Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst ... 345678910 LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 195
  1. #121
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    My stance is simple . . .

    I'm right.

    You're not.

    Agree with me if you wanna be right.

    Pretty much covers every issue.

  2. #122
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,792

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No it's not, but you're getting closer to right thinking. Soon you'll have the epiphany that "teh_troll is right, all hail teh_troll."

    Trash doesn't hit back when it's helpless. Make it helpless and it can't hurt you. That's all the "AC" you need for EE.

    Where AC could have real value is against bosses. It doesn't.
    Can you actually make a helpful post with actual evidence. Since as you admitted rerolled your tank and have no ac toons guess that would,not be possible.

    What I have seen is not a lack of knowledge from people arguing against, but more it is a lack of perception as Therigar has pointed out. I helped run Levonestral's tests (not the biggest sampling but not a bad one either) and have plenty of experience tanking and with AC toons.

    The character Lev used in the tests has tanked and held EE FOT. He is able with slight healing from a healer to stand up easily in it.(he has great self-healing cocoon/LOH)

    His AC seemed to help there along with his saves and other contributors to his defense. AC isn't the #1 defense on a character and keeping them alive there is the whole that people are not seeing.

    As has been shown with the order of the checks it is the perception of not seeing a lot of misses that is making people believe it is useless. When in fact it helps more than people realize.

    As far as bosses I have seen him tank EE FOT and succeed that is just perception on my part which ac may not of been a factor. Need actually logs to figure if viable against bosses. Without actually to hit numbers or formula for it it is near impossible without actually doing it and recording it to find out. So blanket statements saying it don't are not valid and just as your name says trolling.
    Proud Officer of The Madborn

  3. #123

    Default I can try that

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Ah, context!

    You know, it could be that against raid bosses you are not seeing much value from your AC. I can see that.

    What happens if you run over to eElite Cabal and take on the first Cloven-Jaw Warlord? That is a CR61 monster and if the calculations are right and its attack bonus is roughly 184 then you should be expecting to get hit roughly 53% of the time and missed roughly 47% of the time.

    I don't know your other defense values so I can't get closer than that. But, I would predict that less than half of that monster's attacks are actually hitting you if your AC is in the 180 range.

    Now, does that mean your AC is of much help against a raid boss? Probably not. The scaling of hit bonus with increase in CR is a mystery to me. For a CR62 monster it looks to be about 3 times the CR rating. I don't know if that is a good enough heuristic to apply it to other mobs.

    Still, not good enough for epic elite raid bosses is a far cry from useless in epic elite.
    I can try that although really I don't think the mobs in Cabal are really all that impressive to start with. But in my personal opinion the place where defenses are really measured are against the mobs that really need tanking. Bosses and things that hit hard or often enough to kill other party members who are not defensively orientated.

    I am glad I have provided some context as to where AC is often measured to me. And some of the new quests have enough trash that hits enough to maybe need a tank but with the rise of ranged and the ability to make mobs "helpless" really ac tanking trash doesn't seem to occur in groups I run.

    The place AC tanks formally shined the most was against a "boss" where only having to heal 1 target was easier than healing the entire party as it attacked generally with cleave like effects hitting everyone. This was where tanks shined and mine does not shine in that role any longer. If I were to go pure I could probably break 200 AC and might after I fix my gear to +10 items and find a +10 natural armor item. You can see my toon on Ghallanda on YOURDDO here http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/ghallanda/Bowserkoopa/ Or when I get home if I play I might take some screenshots.

    Regardless in my personal opinion AC is not as strong as it should be in the situation where I feel tanks are really needed and that is tanking bosses.

    Bowserkoopa,

    Evil koopa overlord seeking pajama's for battling dracoliches and storm giants
    Last edited by Vyrtigo; 09-16-2013 at 04:33 PM. Reason: tendency to make run on sentences, partialy corrected

    Keeper of Keenbean's Heart

  4. #124
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    So blanket statements saying it don't are not valid.
    Yes they are.

    He is wrong.

  5. #125
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,000

    Default

    Waaayyeelllll.....


    First, I would point out that TT is a troll. Asking trolls to not troll threads is like asking a dog not to hump (or me not to in my sleep..sorry hon).

    Second, I'd say that since we cant get a real to hit formula it is near impossible to know one way or the other. So on this one Troll is pretty much as right as any one else.

