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Thread: Loot Inflation

  1. #21
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    OP - I respect the fact that you constructed a coherent, non-emotive and well structured argument.
    Nice to see occasionally on the forums.

    I may not agree with all your points, but I agree with the point you are trying to make.
    As usual, there is the usual flippant comments about "that's MMO's" or "don't participate" etc.
    And these statements are semi- true, if not very constructive.

    There is a middle ground between no loot obsolescence and rapid obsolescence.
    Any experience PnP GM knows the danger of too much loot too soon.
    You end up with a "mungbean" campaign where the GM is forced to escalate the challenge more and more as the players become nigh on invincible. We all made this mistake at some point in our gaming career.
    This problem exists in MMO's and is amplified by two factors - the sheer number and diversity of the player base; and the ability to trade items on a large scale.
    The first means content has to be accessible to those who are new or not particularly skilled players, whilst still being challenging to those uber ones that walk amongst us mere mortals.
    The second means it is easier to maximise your character's power through customisation.

    These are both the strength and weakness of any MMO. They must be managed.
    The devs need to provide enough challenge.
    The problem they are facing is the "power creep" is accelerating making obsolescence advance too fast IMHO. I have no problem with advancing the game and refreshing it - absolutely necessary. Making people grind for months or years to get items may have seemed like a good idea at the time to keep the player base motivated, but it is coming back to bite now in the form of resentment.

    Some players embrace the changes and love the new loot, which is great.
    Some players with a lot of time and effort invested in the game resent the perceived lack of respect.
    I understand the dismissive comments about having "fun", but we all derive our fun/satisfaction in different ways. Some grind, some solo, some TR and some don't.
    I believe the real strength of DDO is customisation and replayability.

    The challenge the devs face as any experienced GM knows is how to provide challenge now and into the future.
    There are signs they are running out of ideas and painting themselves into a corner.
    Bosses resistant to everything except raw damage and just big bags of HP to be beaten down over an hour or so. Poison traps doing large amounts of un-resistable damage. Monster CR's into ridiculous ranges (CR60+ mobs and CR70+ bosses) pitted against parties of six level 25-28 characters is a clear indication that the balance has been lost along the way.
    Yay, fun...
    As the game cap went from level 10 to 12 to 16 and then 20, there were substantive changes that had to be made to keep game balance.
    No-one enjoys the nerfing of abilities like immunities etc, but it was a necessary step to re-introduce challenge.

    Interesting to see where DDO goes from here. It has to keep attracting and retaining new players, as well as keeping older players interested. That is quite a challenge!

  2. #22
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    It's fair because the low wisdom score of the player is the only reason they fell into that trap anyway. The moment you realize it will take months to get an item is the moment you should realize it is not worth getting. The longer you play MMO's the more you realize that you don't need that rare item whatever it is.
    I can't tell if this serious or just troll, so I have no way to respond.

  3. #23
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    The Top dps THF weapon is STILL the ESOS, and has only recently actually had competition in that category. Cleaver is still argued as being second, and it's from now 5 updates ago (had CITW opened on time. I'm still saying it's u14 gear).

    The Top twf weapon is still argued, yet we can mostly agree it's either from CITW or GH. Either way, the Planar Focus is such a sticking point that most people will try and spec to use it in at least their offhand for the bonus. Even then though for a Khopesh the Epic Chaosblade is no slouch in this department.

    Greensteel is still the #1 thing to use while leveling. Black Dragon armour is still an awesome dps armour to use while leveling, and now it has an epic version that even leaves the base item.

    Besides that, would you have wanted them to increase the level cap and not give us any new weapons or gear at all? I mean yes the jump from +8 gear to now we can find +11 stats is a bit insane for 3 levels, but they could fix that by about this time next year (hopefully 2 years from now, if not 3) raising the cap to 30 and capping stat items off at +12 on raid/EE gear. That would justify the rather interesting jump we had.

    However, I for one am happy at the lootgen tables being changed. Last thing I wanted was for Nightmare and Grave Wrappings to get nerfed, ala Terror because of the increased availability of Obscenity.

  4. #24
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    This is how most, if not all, MMO's are. New updates bring better and more powerful loot.
    From my experience the new loot comes with an increase to the max level, not as a replacement for lower level items.

