/scratches on one side or the other, etc) that wouldn't really affect 1-10 flips, but over a large enough sample, could modify the result 10% or more for each detail one way or the other...

    In a video game, we 'think' those things don't count, but the computer random number generators are not based on YOU alone, it is based on the entire system. So, where one person succeeds on 50/50, you may fail because the whole of the system is trying to balance the percentages out over all and for you personally... pretty complicated, but it does it easily. Also, no number is pure on your %'s... you see 24%, but in reality is may be 24.93%... take a look when you load up a character and use wraith form, it says it modifies your miss chance by something like 100.030% or some odd thing. A lot of your stuff is compound amounts, and when you start multiplying across you get decimals...

    Also, just from a D&D purist standpoint (and logic to boot) I tend to think the order is going to be Dodge, then Armor Class, then Concealment, then Incorporeality. Reason: The enemy attacks you, first figure out if you were even standing in the spot where he attacked (dodge), if you are, then see if he connected with your physical silhouette (armor class), if so, then check to see if that was really you or just an image (concealment), then check to see if you were even in the right plane of existence at that exact moment in time (incorp)... Part of Blur/Wraith is that the AC has to fail FIRST before it is checked, because if the enemy swings at you, and misses you by a meter, why check to see if you were not there when the swing missed?

    But honestly, we need a much larger number of attacks to gauge whether %'s are holding the right numbers. On the original post, we were given the following info:

    dodge was 23%
    armor class of 114 gave 67% at level protection
    concealment was 10%
    incorporeality was 10%
    107 (total) attacks from 5 different monsters.


    number of hits recorded was 22

    The actual number of misses for each of them was 24 dodge, 14 blur, 8 incorporeal and 39 armor class. A straight conversion based on the defensive percentage would lead me to expect 24 dodge, 10 blur, 10 incorporeal and 71 armor class misses. The only one of these that lines up well with the actual results is dodge.

    But, there is a problem with the math here... Yes, 107 * .23 = 24.61, but 107 * .67 = 71.69 (which adds up to AC as well as dodge!), but it doesn't stop there! 107 * .1 = 10.7 which matches up fairly well given small sampling for the incorp and conceal... so, how are we to say that any one of these adds up better?

    My theory, is that the system uses a complex % of combined defenses, and that compound is based on %'s for each defense. Seems the easiest, and most lag-free method. You have those numbers above, which give you a group total of 20.5821% chance to be missed. 107 * 20.5821 = 22.022847 hits (which lines up), if you are missed, then based on your %'s:

    dodge was 23%
    armor class of 114 gave 67% at level protection
    concealment was 10%
    incorporeality was 10%

    You should have 100% broken down into roughly 61% AC, 21% dodge, 9% incorp and conceal. 85 misses, so 52 from AC, 18 from Dodge, 7 or 8 from each of the others. Which calculates out correctly, and then the servers don't have to figure out 4 different defenses each and every time anyone is attacked... think of how many more calculations would be required if it worked that way? I think they switched to a % system, because then they COULD use all the different defenses, give a combined total defense, and then save on a LOT of issues.
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  19. #159
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    OMG . . . it multiplicative math . . . the order DOESN'T MATTER.

  20. #160
    Community Member -Avalon-'s Avatar
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    And just a little something else to think about (not replying to 'teh troll' just an add-on)... I remember them saying something back when they did the whole AC/PRR/Dodge update, that enemies wouldn't be using d20 to hit, they use a different system than players use. So, 5% auto-hit/miss doesn't happen for them...
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