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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Its a PVE game, not PVP.
    The amount of 100 life toons will be very, very rare.
    The amount of single/several life toons will be very, very common.
    The masses will ensure balance.

    The old epic system stunk with single difficulty and epic ward.


    End game will stabilize in due time under the current system.
    If we don't create a proper reincarnation system we will end up with 100 level characters,
    and then where will the loot and raids be?
    Not to sound rude, but I would really ask if you are new here?

    If you have spent any time at any of the level caps throughout the game the Devs have always raised character potential and then pushed the DCs/Saves/Etc towards the max obtainable. I am hoping that trend does not repeat itself here. But saying masses will equal it out is just saying that devs will ignore the power creep leading to players mostly getting bored with those occasional players logging on with their "I Win" button leaving everyone else in the middle or worse.

    I like having a powerful character as well. I don't want the amount of time I have to spend playing an MMO disrupt the balance for everyone else though.
    Git off mah lawn!

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  2. #282

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    I do agree with you DOUBLE stacking with different past life feats is not good.

    I do agree with you about the Devs need to be creative with their past lives.

    I do not agree with anyone who wants to push reincarnation in a corner and tell the Devs to make it shallow and poor.
    This is very unwise.

    Will these people loot all the new toys in the end game and leave?
    Likely.

  3. #283

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    Big changes happened when epic causual, epic normal, epic hard, epic elite were introduced.

    Players without maximum bonuses do well in some difficulties of this content right now.
    These same players faced complete blockout of instant kill and other spells under level 20 old epic wards.

    That is quite a difference indeed.

    I do hope nobody thinks a first life toon should be entitled to breeze thru elite epic content?

  4. #284
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    If we don't create a proper reincarnation system we will end up with 100 level characters,
    and then where will the loot and raids be?
    You bring up a good point, but I don't see a "proper reinc system" as the solution. Endlessly replaying the same content to arrive at the same level 30 cap is not appealing.

    No, what needs to happen, and has needed to happen since Cap20, is a real endgame solution. And that doesn't mean more raids. It means more reason to stay at cap. It means adding new and interesting endgame play options, like Skirmishes, Sieges, persistent instance massively multiplayer Campaigns (like when the Devs spawn dozens of Red/Purple in public areas on Lam**), Randomized dungeons, Player Created Content, etc. Every trick in the book so to speak. At some point management has to be able to see that devmanhours-to-playerreplayvalue ratio is getting worse and worse, and then start trying to develop better, replayable, content systems. DDO's current Quest/Raid/Challenge limitation has reached critical mass.

    ** So, imagine an instanced Campaign (like Mabar or Cove), set in the Marketplace for example. The area is crawling with Devils (a la Chronoscope). Red and Purples are spawning in the usual places, Bank, SteamTunnels, Phoenix, etc., with no end in sight. Key points (like Bank Roof, Rusty Nail, Tent, etc.) must be cleared and the HELD, for x hours, before the end battle can spawn. Players can come and go at will, the instance supports 100 players inside at once, the Campaign lasts until either the we or the baddies 'win'. Rewards based on some kind of contribution formula.

    Not saying that's perfect or even very well thought out, just off the cuff. But it's the kind of thing that might keep us busy for years trying to obtain the rewards, or complete the associated crafting, or whatever.

  5. #285

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    Interesting ideas, hopefully we can see some of them in future.
    Myself, I love the Cove/Challenges even without making items for it.

  6. #286
    Community Member Cleanincubus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

    To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'
    • Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
    • Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
    • As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

    Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

    ~E
    This is nitpicking here, but could you call this Epic Destiny Reincarnation, rather than Epic Reincarnation? Since Epic Destinies are not free, and as you just stated that "points" in a "Destiny Sphere" are required, it doesn't seem possible for a Premium player (without Epic Destinies) to do an Epic Reincarnation. So if it has more to do with Epic Destines, the name should show that, IMHO.

  7. #287
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    One thing; don't make it cost more xp each time you ETR, please. Have some mercy on your players.

  8. #288

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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    One thing; don't make it cost more xp each time you ETR, please. Have some mercy on your players.
    +1
    Indeed.

  9. #289
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleanincubus View Post
    This is nitpicking here, but could you call this Epic Destiny Reincarnation, rather than Epic Reincarnation? Since Epic Destinies are not free, and as you just stated that "points" in a "Destiny Sphere" are required, it doesn't seem possible for a Premium player (without Epic Destinies) to do an Epic Reincarnation. So if it has more to do with Epic Destines, the name should show that, IMHO.
    they are NOT calling it Epic Destiny Reincarnation for a reason.

    The original plan was Epic destiny Reincarnation. in the original proposal you lost ALL Epic Destiny XP

    the Reincarnation is of Epic levels not of Epic Destinies hence the name.

  10. #290

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    the Reincarnation is of Epic levels not of Epic Destinies hence the name.
    But it's destiny xp that "earns" the ability to do it, not epic level xp. In other words, if you do not own epic destinies you will not physically be able to earn the "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD) that are required in order to do an epic reincarnation.

    Which does seem a little wrong, to be honest. It may be time to revisit the idea of allowing a limited version of epic destinies to free players. For example, allow core autogrants and destiny map traversing to everyone, but only people who bought destinies can actually spend AP in their destiny trees.

  11. #291

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    An item scorned by the elite end game crowd:

    Lines of Supply Epic (ML 27)
    Sage's Shoes (Epic) - Conjuration Focus V, Vitality +40

    It provides +5 conjuration focus.


    Three cleric Past lives only provide a mere +3 conjuration focus.

    That +3 is small fraction of the typical totals one will see players brag about.
    A very small portion.

    Even if something like:
    Arcane Specialist ~ you have obtains all arcane epic destiny sphere past lives.
    You gain stacking +1 to all your spell DCs.
    Obtainable three times.

    Was allowed, the amount of change to spell DCs would be minor compared to ability scores, enhancements, epic destines, feats,
    items, more items, etc...



    Ditto for
    Martial Specialist ~ you have obtains all arcane epic destiny sphere past lives.
    You gain stacking +1 to all your combat DCs.
    Obtainable three times.

  12. #292
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    But it's destiny xp that "earns" the ability to do it, not epic level xp. In other words, if you do not own epic destinies you will not physically be able to earn the "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD) that are required in order to do an epic reincarnation.

    Which does seem a little wrong, to be honest. It may be time to revisit the idea of allowing a limited version of epic destinies to free players. For example, allow core autogrants and destiny map traversing to everyone, but only people who bought destinies can actually spend AP in their destiny trees.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

    To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'
    • Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
    • Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
    • As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

    Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

    ~E
    more info will be needed before your conjecture is more than just that

  13. #293
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    An item scorned by the elite end game crowd:

    Lines of Supply Epic (ML 27)
    Sage's Shoes (Epic) - Conjuration Focus V, Vitality +40

    It provides +5 conjuration focus.


    Three cleric Past lives only provide a mere +3 conjuration focus.

    That +3 is small fraction of the typical totals one will see players brag about.
    A very small portion.

    Even if something like:
    Arcane Specialist ~ you have obtains all arcane epic destiny sphere past lives.
    You gain stacking +1 to all your spell DCs.
    Obtainable three times.

    Was allowed, the amount of change to spell DCs would be minor compared to ability scores, enhancements, epic destines, feats,
    items, more items, etc...



    Ditto for
    Martial Specialist ~ you have obtains all arcane epic destiny sphere past lives.
    You gain stacking +1 to all your combat DCs.
    Obtainable three times.
    I'm okay with small increases in spell DC for the epic destiny feats. I think +3 (e.g. if a +1 bonus were stackable three times) would be too much and think +1 DC (as a single non-stacking bonus from one sphere) would be more appropriate since virtually every spell school provides either AoE CC or insta-kills.

    For combat tactics feats like stuns, etc, I'm okay with larger DC increases as long as something is done about the anomalous 'insta-kill with a tactics DC' that is Quivering Palm. I know there are AoE knockdowns here too, but they feel less powerful than long-term CC like Web or Otto's.

    I appreciate that past lives give less DC than items and other things, but I don't really see that as overly relevant. The point that past lives stack with everything mean I think looking at figures of similarly geared characters makes more sense.

    If you use that method: the gap of 5 Conjuration DC between a first lifer and a completionist, three cleric PL, active wizard PL character, is already sufficiently large in my opinion. Blow it out to 8 DC and it gets weird to scale.

    Should the 8 DC higher web be no fail in endgame EE? If so, that's a bit sad. Alternatively, should it only be say 80% success? If so, then the first lifer, who has still dedicated every single point possible into Conjuration, can't bring Web CC into EEs since 40% isn't going to do the job.

    I agree there should be reward for time investment into past lives (though I remain skeptical of the merits of allowing completionist to stack multiple times). My point is that I don't think the absence of past lives should be a barrier to playing EE since what a good portion of potential players find fun is knowing they are playing the end game.

    If we blow out DCs (even further), that's a sure fire way to either remove challenge or new players from the endgame.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
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    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  14. #294
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    I'm okay with small increases in spell DC for the epic destiny feats. I think +3 (e.g. if a +1 bonus were stackable three times) would be too much and think +1 DC (as a single non-stacking bonus from one sphere) would be more appropriate since virtually every spell school provides either AoE CC or insta-kills.

    For combat tactics feats like stuns, etc, I'm okay with larger DC increases as long as something is done about the anomalous 'insta-kill with a tactics DC' that is Quivering Palm. I know there are AoE knockdowns here too, but they feel less powerful than long-term CC like Web or Otto's.

    I appreciate that past lives give less DC than items and other things, but I don't really see that as overly relevant. The point that past lives stack with everything mean I think looking at figures of similarly geared characters makes more sense.

    If you use that method: the gap of 5 Conjuration DC between a first lifer and a completionist, three cleric PL, active wizard PL character, is already sufficiently large in my opinion. Blow it out to 8 DC and it gets weird to scale.

    Should the 8 DC higher web be no fail in endgame EE? If so, that's a bit sad. Alternatively, should it only be say 80% success? If so, then the first lifer, who has still dedicated every single point possible into Conjuration, can't bring Web CC into EEs since 40% isn't going to do the job.

    I agree there should be reward for time investment into past lives (though I remain skeptical of the merits of allowing completionist to stack multiple times). My point is that I don't think the absence of past lives should be a barrier to playing EE since what a good portion of potential players find fun is knowing they are playing the end game.

    If we blow out DCs (even further), that's a sure fire way to either remove challenge or new players from the endgame.
    Pretty much what I was getting at upthread about progressing along pre-existing feat-chains per EPL (And I probably could have put that better. Figured the groups of three made it obvious. By some of the responses, apparently not.). Moar power, without necessarily locking out folks just coming up, or alts from contributing via one aspect if they focus on it.

    One thing I haven't seen mentioned that should probably be hashed out: Should ETR benefits exceed normal TRing, given that for a normal one, a portion of that life is spent away from accumulating relevant endgame gear, whereas with an ETR, there's quite a bit less of a gap in time (if at all, considering what actual epic levels truly contribute in the scheme of things)?
    Last edited by Scraap; 09-20-2013 at 03:10 AM.

  15. #295
    Community Member JasonJi72's Avatar
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    I agree that Heroic TRing on a Legend life is infinitely less 'grindy' than going from 20 to 28, and the past life feats should reflect this. If there is no xp penalty, you could probably get 3 Epic Past lives easier, or less painful, than running yet another Legend life through content that you are beginning to find quite nausiating.

    On the bright side, I don't see much reason to TR anymore. I was proud of my monk and ranger past lives... until I saw my first +9 to melee/ranged damage item.
    Jyn... Kender... Thelanis

    *Insert clever comment here*

  16. #296
    Community Member JasonJi72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJi72 View Post
    I agree that Heroic TRing on a Legend life is infinitely MORE 'grindy' than going from 20 to 28, and the past life feats should reflect this. If there is no xp penalty, you could probably get 3 Epic Past lives easier, or less painful, than running yet another Legend life through content that you are beginning to find quite nausiating.

    On the bright side, I don't see much reason to TR anymore. I was proud of my monk and ranger past lives... until I saw my first +9 to melee/ranged damage item.
    I love how the new forums won't let me edit posts. I really do!
    Jyn... Kender... Thelanis

    *Insert clever comment here*

  17. #297

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    This is funny.

    Quite a few people think that the game should be tailored to them, and because they don't want to slowly spend more time working on their toons, then DDO should not reward time and effort spent playing the game.

    The carrots are so bad right now and the past lives are so outdated by the increases made by the introductions of new loot, more levels, and epic destinies, that people think they have the right to demand that DDO not reward time and effort spent in the game.

    Quite a few people think first life toons should be similar to fourty or hundred life toons.

    Then people log in for the next update, complain about the loot not being uber enough, play for two weeks, then go find another game to play.

    DDO is going to be here for long time, and the Devs should place some long term goals.

    Having trouble with Epic Normal or Epic Hard? Currently a lot of people sneer at those difficulties. I enjoy those difficulties. Epic Elite is a challenge for me and I think that is good. No one should take for granted Epic Elite, if they breeze thru it with a first life toon, something about the game is wrong.

    People are protesting and have been protesting because they don't want to have to play the game more just to stay at the top. This makes no sense. Effort and playing time should be rewarded. Its not just here and now or one person, its been many places since updating reincarnation discussions started.


    When combat DCs hit 70ish, any past life bonues are very, very small.

    When spell DCs hit 50ish and way beyond, any past life bonuses are very, very small.

  18. #298

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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJi72 View Post
    I love how the new forums won't let me edit posts. I really do!
    Right click on edit post button and use the option to open in a new tab.
    After you are done typing, open or refresh another page and make sure you are still logged in.
    Then return to the edit and submit.

  19. #299

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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJi72 View Post
    On the bright side, I don't see much reason to TR anymore. I was proud of my monk and ranger past lives... until I saw my first +9 to melee/ranged damage item.
    This.

    So much has changed since TRing was introduced.
    Inflation has seriously degraded past life bonuses.

  20. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    This is funny.

    Quite a few people think that the game should be tailored to them, and because they don't want to slowly spend more time working on their toons, then DDO should not reward time and effort spent playing the game.

    The carrots are so bad right now and the past lives are so outdated by the increases made by the introductions of new loot, more levels, and epic destinies, that people think they have the right to demand that DDO not reward time and effort spent in the game.

    Quite a few people think first life toons should be similar to fourty or hundred life toons.
    Well I think the game should at least attempt to maintain a sense of balance.

    And as far as first life toons being comparable to 40th or 100th life toons, that all depends on the build.

    Most first life melee, twinked out (easier to do now then ever) can keep the pace a multi-trd melee.

    A first life Shiradi caster (sure you gotta work your way there) can be just as viable as a multi-trd one.

    A first life DC caster will not be close to a DC caster with multiple Spell Pen PLs and a few more DCs.

    Most of what you are talking about has already happened for alot of builds. EDs in general have made multi-trs not that much better then a first lifer with similar gear. So previously, a grind was released as a means to an alternative end-game and/or a way to increase your chacters power. Now, a bit later they release EDs and insane gear that all but trivializes PLs. Now they are announcing a brand new grind as a means to an alternative end-game and/or a way to increase your characters power...Hmmm.

    Now so long as it has fun in it, I don't mind being a hamster at the wheel. But, make no mistake that's exactly what they want.

    To further, I think the answer would be for these ED PLs to be unique and fun, but not game breaking and not stacking. A first life toon should have the ability to hold his own on EN-EH and depending on build be able to contribute on challenging EE. (Casters especially DC ones are going to have the toughest time here). Multi-trd, ED trd characters should be a cut above the rest and be able of completing the most difficult of content. But they shouldn't be so far ahead that the only option is to either tr and ed tr a bunch of times or just quit as you will never reach the level of folks who have played the game longer/with more frequency than you.
    Git off mah lawn!

    If, If's and But's was Candies and Nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

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