    We already had a shift to +ability items (+6 used to be ml13, now ml11). Cannith crafted +4 Competence bonus to Attack goggles are currently ml 15 (used to be ml 7 but they found it was too OP) and require a rare ingredient, while you can easily find goggles with +4 attack & +4 damage at this level.

    Ghost Bane is very common now, it combines Ghost Touch and Undead Bane which allows a prefix, rendering cannith crafted Ghost Touch weapons of Undead Bane useless.

    Old epic items, especially epic item sets like epic Claw set, epic Might of the Abishai (so many Chronoscope runs and pp spent to get a 5 piece set! ) that used to be powerful are now gathering dust in the bank.

    Unbound +4 tomes (from Festivult) used to be so rare, only rumors proved their existence.

    My ml4 +1 Acid Greatsword of Pure Good, enchanted with Risia Frost is now ml 8, not much of a good low level weapon anymore.



    So much time spent on the game gathering shiny items which are now vendor trash or taking up bank space.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bills2groggy View Post
    The loot inflation devalues all longer term players inventories. I farmed Sands forever to get a bloodstone, others worked forever to save a million plat to buy one. Now +4 & +6 seeker items drop like the rain. So do fortification % items, +1 and even +2 DC (e.g., evocation) items, etc. This feels like a slap in the face to me , I worked hard to farm items with these abilities. Further, many of the old items were only useable at much higher levels.
    Yep and not only did it give your play a purpose, but it served you well when it was the top dog.

    I really don't understand the mind set here. If things didn't evolve game play would stagnate as soon as you hit the games static goals. So you spent some time farming this years best in spot items. What are you going to be spending time on next year if they don't introduce new best and slot items for you to farm?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Yep and not only did it give your play a purpose, but it served you well when it was the top dog.

    I really don't understand the mind set here.
    You don't understand wanting to enjoy the fruits of your efforts huh?

    If things didn't evolve game play would stagnate as soon as you hit the games static goals. So you spent some time farming this years best in spot items. What are you going to be spending time on next year if they don't introduce new best and slot items for you to farm?
    I am just going to wager that you didn't do anything to accomplish much with your game time when you played if you are sincerely asking this question, and to be honest it's not an easy thing to try to explain to someone how having all your game effort made into wasted effort is annoying, if they have no idea what it means to accomplish goals.

    But to be blunt, I did not spend time farming "this years" best in slot items, if I went after what had been the best items several years running, and as I farmed for them, they remained the best items, if at any point I knew they were going to be turned into temporary trash, I would not have bothered myself. It only serves me well, if the effort justifies the reward. In this case, having the item become invalid, eliminates the justification for the effort.

    Turbine then turned around and made what had been very long standing items into "this years" items, which means, there really is not point to bother farming for them anymore.

    Now, beyond just the sheer insult to the players themselves who had farmed the gear, you may have missed a bigger point, the quest did not go away, the loot from it just got turned to trash. So the quest remains there, the loot remains there, and it is all now wasted memory space. There is no need for me to get it for an alt, there is no need for a new player to quest after, it's trash, junk, there is no reason for someone to buy the pack, or do the quests at this point in the game, and that is about as bad a design decision as you could make for any game, to make your older content not worth running. That is what putting in items with longevity ensures, that your content, from the first dungeon to the last, gets run, that players want to run them, that players want the loot from them. That new players are moved to farm them for their own gear sets, and the older players show off what you can get and what you can do with it. After all they have had the time to optimize their gear sets.

    In today's game, I an not going to spend a month farming an item that I will be throwing away in a week, that is a waste of my time. The truth is, only by making items with longevity do they become farm worthy, only items with a long life are items worth having, anything else is not worth more then a passing glance.

    It is one thing to move up on the list: IE: You have the best items for level 25, and then peruse the best items for level 28. That is an acceptable pursuit.

    What is not acceptable is to have level 10 items getting invalidated. I did not farm all this gear over the course of the last few lives and years to have to farm gear again. I did that work as prep to be able to just log in and play and not worry about gear anymore. It was never intended to be "this years" gear for me. If I felt the urge to keep farming gear, I could always go after a few remaining items that I don't have or make and outfit an alt, at no point did I ever want to have to re-farm gear for the same toon.

    So maybe you don't understand that mindset, well, you're not alone, it seems neither does Turbine, and the numbers show they are losing players because of it, just like you would if you had your hand in designing this game.
    Last edited by Ungood; 09-13-2013 at 11:07 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    When you spent months even years farming and working to get what was once top gear, to only have it turn to dust on you, is not fair at all, in any way, shape, or form.
    Or the alternative view.