    I'm firmly in the AC is not worth the investment camp as I've run both ways and (without testing) found that it was sub par to my dodge/displace builds. But to each his own of course
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
    Highlanders Cannith - Kalimah, Calimah, Rustymonster, Kraps, Nepheli, Wurshuper

  6. #126
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,866

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post

    Still, not good enough for epic elite raid bosses is a far cry from useless in epic elite.
    No, unfortunately, for the most part you are still wrong. While AC is not completely useless in EE against trash, it is next-to-useless, compared to the alternatives.

    If you don't mind playing rather slowly, then it can have some value, but in most of the game, the most value of AC is the maximum you can get before you start to cut into your dps. Because of the diminishing returns, raising your AC to miss 10%-20% more generally means lowering your dps far more than 10%-20%, it can even cut your dps in half, depending on build.

    Thus killing the mobs faster, incapacitating them, and healing damage taken is more effective; in EE it's more effective by a long shot.

    I have a Paladin who can easily hit 120 and theoretically far more, but I don't bother. I've run the same tests you have in a way, but not to see which order and how much is actually mitigated, but instead I've run the same quests going all-out dps with only the "lowest hanging fruit" of AC, maybe 10% mitigation, and all-out defense with a shield equipped and pushing as much dps as I could (mind you I'm not build for shield mode- but even if I had all the Shield Mastery and Shield Bashing Feats what would I eke out; 10% more damage) and there was no comparison; all-out dps won hands down.

    Healing through the damage and killing faster completely outshone high AC defensive fighting. I got rid of all but the lowest hanging fruit that didn't interfere with dps and I can still hit a 110+ AC depending on buffs. Just for the heck of it I checked my AC with a shield which roughly cuts my dps in half and did a few fast and simple buffs and got my AC to 108; "At Level" that's a 64% miss chance. I dropped the shield and got a 93 AC; "At Level" that's a 58% miss chance. At the cost of roughly half my dps I gained 6% miss chance "At Level". Even the PRR only went up roughly 5%. Due to the formulas on both AC and PRR, as the numbers get bigger the differences get smaller.

    So yes, the formula works as you'd expect it to. However, the bosses do "cheat", especially Raid Bosses, this has been common knowledge for a very long time, thus making high AC even less valuable in the Boss Fights. So while AC "works" the truth is that it doesn't work well enough to truly bother with compared to other factors. The best mitigation are effects that debilitate and incapacitate the mobs and it's hard to see AC do more than 10-20%, putting it about equal to Blurry and higher than Ghostly, but generally inferior to dodge, depending on gear and build. Getting that much AC mitigation is rather easy nowadays, but in a lot of EE content it will still drop down to basically 5%, especially against bosses. Even against general mobs, it's very easy to get flanked which lowers AC as well.

    For the most part anyway, AC in EE, is nigh-useless, as far as going for any more at the expense of dps or other mitigating effects. Getting that AC past the 5% point only matters if you don't start to drop your dps past 5%, and it's usually more of a sacrifice than that.

    Which isn't to say that there aren't high AC characters that can solo Epics. But for the most part, in groups, they don't contribute as much. Of course that all depends on the groups and the players.

    But I do agree that you've made some interesting tests that I'm sure have helped some people understand the different mitigating factors in DDO a bit better. For the most part, you've illustrated what I already thought about the system, as I've always looked at the factors together to give myself an idea of what my "defenses" are. There's an app you can download that you can just plug in the different values of AC, blur, Ghostly, Dodge, and PRR against different CRs and get a decent idea of your overall mitigation. I'll try to find where I downloaded it from and post it here.

    +1 for the testing you've done.

  7. #127
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,957

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Ah, context!

    You know, it could be that against raid bosses you are not seeing much value from your AC. I can see that.

    What happens if you run over to eElite Cabal and take on the first Cloven-Jaw Warlord? That is a CR61 monster and if the calculations are right and its attack bonus is roughly 184 then you should be expecting to get hit roughly 53% of the time and missed roughly 47% of the time.

    I don't know your other defense values so I can't get closer than that. But, I would predict that less than half of that monster's attacks are actually hitting you if your AC is in the 180 range.

