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  1. #1
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Default Whats the Highest SA Value Possible

    If somehow your ONLY goal is to get the highest possible SA (SA = Sneak Attack Dice) using only class/race features, feats and Epic destinies what would be the best combination?

    Note: Equipment and Past Lifess are excluded as any build can use any of those and thus can be ignored to simplify things...unless its like super exclusive...like only a Paladin can use this item.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    If somehow your ONLY goal is to get the highest possible SA (SA = Sneak Attack Dice) using only class/race features, feats and Epic destinies what would be the best combination?

    Note: Equipment and Past Lifess are excluded as any build can use any of those and thus can be ignored to simplify things...unless its like super exclusive...like only a Paladin can use this item.
    I'm not sure but this thread from earlier today might be a good start as opposed to spreading replies across multiple threads.

  3. #3
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    I'm not sure but this thread from earlier today might be a good start as opposed to spreading replies across multiple threads.
    Dang I made this thread in response Highest Unarmed damage possible being a fun experiment

    ALthough to be fair people didn't really read the title correctly as they just assumed ROgue 20 without even trying to calculate other source of SA like Ninja Spy, Druid,Half-Elf, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  4. #4
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Dang I made this thread in response Highest Unarmed damage possible being a fun experiment

    ALthough to be fair people didn't really read the title correctly as they just assumed ROgue 20 without even trying to calculate other source of SA like Ninja Spy, Druid,Half-Elf, etc.
    This is too easy though, 15 or 16 Rogue 8d6, 4 monk Ninja Spy 4d6, Halfling 3d6, Epic SA feat 3d6
    18d6 or 18-108 damage
    the rest is available to any build/class combo (ED stuff, gear)

  5. #5
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    This is too easy though, 15 or 16 Rogue 8d6, 4 monk Ninja Spy 4d6, Halfling 3d6, Epic SA feat 3d6
    18d6 or 18-108 damage
    the rest is available to any build/class combo (ED stuff, gear)
    Ah boo that's boring Unarmed damage was much more fun. Note: You should be able to get one more with a single Ranger Lvl from DWS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

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    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Ah boo that's boring Unarmed damage was much more fun. Note: You should be able to get one more with a single Ranger Lvl from DWS.
    The problem with sneak attack is simple: You're not gonna get any higher than a Pure Rogue.

    That being said though, MAXIMIZING your sneak attack damage is a different story. 17 Rogue, 2 Fighter 1 Monk full wis build taking every ounce of sneak attack you can get and then stunning your opponents constantly? Easy to get another 50-160% damage per hit while also attacking 10% faster.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    The problem with sneak attack is simple: You're not gonna get any higher than a Pure Rogue.
    I was going to argue, but its actually true. The guys before me almost had it right, but forgot 1 Rgr for 2 more sneak die in Deepwoods (core, and Stealthy 3/3). Also, the Monk sneak die enhancements shouldn't stack with the identical ones from Rogue Assassin, so there's no point in taking Monk just for the sneak die.

    That being said, the Rogue Assassin capstone grants you +4 Sneak die, which is more than you get from any splash. So a pure rogue gets 10 from levels, 4 from enhancements, 4 from capstone, 3 from racial, 3 from epic, for 24 altogether.
    Last edited by droid327; 09-11-2013 at 09:59 PM.

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    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    This is too easy though, 15 or 16 Rogue 8d6, 4 monk Ninja Spy 4d6, Halfling 3d6, Epic SA feat 3d6
    18d6 or 18-108 damage
    the rest is available to any build/class combo (ED stuff, gear)
    Pure rogue offers more. I don't think you can get more SA by multi-classing.

    10d6 - 19 rogue
    4d6 - 4 ranks of Assassin Sneak Attack Training
    4d6 - Deadly Shadow Assassin capstone (requires 20 rogue): equivalent to splashing monk and using 22 AP to get Sneak Attack Training 4
    3d6 - Halfling Guile 3
    21d6+epic stuff

    Actually...you could go 1 monk/1 ranger to gain +1d6 SA over a pure rogue...lose 1d6 from dropping to rogue 18, and 4d6 from the capstone, then pick up Sneak Attack Training 4 in Ninja Spy for 4d6, the first core rank of Deepwood Stalker for 1d6, and rank 3 of Stealthy for another 1d6. Total, you lose 5d6 and gain 6d6. I think that's the best you're going to get, though it's at a rather steep cost, even if you want other stuff out of monk and ranger.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Actually...you could go 1 monk/1 ranger to gain +1d6 SA over a pure rogue...lose 1d6 from dropping to rogue 18, and 4d6 from the capstone, then pick up Sneak Attack Training 4 in Ninja Spy for 4d6, the first core rank of Deepwood Stalker for 1d6, and rank 3 of Stealthy for another 1d6. Total, you lose 5d6 and gain 6d6. I think that's the best you're going to get, though it's at a rather steep cost, even if you want other stuff out of monk and ranger.
    1 monk/1 rgr wouldn't let you pick up 4 tiers of SA Training in Ninja Spy.

  10. #10
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    1 monk/1 rgr wouldn't let you pick up 4 tiers of SA Training in Ninja Spy.
    Oh, true. I forgot that each tier of the class enhancements require another level in the class.

    So, pure rogue wins hands down.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  11. #11
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Ah boo that's boring Unarmed damage was much more fun. Note: You should be able to get one more with a single Ranger Lvl from DWS.
    LOL now that's why these threads are fun, because I totally didn't think about Ranger... In fact there's TWO MORE there as "stealthy" (tier 1) gives another sneak die at rank 3... so 2d6 added. Hmmm lots more synergy if you drop another rogue level and add a little more ranger.

    Drop to 13 Rogue (minus 1d6) 4 Monk 3 Ranger, the 3rd DWS core is another 1d6... so you give up 1d6 and get it back, but you also get 2 more ranger levels, and tier 3 ranger trees, TWF feat for free, Dex to damage with weapon finesse, but the "jewel in the crown":

    150% "faster sneaking" 50% from rogue 50% from monk and 50% from Ranger, you will sneak faster than most melee's run... Might have just come up with my 16th alt...

  12. #12
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I was going to argue, but its actually true. The guys before me almost had it right, but forgot 1 Rgr for 2 more sneak die in Deepwoods (core, and Stealthy 3/3). Also, the Monk sneak die enhancements shouldn't stack with the identical ones from Rogue Assassin, so there's no point in taking Monk just for the sneak die.

    That being said, the Rogue Assassin capstone grants you +4 Sneak die, which is more than you get from any splash. So a pure rogue gets 10 from levels, 4 from enhancements, 4 from capstone, 3 from racial, 3 from epic, for 24 altogether.
    Yep forgot all about the capstone... shows you how much attention I pay to pure classing

    OTOH at what point do we start looking at giving up a Capstone in favor of possibly getting more sneak ATTACKS as opposed to dice.

    It would be interesting to know if Sneak training doesn't stack... an aweful lot of the enhancement pass was intentionally made to stack.

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    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Yep forgot all about the capstone... shows you how much attention I pay to pure classing

    OTOH at what point do we start looking at giving up a Capstone in favor of possibly getting more sneak ATTACKS as opposed to dice.

    It would be interesting to know if Sneak training doesn't stack... an aweful lot of the enhancement pass was intentionally made to stack.
    Far as I can tell it stacks. At least in the tool tip on my rogue it goes up by 1 when I add 1d6 from Ninja.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    Far as I can tell it stacks. At least in the tool tip on my rogue it goes up by 1 when I add 1d6 from Ninja.
    Huh, really? And you have the same tier in Assassin trained as well?

    Well in that case, 15 Rogue/4 Monk/1 Rgr gives you 8 from Rogue levels, 4 from Monk, 4 from Assassin, 2 from Rgr, 3 Racial 3 Epic = 24, the same as a pure Rogue, so two alternative pathways to the same theoretical max.

  15. #15
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    Far as I can tell it stacks. At least in the tool tip on my rogue it goes up by 1 when I add 1d6 from Ninja.
    Wait...there's a tool tip that tells us how much SA we have in total..WHERE!?! I must know
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  16. #16
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Huh, really? And you have the same tier in Assassin trained as well?

    Well in that case, 15 Rogue/4 Monk/1 Rgr gives you 8 from Rogue levels, 4 from Monk, 4 from Assassin, 2 from Rgr, 3 Racial 3 Epic = 24, the same as a pure Rogue, so two alternative pathways to the same theoretical max.
    Right, it just depends what you want, and whether you want to spend so much AP in Ninja Spy to break even on SA dice. It also depends on whether you want your rogue DCs (Assassinate) to be relevant or not.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Wait...there's a tool tip that tells us how much SA we have in total..WHERE!?! I must know
    It's in the Feats list called Sneak Attack. Hover over it to see your total SA bonus including any enhancements you might have. However this entry ONLY appears if you have actual rogue levels. If you dont have rogue levels but still have SA from monk/ranger/halfling enhancements it won't show up.

  18. #18
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    If you were going for assassinate then pure. And jack int. SA dmg wise im pretty sure a pure is gonna get the most. However using that SA dmg at a constant is a whole other call game. For that, stunning fist is just flippn awesome. But again that build is more of a 2 weapon dmg dealer then an assassination. Mainly wraps, with switching up to short swords (ninja) for boss situations here and there. (I like the citw ones)

    But as for the question of highest possible thats a pure rog. Can't remember if any of the races add to sa die. I do know that a helf gets a second bluff though. And forcing SA any way possible is always nice. It ain't no good unless you see it's numbers every. single. Hit.
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    Community Member thegreatneil's Avatar
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    Default or something like that

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    Last edited by thegreatneil; 09-12-2013 at 03:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    Can't remember if any of the races add to sa die. I do know that a helf gets a second bluff though. And forcing SA any way possible is always nice. It ain't no good unless you see it's numbers every. single. Hit.
    Halfling adds to SA dice.

    And for making sure you get those SA as much as possible, dual wield Deception weapons while wearing Golden Guile (Improved Deception, they stack). Mobs keep spinning around so good CC as well.

    If you were to go 14 Rogue / 6 Ranger you would only loose the capstone. Rogue 20->14 looses 3d6 SA, but Ranger 6 gains 3d6 SA in enhancements. In exchange for this you get either a melee or ranged auto-bluff skill that automatically makes all your attacks do sneak attack damage for 4s with only 6s cd. I personally love this skill, highly recommended.
    Last edited by Rhaphael; 09-12-2013 at 04:40 AM.

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