    When you spent months or even years farming and playing to get the top gear, to only have nothing new to play for, it's not good in any way, shape or form.

    DDO's main problem in this regard is that, due to it's lack of a progressive system, once something new and better comes out old gear farms just get skipped past. Players simply do without since the game allows them to and the devs don't have any incentive to not simply replicate the effects of older named gear that nobody much bothers with anymore.

    Even in games with set linear progressions, where the older gear is positively needed to move on to the next set, older gear drop rates generally go up with every new step to encourage new players to stick with the game by giving them the chance to catch up with the herd.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Or the alternative view.

    When you spent months or even years farming and playing to get the top gear, to only have nothing new to play for, it's not good in any way, shape or form.
    LOL. Like this ever happens. By the time you get all the gear you want, you are then allowed to make other progressions on your character, like TRing, or making an alt.

    In fact, being able to finish your gear on a character is a mark of good design, as it allows you to branch out beyond the gear grind for a single toon, no one likes being locked into a hamster-wheel of needing to re-grind gear, that is why many other games make it so that when you hit end game, there is a final set of gear you can get, a BiS item.

    DDO was very special in regard that it not offer a BiS item, but gave variants, so players could and would be inspired to farm several items for the same slot, and then they want and made that time and effort a wasted time and effort.

    That's a great way to inspire people to not spend their time and effort doing that again.


    DDO's main problem in this regard is that, due to it's lack of a progressive system, once something new and better comes out old gear farms just get skipped past. Players simply do without since the game allows them to and the devs don't have any incentive to not simply replicate the effects of older named gear that nobody much bothers with anymore.
    No, that is a new thing, maybe the cause of people with no vision taking over, but before MotuD, people ran a level 10 raid at level 20, to get the gear for that level 20 toon. That is testament to good gear design. That was what longevity was all about.

    This **** they are putting out now, well, it's painfully clear that even the top level raids are not being run anymore, because their gear is just not enough of an incentive to bother with them.

    There was a discussion a while back about the difference between looking at metrics and having just insight and knowledge into what was going on. Some people have insight and working knowledge of what will sell and what moves their player base, other people don't.

    If you don't understand why someone is upset that what they put in time, money and effort to acquire got turned into trash, then I don't think anything I can say will give you an eureka moment.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    You don't understand wanting to enjoy the fruits of your efforts huh?
    Unless you just recently plucked those fruits, it would seem you have had a chance.



    I am just going to wager that you didn't do anything to accomplish much with your game time when you played if you are sincerely asking this question, and to be honest it's not an easy thing to try to explain to someone how having all your game effort made into wasted effort is annoying, if they have no idea what it means to accomplish goals.

    But to be blunt, I did not spend time farming "this years" best in slot items, if I went after what had been the best items several years running, and as I farmed for them, they remained the best items, if at any point I knew they were going to be turned into temporary trash, I would not have bothered myself. It only serves me well, if the effort justifies the reward. In this case, having the item become invalid, eliminates the justification for the effort.

    Turbine then turned around and made what had been very long standing items into "this years" items, which means, there really is not point to bother farming for them anymore.

    Now, beyond just the sheer insult to the players themselves who had farmed the gear, you may have missed a bigger point, the quest did not go away, the loot from it just got turned to trash. So the quest remains there, the loot remains there, and it is all now wasted memory space. There is no need for me to get it for an alt, there is no need for a new player to quest after, it's trash, junk, there is no reason for someone to buy the pack, or do the quests at this point in the game, and that is about as bad a design decision as you could make for any game, to make your older content not worth running. That is what putting in items with longevity ensures, that your content, from the first dungeon to the last, gets run, that players want to run them, that players want the loot from them. That new players are moved to farm them for their own gear sets, and the older players show off what you can get and what you can do with it. After all they have had the time to optimize their gear sets.

    In today's game, I an not going to spend a month farming an item that I will be throwing away in a week, that is a waste of my time. The truth is, only by making items with longevity do they become farm worthy, only items with a long life are items worth having, anything else is not worth more then a passing glance.

    It is one thing to move up on the list: IE: You have the best items for level 25, and then peruse the best items for level 28. That is an acceptable pursuit.