    Now, does that mean your AC is of much help against a raid boss? Probably not. The scaling of hit bonus with increase in CR is a mystery to me. For a CR62 monster it looks to be about 3 times the CR rating. I don't know if that is a good enough heuristic to apply it to other mobs.

    Still, not good enough for epic elite raid bosses is a far cry from useless in epic elite.
    Not to be a jerk here, but you've basically proved his point.

    If you are making a build, you can go in two basic directions: Tank or Killer. One is heavily defensive, the other heavily offensive. If you go defense, you basically kill offense as you cannot have both. So if I make the investment in heavy AC and PRR, I WILL lose DPS.

    And as you've just pointed out, CR 61 Trash hitting you about 1/2 of the time (taking PRR, displacement, and so on out of the picture), with each hit being roughly 250 - 350 HP, means that a tank is going to go down in about 8 - 12 swings. That's pathetic.

    With a decent PRR that means maybe 12 - 18 swings. Again, that's 1 encounter with trash mobs, and assuming the casters have uber DPS. You're dead on your first or second encounter.

    If you don't get hit, you don't take damage - period. That means Dodge, blur / displacement / incorp, and melee CC win the comparison hands-down. Because you're getting hit 0 times out of 100.

  8. #128
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    Asking trolls to not troll threads is like asking a dog not to hump (or me not to in my sleep..sorry hon).
    If only we could buy more signature space in the DDO store.

  9. #129
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,792

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    Regardless in my personal opinion AC is not as strong as it should be in the situation where I feel tanks are really needed and that is tanking bosses.
    That I agree with it isn't as strong as it should be, but useless, AC is not as some like to claim in this thread without proof.

    If AC is your only defense as a tank then you are doing it wrong. Tanking requires a lot more than that. PRR/Dodge/Concealment/AC. Yes PRR and dodge are the highest on list where AC may be lowest but the more you get the better off you are (to a certain point where diminishing returns kick in and start hurting character with losses elsewhere for more AC)..

    Wish we had the formula for the to hit then someone with a high math IQ (not me suck at math) could take the numbers and we could actually see what can do against certain mobs and what actual threshold is for AC to be effective against bosses.
    Proud Officer of The Madborn

  10. #130
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    If you don't mind playing rather slowly, then it can have some value, but in most of the game, the most value of AC is the maximum you can get before you start to cut into your dps. Because of the diminishing returns, raising your AC to miss 10%-20% more generally means lowering your dps far more than 10%-20%, it can even cut your dps in half, depending on build.
    And this is the kicker . . . the only addition defense you're gonna get out of said tank build is AC . . . which is worthless.

    I've recently seen a 28% dodge, 25% incorporeal, 107 PRR FURY OF THE WILD DPS build posted on another forum. Makes all tanks laughable.

    Seriously, that 5% miss feat is better than an AC investment at this point.

  11. #131
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Cackalacky
    Posts
    9,593

    Default

    There's some good starting points for research here - but it's subject to the elephant-parable in that it is means whatever the person observing it wants it to mean from whatever angle they are viewing. It isn't like the other thread didn't offer context either, or already discuss the topic if "if it is worth the effort" - that isn't some clever redefinement of the present.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  12. #132

    Default Just to say this

    While I am not currently running a perma blur item I do generally get blur from someone (yes some casters still have this buff), short of me redoing my feats for some mithral fluidity I'm not sure what I'm going to do to get more dodge in my build.

    I might go onto Lamma land and LR and see if I can figure out the balance. As for PRR I generally sit on 118PRR and I am wearing "light" armor for evasion. I know i could get more if I went heavy but evasion is not something I have decided I can't live without. After the gear changes I am thinking I may end up with the same AC and gain some PRR but I am not sure.

    Bowserkoopa,

    Turbine why can't we just leave Lammaland up with lesser hearts of all variety's on sale for 1 point each all the time for those of us who like to test builds?

    Keeper of Keenbean's Heart

  13. #133
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    While I am not currently running a perma blur item I do generally get blur from someone (yes some casters still have this buff), short of me redoing my feats for some mithral fluidity I'm not sure what I'm going to do to get more dodge in my build.
    TR into a human :P

    Or a troll, both are acceptable.

  14. #134
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,866

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    And this is the kicker . . . the only addition defense you're gonna get out of said tank build is AC . . . which is worthless.

