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  1. #1
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Default Henshin need to be reworked

    The changes in 19.2 to henshin are pointless. The entire tree needs a serious reworking, and adding critical chance to terrible damage isn't going to help anything, it's just spitting in your eyes. The force/fire damage is pretty bad, the DC's are horrific unless you gimp everything else and pump wisdom, and the unique ki attacks feel clunky, especially considering their mobility penalties. I made a thread about this over in the monk class section, but maybe people here might have some more input. This is a great class concept that has gone to waste.

    1. Ability Points
    First of all, then henshin tree is extremely AP heavy. All but two (yes, only two) of the enhancements require 2 AP to get. This is ridiculous. By level 12, my henshin already spent 43 of his 45 AP in this tree just to break even with the tier 5 abilities. The point costs needs to be reduced, severely.

    2. Ki finisher DC's
    Henshin monks don't have near the capability of their spellcaster counterparts to increase their DC's, and with everything being a reflex save, using anything ki-related in the henshin tree after level 15 or so is just pointless, especially against mobs with evasion. I expect henshin will be nothing more than a quarterstaff monk with 3 extra (and pointless) uses of meditation in epic content. A few possible suggestions:

    --- Let ki finishers be evocation for the purposes of difficulty checks (or conjuration, since it seems more fitting with the henshin theme). This would allow henshin monks to use conjuration focus items to increase their DC's.

    --- Change 'Mystic Training' to give +2/+4/+6 to ki finisher moves instead of +1/+2/+3. This isn't overpowered, as it only affects henshin monks: shintao or ninjas aren't going to spend their time on ki attacks other than stunning fist. Only henshin is going to be concerned about finisher DC's.

    3. Spellpower
    Henshin fire/force damage is interesting, and a wonderful concept, but their damage is low. Having high DC's means nothing if the damage output is horrible, and with the low DC's and constant reflex saves, the damage is beyond pitiful. Monks have a difficult time as it is fitting in gear without henshin having to worry about spellpower. I'm not asking henshin to be a spellcasting powerhouse, but in their current state the vast majority of ki abilities in the tree are useless. Some possible solutions.

    --- Increase the spellpower gained through henshin core enhancements from +5 to +10. This would equal +75 fire/force spellpower instead of +50.

    --- The quarterstaff enhancement line could give +2 fire/force spellpower for each taken, totaling +10 with tier 5.

    --- This last point is controversial: metamagics. If you want henshin to be a ki-finisher, fire-breathing monk, they need to be able to utilize some sort of metamagic effect. I don't necessarily mean being able to use metamagic feats, but provide henshin with some sort of toggle that increases the power of ki attacks but increases the ki cost or something along those lines.

    4. Useless enhancements
    Henshin feels a lot like the rogue mechanic and cleric/fvs protection trees; interesting concepts, but ultimately sub-par compared to their counterparts. They are all 'dump trees', trees you spend points in to get a few odds and ends but don't take the entire tree seriously. There is a ton of wasted space in the henshin tree.

    --- Elemental words: complete and utter waste of AP in order to get the void attack, the only decent attack other than quick strike that the henshin gets. This is 8 AP spent on attacks you will never, ever use, and in-and-of-themselves, are not worth 2 AP each. Change these to something useful or just get rid of them. This would be a good place to put a spellpower line of enhancements, separating my above comment from the quarterstaff line; thus giving players in henshin a choice of spellpower or dps or both. Another line of enhancements to put here would be the metamagic-like toggles I mentioned above.

    --- Negotiator: why, oh why, is this even here? I know henshin are supposed to be masters of riddles and words, but this just feels completely out of place. Get rid of it or change it.

    5. Quarterstaves
    I like the idea of quarterstaves for damage. In fact, this is a great part of the tree, and it offers excellent multiclass capabilities with the rogue acrobat. However, there is a certain issue with this in henshin mystic. In order to achieve DC's for finishing moves and unique ki abilities, henshin needs to have high -- very high -- wisdom. This all but overrules any strength build for henshins unless you're completely focused on dps. A simple solution:

    --- Give a wisdom-to-attack/damage mod for quarterstaves in the henshin core enhancements, probably at level 1 and 6. It might seem odd, but henshin really does require you to be a pure wisdom build if you want to get anywhere with ki attacks. This would also give interesting synergy with druids, favored souls, and clerics, as well as paladins.

    6. Ki Regeneration and Retention
    For a type of monk that relies heavily on ki regeneration and acquisition, it is pretty difficult to gain and very easy to use. By level 20, you only have +2 passive ki regeneration from the entire tree. It seems to me, if henshin is to be any viable sort of build, it needs to be able to gain ki almost as quickly as it spends it. And, if you use the 'Lightning the Candle' toggle, you lose much of the ki you gain on-hit. This almost seems to punish monks that use it instead of reward.

    --- Give a +1 passive ki generation on core enhancements 12 and 18. This would increase the total generation rate to +4. If you think about it, monks don't generate ki passively very quickly, and this doesn't seem overpowering in any way and it will only affect henshin monks, because no shintao or ninja is going to delve that deeply into the henshin tree.

    --- You could change the useless 'Elemental Words' enhancements and simply keep their AP cost, and make them add +1 passive ki generation per tier.


    Thoughts? Comments?

  2. #2
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I'd be interested in seeing what a 1 wizard dip and adding metamagics would do to their DPS.

    I'd love to see a high-level view on DCs in general. The fact is that there are some things in game that can get to "big enough" DCs pretty easily - and some that can't. The bard freeze-the-dude ability is in the WC tree and maxes at something like 18 + CHA mod - entirely pointless for hard or elite play given that the bard with a zero CHA mod can still have something like a 50 fascinate DC without much effort.

    I wouldn't mind pairing the useless attacks with spellpower / ki-regen - OR making it a multi-selector (attack, fire, force or ki regen). There is a lot of junk in some of these trees, and the opportunity cost to use most of these is too high (too many things to click, we don't use them).
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  3. #3
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    I'd be interested in seeing what a 1 wizard dip and adding metamagics would do to their DPS.

    I'd love to see a high-level view on DCs in general. The fact is that there are some things in game that can get to "big enough" DCs pretty easily - and some that can't. The bard freeze-the-dude ability is in the WC tree and maxes at something like 18 + CHA mod - entirely pointless for hard or elite play given that the bard with a zero CHA mod can still have something like a 50 fascinate DC without much effort.

    I wouldn't mind pairing the useless attacks with spellpower / ki-regen - OR making it a multi-selector (attack, fire, force or ki regen). There is a lot of junk in some of these trees, and the opportunity cost to use most of these is too high (too many things to click, we don't use them).
    Thing with metamagics is, you can right click on henshin's unique ki abilities and they have the 'no metamagics available' message. But, you need the magical training feat in order to use metamagics, something which the monk does not gain unless they multiclass. This means you 'might' be able to use metas on the unique ki abilities ONLY if you multiclass? That sounds like a horrendous idea. Taking the magical training feat itself is an option, but, honestly, if you need to get an utterly useless feat for your class just to be able to get useful feats for your class is also a silly idea, and very poorly designed.

  4. #4
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Thing with metamagics is, you can right click on henshin's unique ki abilities and they have the 'no metamagics available' message. But, you need the magical training feat in order to use metamagics, something which the monk does not gain unless they multiclass. This means you 'might' be able to use metas on the unique ki abilities ONLY if you multiclass? That sounds like a horrendous idea. Taking the magical training feat itself is an option, but, honestly, if you need to get an utterly useless feat for your class just to be able to get useful feats for your class is also a silly idea, and very poorly designed.
    You don't need magical training for metamagics. Bards don't get magical training, for example, and they can certainly use metamagics.

    You do need to be able to cast spells, though, so that would have to change if Henshin are meant to use metamagics.

  5. #5
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    if they allow wisdom to staff damage/attack mod.. ill roll one totally..

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    if they allow wisdom to staff damage/attack mod.. ill roll one totally..
    This would really help. The cost of the enhancements in Henshin need to come down as well thou.

  7. #7
    Community Member Kik97's Avatar
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    Default Still no void strike love for shintao or ninja spy monk.

    Actually, all the monk prestige classes need to be reworked. The devs haven't come up with a way for shintao or ninja spy to acquire VOID STRIKE without locking themselves out of their level 5 enhancements in their main enhancement tree. To be honest void strike should be a granted class feat to be fair to all 3 of the monk prestige classes.

  8. #8
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kik97 View Post
    Actually, all the monk prestige classes need to be reworked. The devs haven't come up with a way for shintao or ninja spy to acquire VOID STRIKE without locking themselves out of their level 5 enhancements in their main enhancement tree. To be honest void strike should be a granted class feat to be fair to all 3 of the monk prestige classes.
    Out of all of the classes in the enhancement pass, monks and rogues came out on top. But, they both have trees that fall flat of what they were intended to be: henshin mystic and the rogue mechanic. As I stated above, henshin is pretty much a quarterstaff-using monk with a very, very slight advantage with regenerating/maintaining ki. They should be the best at utilizing ki attacks, but they fail at this, just slightly less so than shintao or ninja. Giving both shintao and ninja spy the void attack serves only to lessen one of the few useful abilities henshin has to begin with.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    5. Quarterstaves
    I like the idea of quarterstaves for damage. In fact, this is a great part of the tree, and it offers excellent multiclass capabilities with the rogue acrobat. However, there is a certain issue with this in henshin mystic. In order to achieve DC's for finishing moves and unique ki abilities, henshin needs to have high -- very high -- wisdom. This all but overrules any strength build for henshins unless you're completely focused on dps. A simple solution:

    --- Give a wisdom-to-attack/damage mod for quarterstaves in the henshin core enhancements, probably at level 1 and 6. It might seem odd, but henshin really does require you to be a pure wisdom build if you want to get anywhere with ki attacks. This would also give interesting synergy with druids, favored souls, and clerics, as well as paladins.

    <SNIP>

    Thoughts? Comments?
    Add “Sudden Willow Strike*” in there somewhere as well. Basically it’s Stunning Fist, except you do it with a quarterstaff.

    EDIT: Also, with all they’re giving up from not going unarmed, add in some +.5W action per tier of Staff Training.

    * Yes, it’s an actual Eberron monk fighting style from P&P.
    Last edited by QuantumFX; 10-15-2013 at 02:30 AM.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • Fixing physical defense for Rangers and Rogues. It’s ridiculous that you’re better off wearing Heavy Armor and ignoring your innate feats on these classes.
    • Cannith Crafting.
    • Update the named loot to put them on the same system.
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Fixing all challenges to give us decent XP and ingredient returns for the unreasonable time we have to spend in most of them.

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