    What is not acceptable is to have level 10 items getting invalidated. I did not farm all this gear over the course of the last few lives and years to have to farm gear again. I did that work as prep to be able to just log in and play and not worry about gear anymore. It was never intended to be "this years" gear for me. If I felt the urge to keep farming gear, I could always go after a few remaining items that I don't have or make and outfit an alt, at no point did I ever want to have to re-farm gear for the same toon.

    So maybe you don't understand that mindset, well, you're not alone, it seems neither does Turbine, and the numbers show they are losing players because of it, just like you would if you had your hand in designing this game.
    You are right. I have never felt I accomplished anything beyond making some friends in this game. I really don't see how re-visiting content from time to time until I win the lottery is accomplishing much anyway and see no good reason to run something continuously until the number comes up, if I can't find something more engaging to do in game, I can certainly do so out of game.

    As for the effect it has on older content. Do you think many new players are spending more time farming items than they are using them? Would you actually spend a month farming something on an alt that cuts even a few days off the time it takes them to out level it? Turbine understands this and understands that players don't want to be bogged down in mid levels they have xp'ed past waiting for a rare item that will help them in the next stage to drop. They will either do without it or lose interest in the game. Farming gear is fine as it gives players something to do while capped waiting for new content or the next cap increase. But once that happens, it loses a lot of it's appeal.

    Do I think Turbine is moving a bit fast in this? Yes, but I don't have the data to make my answer more than an uninformed opinion. For all I know they may have some long range grand plan or things might be so bad that they are just grasping at any straw they can find to get through till the end of the year.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    If you don't understand why someone is upset that what they put in time, money and effort to acquire got turned into trash, then I don't think anything I can say will give you an eureka moment.
    Oh, I have an idea. It's just not something I feel qualified to mention. So I'm more or less trying to avoid the whys and sticking to offering alternative viewpoints.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Unless you just recently plucked those fruits, it would seem you have had a chance.
    That is like telling someone if they build a house it's all worth it if I get to live there a month before it gets destroyed, and that the older the house, the less it should be worth.

    I don't think you realize how horrabad what you are saying sounds?

    You are right. I have never felt I accomplished anything beyond making some friends in this game.
    Fair enough, you don't understand. That's fine, and I realize that I am not going to spout the magic sentence that will have it all make sense to you.

    The numbers are pretty clear tho, DDO is in decline, and I am sure they are viewing ways to build up it's traffic, but somehow I doubt that alienating their older players who did grind gear is the right direction to go in to revitalize the game.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    You are learning, like most MMO players eventually do, that farming for gear is always a waste of time. Gear always gets better over time and the same abilities get easier to get. This is the way of things. +2 to your wisdom score for learning this. Never farm again. You will be a happier player for it.
    I will equate this to how people often view technology. Never buy technology when it is new. It will be much cheaper very soon in the future. Not only that, but soon there will be improved technology that obsoletes anything you currently have.

    I understand this thinking, and also see it's fallacy. If we all followed this, we wouldn't be having this dicussion, because none of us would have bought a computer yet.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    That is like telling someone if they build a house it's all worth it if I get to live there a month before it gets destroyed, and that the older the house, the less it should be worth.

    I don't think you realize how horrabad what you are saying sounds?
    Well if I got that house from playing video games and could get another even better one the same way, I don't see what's so bad about that situation. Just to put things into the proper perspective.

  14. #34
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    Did someone put my Diablo 3 loot into DDO? +170 to Strength soon! Plenty of crystal gem slots too...
    "The lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves." Niccolò Machiavelli
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  15. #35
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Well if I got that house from playing video games and could get another even better one the same way, I don't see what's so bad about that situation. Just to put things into the proper perspective.
    You know, honestly, you are just being deliberately obtuse at this point.

    You don't get that regardless of what I am doing, it makes it no less time out of my life doing it. Yah, surprise, some of us value the life time we are given, and even if it's in a game, we don't want that time wasted, we want it to be worthwhile to some degree.

    Yes, I get that you amble about aimlessly and directionless with no goal other then to chat and make friends on-line, but some of us, you know, log in to actually play the game, I guess that is something else you don't get, you know, playing the actual game that this message board is about.

    Sure, you think "Oh it's a video game" well I guess, then the real question is, why are you logging in if nothing you will do in this game matters at all, and every bit of time you spent doing it might as well be spent doing something else for all the value you place upon it.

    Now, like I said, you don't get it, and not only will never get it, but you seem bent on deliberately not getting it. Which makes discussion with you, a waste of time out of my life. But hopefully someone else will read this and a light will go on.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I will equate this to how people often view technology. Never buy technology when it is new. It will be much cheaper very soon in the future. Not only that, but soon there will be improved technology that obsoletes anything you currently have.

    I understand this thinking, and also see it's fallacy. If we all followed this, we wouldn't be having this dicussion, because none of us would have bought a computer yet.
    lol, well played

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Sure, you think "Oh it's a video game" well I guess, then the real question is, why are you logging in if nothing you will do in this game matters at all, and every bit of time you spent doing it might as well be spent doing something else for all the value you place upon it.
    I think Gremmlynn logs in and plays for the same reason we all do: enjoyment. How that is derived will be different for every person. What the thrust of his "It's a video game" argument appears to be is that while a player's efforts to obtain gear may be real, nothing that comes from those efforts actually exists; to wit, not of any real value in and of itself. I think the G-man is attempting to point out that being truly upset about power creep deprecating older gear is akin to having an emotional attachment to unicorns. While the feelings may be genuine, the causation is fantasy.

    I can understand both sides of this debate. It does sometime feel as if my efforts have been for naught. When I get those feelings however, I eventually remind myself to not get worked up about things over which I have little if any control and are, after all, not real. Personally, I think that point of view assists me in coping with life outside this game. I've learned over time to not sweat the small stuff and, in comparison to all other aspect of my existence, DDO is small stuff.

    Just my observations.
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  18. #38
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    the powercreep is really noticable right now i dont think anyone can disagree. so much good content is simply being skipped or just ran for the BB and so many staple items are just trash collectibles atm its quite sad.

    a prime example i see quite often is vetarans not even bothering opening chests and you get comments like "all heroic items is trash anyway" - i get it but is this what the devs had in mind when they released the expansions ?
    but what should DDO devs do about it ? add more crafting/modifying options to gear aguments are nice but who really uses it in the low lvls? rush out even more epic content for everything when everyone plays iconics anyway? welcome to the ddo slums or lvl 1-15.. where most new players end up server hoping anyways good "riddance i wont have to run with those newbs anymore im above those anyway" bleh.
    ive been wondering why ive heard people on gameing sites and forums calling ddo a dead game and steering people away from trying it out, they dont have a chance to reach the main bulk of the playerbase.

    i bought motu and now anything that isnt motu in motu is trash gj its the burning crusade all over again, when was the last time anyone saw a pub run for hound of xoriat or vision of destruction or other lvl equivilent runs ? run it once and rush to cap to play epic's its awesome
    /rant off
    just an alt-o-holics point of view

  19. #39
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebastianosmith View Post
    I think Gremmlynn logs in and plays for the same reason we all do: enjoyment. How that is derived will be different for every person. What the thrust of his "It's a video game" argument appears to be is that while a player's efforts to obtain gear may be real, nothing that comes from those efforts actually exists; to wit, not of any real value in and of itself. I think the G-man is attempting to point out that being truly upset about power creep deprecating older gear is akin to having an emotional attachment to unicorns. While the feelings may be genuine, the causation is fantasy.
    Not quite.

    It's like playing a CCG like Magic the Gathering. You spend money on, collect them, and build a deck. You play and fight battles with these cards, They have value to you based on their affect in the game, you can have traded and spent thousands of dollars and years building what would be the ideal deck.

    But lets say Magic the Gathering, Puts out an expansion that makes all the older cards totally worthless. All that time and effort to get the cards and build the ideal deck turned into a waste of time and money. However, when you put in time and money into acquiring something, regardless of what it may be, People get attached to it, same with people taking pride in their decks, and getting attached to them.

    Just in the same manner people might get attached to an old DnD character, or even their Warhammer 40K army or miniatures that is now collecting dust because Games Workshop opted to change the rules and make their army worthless.

    For someone to then announce "But now you can now go out and spend more time and more money collecting again what you already went about collecting once" really, looks kinda stupid to say the least. The fact that try to hide behind some facade that it was "gaming" material, does not make them look brilliant in the process either.

    Now, you might say, but the cards are a physical thing that you own, right? Well, yes, but outside the game they are just a bit of board with a picture on them, I can take screenshots of DDO and print them out and have the same effect as those cards give me.

    The miniatures are little more then dog chew toys outside the game, maybe a discussion piece if they were amazingly done, but that would be more about your talent as artist then the miniatures themselves, as they have no intrinsic value to anyone that does not play or is at least is involved in the game.

    These game items have zero worth anywhere else, same with most game items, outside their respective games, they don't have worth, regardless of it they are physical or digital thing.

    It's really about making things fun, and needing to go and get what I already got once, is not fun. Maybe some people like that kind of tedium, or hamster-wheel, or some people are so clueless that they think people enjoy that, but, that is not the truth at all.

    So, much like many things, like the Magic cards we have sitting in a box under the bed, or the miniatures we have in the closet in the their carry case, or that old character sheet stuffed between the pages of a first edition book that is now in a box in the basement, these things were precious, they took time, they were collected for the purpose of playing a game, they had value to the person that painstakingly acquired them, to then have someone casually dismiss them, I guess, I can't speak for anyone, but that person comes across as ignorant and uncouth.

    But when it comes to a message board about a game, the bigger question is, if you have no motivation to play the game itself, why do you even bothering playing it at all, are you really that desperate for proxy interaction?

    Anyway. Sorry man. but your example is not the same. The real point here is that just because it was spent on a digital medium, does not make it less my time and money.
    Last edited by Ungood; 09-14-2013 at 10:25 AM. Reason: i have no idea why I have those /size things.

  20. #40
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    Ill try and tackle this one as I always feel for poor Ungood since he and I do occasionally share a like minded view on a topic.

    Not this one mind you.

    Old raid loot that took forever to earn was simply a digital carrot to keep dangling in front of the least active of minds among the gamer community. Green steel which has been mentioned as some kind of shining standard is actually among the worst things ever added to the game, and the fact they still remain viable tools only highlights how poorly the game was doing back then when we stagnated at the lvl 14 cap for so very long.

    You see it all has to do with the huge gaps of time that passed between lvl cap increases and the mindset that set in during those stretches of that lvl cap being END GAME. Combine that with bugs and exploits that persisted and reappeared from time to time, and allowed players to get completely kitted out in GS gear fully cleansed and only having a lvl 8 req to wear( and these things still linger around on some uber vets to this day) created imbalances that Turbine had to take into account as the game evolved. The game was just very poorly developed in fits from launch to this day, and we see the impact such a uneven development creates.

    Items people gained at lvl 10 should have very little to no impact in todays DDO with a much higher lvl range. There are certainly useful exceptions like the beholders optic nerve, planar gird etc. But they are not useful as full time gear but as situational trinkets. There is no logic to weapons and armor aquired early in an adventuring career should be even carried at end game yet evena few exceptions still exist, including the much vaunted and blatantly OP GS gear.

    Honestly that was the only other fix they could of made, nerfed all GS gear to lvl 18 min and removed the ability to cleanse it, only then could they have ignored the plight of newer players and left them with the old trivial and largely vendor trash random loot.

    However ultimately I have to ask players like ungood this, if LOOT is the only reason to run content at all, why even play. As it implied you dont really enjoy running the content. Personally if it is old content I know to well I am rather glad the gear in it is optional so I dont have to be forced to run content I really cant enjoy anymore.

    For example I have a few friends who are much newer to DDO, they enjoy running lowbie content like the water works. I personally just cant stomach that content anymore so its good its no longer the only viable source for decent armor bracers because once a long time ago in the early days of DDO those bracers where the only real option for armor on an item slot for a super dex robe wearing build which granted was totally gimped in the old days, but still fun to play and like many builds back then had to go farm various content for specific pieces.

    I still recall how when the lvl 12 cap came and I scored a pair of +5 armor bracers with 3 charges of shield my dex based twf just about ****ed himself in amazement. I was overjoyed to see such random loot gen actually showing up.

    The OP and others hear seem to be on the opposite side of that mindset who would have instead been angry to get such random loot bracers after being stuck wearing some old named item from more then a half dozen levels ago.

    See that is what griping about things like old mid lvl raid loot being outdated sounds like to me. Like someone who would gripe about random loot gen armored bracers coming above +4 after the lvl cap increased from 10 to 12.

    Gear is going to get better, the flaw was ever making gear need to be Farmed rather then just gained via ordinary adventuring which is far more a D&D thing.

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