    I've recently seen a 28% dodge, 25% incorporeal, 107 PRR FURY OF THE WILD DPS build posted on another forum. Makes all tanks laughable.

    Seriously, that 5% miss feat is better than an AC investment at this point.
    Yes, for the most part AC comes out to 5% mitigation in EE, especially bosses, so "armor" is about the secondary effects, because otherwise you could be naked and still have the same 5% mitigation.

    The only time AC past that 5% is really worth it is if it doesn't start to cut into dps more than an equal amount. And even at a 1 to 1 ratio dps is still better because just getting flanked lowers AC. I mean for most Fighter and Paladin builds getting to 100 AC is really rather easy, but only worth it as an after-thought as long as it requires little-to-no sacrifice. Even in EN and EH, it's just mostly more efficient to just ignore AC beyond the minimal and concentrate on killing. And with the huge bloated hp of EE mobs, it just drove me crazy trying to fight them defensively. Yes, in practice, I took less damage even though it took a lot longer to kill them, but it drove me crazy killing them at that slow a rate. It was far more satisfying to just heal through the damage and kill them more than twice as fast. Unless you're really, really worried about resource usage, it just isn't worth the bother, in my opinion. With most melee having decent healing nowadays, it just doesn't seem to make too much sense to sweat AC that much.

  15. #135
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,957

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    While I am not currently running a perma blur item I do generally get blur from someone (yes some casters still have this buff), short of me redoing my feats for some mithral fluidity I'm not sure what I'm going to do to get more dodge in my build.
    Dodge docents drop like candy in epic content. Of course, they all have Ghostbane as an attribute, but then again so does everything else...

  16. #136
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,792

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    There's some good starting points for research here - but it's subject to the elephant-parable in that it is means whatever the person observing it wants it to mean from whatever angle they are viewing. It isn't like the other thread didn't offer context either, or already discuss the topic if "if it is worth the effort" - that isn't some clever redefinement of the present.
    This I totally agree with. It is all in how the person views the data and such and how they interpret it that will define how they see it.

    Like me I don't see it as worthless. Am I wrong NO. Am I right IMO I am. To others who view it differently and have different perspectives and styles I ma wrong. They have a right to there OP as I do.

    In this argument I see the points of both sides and it is all playstyles that make the perceptions and beliefs.

    We can argue to we are blue in the face, but without actually formulas and monsters to hits it is impossible to prove either way.

    Even though it has been shown it isn't worthless and does mitigate damage at what point is it worthless or is it ever worthless against bosses we don't have the numbers at this point to say yea or nay it is all perception.
    Proud Officer of The Madborn

  17. #137
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,957

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I've recently seen a 28% dodge, 25% incorporeal, 107 PRR FURY OF THE WILD DPS build posted on another forum. Makes all tanks laughable.
    Is that 107 PRR overall, or just from Fury of the Wild?

  18. #138
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Is that 107 PRR overall, or just from Fury of the Wild?
    Overall - just pointing out that is was in a full on offensive ED.

  19. #139

    Default Yeah....

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Dodge docents drop like candy in epic content. Of course, they all have Ghostbane as an attribute, but then again so does everything else...
    It's not that I can't find sources, it's my current max dex cap. Which fell quite a bit with the changing of Stalwart defender, I used to site around 12-15 i think but now I'm stuck at 8%. And the only way I am going to increase it is to go with Mithral Fluidity or work daggertooths belt into my build.

    As for going Human I have always realized that "human" would be better in terms of healing but I enjoy my Koopa (Warforged) toons and will not change him into a non koopa. I may however someday run 3 play past lives for the healing amp.

    That being said my thought around it being "useless" is that my dps suffers regardless of what I have come up with so far to be a tank and maintain the AC I have, and that AC seems to be non effective versus bosses and raid bosses.

    Bowserkoopa,

    Keeper of Keenbean's Heart

  20. #140
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Monroe, New York, USA
    Posts
    1,573
    Cully Clonk, Culpepper Cleric, Culpeppa PvP spec Cleric, Azygoz Clogue
    Coyle evoker FvS, Ungoliant, Assassin, Angainor, WF Lord of Blades FvS
    Mellkor Wizard, Ferrari WF Sorc, ***Argonnessen*** ~~Ascent~~

Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst ... 345678910 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload