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  1. #1
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Default Is THF on a SD Pally event worth it?

    So, after the EP, I went pure SD on my pally, and played around with the feats so that I could get THF.

    It is, at best, “meh.” I dropped Khopesh for it. I’ve tried Greatswords, Greataxes, and thinking about Falcions. The reality is that with a Scimitar, it seems that I’m pulling better numbers overall and staying S&B. Seeing that my DPS is really out the window anyways with the SD line, I’m kinda wondering if I should just LR and use that THF feat somewhere else.

    My feat layout includes (and I’m trying to do this from memory, so bear with me):
    Shield Mastery,
    Improved Shield Mastery,
    Two-handed Fighting,
    Weapon Focus – Slashing,
    Toughness,
    Tower Shield Proficiency,
    Empower Healing Spell,
    The two feats for Unyielding Sentinel,
    Either Power Critical or Improved Critical.
    The Unyielding Sentinel feats give me a boost to longswords, but also that “fixes everything” heal ability that I sometimes use. Tower shield is kind of a “must have” feat for a tank, as are the shield feats, though Improved Shield Mastery is up for debate. Power Critical / Improved Critical is another “must have” as my crits would completely suck without it, and Empower Healing is going to one of those cemented into my build.

    So, in the end my sacrificial feats are Toughness, Two Handed Fighting, Improved Shield Mastery, and the two feats for Unyielding Sentinel. The way I look at it: I either dump that extra healing and the longsword bonus, or I dump Two Handed Fighting.

    So I thought I’d leave it up to the stat magicians. Here are my questions:

    1) Will using falcions in my current build show any improvement over greatswords and greataxes?

    2) How much will dumping a couple of my feats and adding maybe GTHF and/or PA get me over what I have with a Scimitar and Shield?


    3) Do I actually need Improved Shield Mastery for the PRR and double-strike (I’m standing at 114 PRR at lvl 20 just starting my EDs, and shooting for a PDK armor at the moment), or can I dump that to pick up GTHF feat.

    4) Will adding one feat to somehow improve my THF even make that much of a difference? I mean, can I double my DPS without having to throw out a lot of stuff that works very well defensively, or am I making an investment for something less than a 20% increase?

    If you’re going to reply, please try to keep the discussion narrowed to the following constraints:

    1) Don’t tell me to splash. I want to stay pure. I’m not interested in multi-classing.

    2) Unless an ED fixes this issue altogether, keep it limited to feats.\


    3) I have a human pally, I’m going to stay a human pally for the time being. Don’t tell me to change races.

    4) Stick to SD. I don’t want to hear about the virtues of KotC / HotD.


    5) I want to stay a tank. Don’t tell me about how there is no need for tanks at endgame. I don’t care.

    Right now, after just turning lvl 20, without EDs I’m standing at a 75 AC, 114 PRR, and 850+ HP in-stance. I’ve taken out the dragon in the King’s Forest without much of a challenge (it’d be nice if the dragon would have stood still while I kill him or her, but that’s another issue altogether). It takes a long time to beat stuff down, but I have this +4 Wounding Scimitar of (CON) Poison – which is a lvl 16 weapon BTW – I kinda go through mobs like a hot knife through cold butter. They beat on me, I don’t take much if any damage, while I go through one guy after another taking them out. It works, but I’d like to see if I can somehow do better.

    P.S. The most HP I lose in most encounters is when I switch from one weapons set to the other. So It’d be nice if THE DEVS FIXED THIS ISSUE!!!!

    But I’m not bitter…

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    But I’m not bitter…
    You play a paladin, you should be!

    EDIT: read your post wrong, below is the correct reply . . .

    THFing is better than S&B at this time. With a good weapon and the cleaves the damage can get tolerable.

    Oh, and the best piece of equipment for any paladin to become a useful DPS build can be had for 20 epic tokens, a True Heart of Wood.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 09-11-2013 at 12:16 PM.

  3. #3
    Community Member DeKalbSun's Avatar
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    I play a pure pally and still switch to THF to really do damage. I use Skybreaker or my GS greataxe. For one handed I'm still using Oathblade. Usually i switch to onehanded when defense is a priority. Hopefully i can find something better than the Oathblade soon and I'll stay onehanded, but sacrificing 200 Hp to switch to 2HF seems to be worth it a lot of times to get the extra damage. I also really like the glanceing blows it produces. I just havent been able to get the same damage as a onehander. (As a side note I built for 2HF before enhancement pass and havent LR'd yet as I'm gonna TR soon and am saving the Heart of Wood.)
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    5) I want to stay a tank. Don’t tell me about how there is no need for tanks at endgame. I don’t care.
    Then stay S&B. Simple as that. Unless you go in all the way, with Cleave/GC, THF/ITHF/GTHF, and PA, you're just half-arsing it. PA gives you 2x bonus with THF, and glancing blows are negligible unless you invest in the full THF line. And, as a pure Paladin, your toolbox of attacks is limited without taking Cleave/GC - you'll just be standing, auto-attacking for the most part without them. And, really, massive damage AOEs is kinda the draw of THF in the first place.

    You're either DPS or tank. You cant kinda dabble in both, or you wont be effective at either. You can always just carry around a good Greataxe and bust it out whenever you absolutely don't need the defense and just want a little extra DPS over your scimitar, but don't invest any feats in what's basically just "cleanup mode"

    Conversely, if you change your mind and do want to give up shields altogether, then yes, drop SM/ISM and Tower Shields, and also Weapon Focus, which is pointless except as a prereq for Kenseis. Your 8 feats should be THFx3, IC:Slash, Cleave/GC, Emp Heal, and then one more...Toughness if you want to take Epic Toughness, or else maybe Magical Training for Echoes, extra SP, and I think it grants +5% Crit which benefits your heals, or maybe Dodge just for the 3%.

    Oh and make sure you have IC:Slashing and not Power Crit, in either case. There's a big difference
    Last edited by droid327; 09-11-2013 at 01:07 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    1) Don’t tell me

    2) keep it limited to feats.\

    3) Don’t tell me to change races.

    4) I don’t want to hear

    5) Don’t tell me I don’t care.
    Okay working within the confines of what you will and mostly wont do:

    1) Drop weapon focus and power critical

    Neither feat is worth a feat slot without it being a prerequisite to something better (like Weapon focus for Kensei). With a greataxe power critical is a 6 whole extra damage on a 19-20 (assuming you take improved crit slashing which you very much should.

    2) the only way to get marginally acceptable DPS on a S&B Pali is with Cleaves, Cleave animation is MUCH faster in S&B than for other combat styles. Cleaves hit a very generous AOE with +1W and +2W full attacks... not glancing blows, full damage to each and every mob including crits. You should then twist in Lay waste and Momentum swing ED if you don't actually use the whole ED (which is highly recomended for Headmans chop and Devastating critical at least using this ED when you're not going to be pure tanking).

    3) You must be Human and you are feat starved Pure pali don't waste feats on an exotic or specific weapon, so find the weapon "Axe of Adaxus" on the AH there are ML12 all the way up to ML25 versions or loot it from giant hold. Slot a ruby of devotion in it for your self heals.

    4) Forget about swapping out to THF that worked before the pass, after the pass that's no longer really worth wild, especially when you insist on only using S&B with SD (you wont have smites that are good). and you're taking ALL the AP's in it because you refuse to use any KOTC/HOTD (I don't understand why but it's your flavor toon so you can do what you want, PS not even Divine Might and Smiting lines? Man are you crippling your already very gimpy Pali)

    4b) go all in on S&B, that means Human fighting style for S&B (gives shield AC bonus IIRC), and ignore THF, that also means both Shield mastery feats, and every AP you have since you refuse to use the other Pali tree at all.

    5) are you sure you can spend 80 AP's just in the SD tree (and Human?) whatever it's your toon.

    6) Power attack is non-optional, CLeave and Greater Cleave are non optional you will love how much your DPS goes up with these three feats. Overwleming critical is opened up by these three, you will love swinging an Axe of Adaxus with a 19-20 X5 crit profile

    7) you will love swinging Axe of Adaxus with a 19-20 X6 crit profile (Legendary Dread: Devastating Critical)

    8) you will giggle like a school girl when all your crits are 19-20 X7 (LD: Headmans chop)

    9) then you will Greater cleave (+2W) or Lay waste (+5W) get multiple X7 crits and you will have to go clean yourself up

    Summery go all in S&B but do it right, with all that SD defensiveness you really don't need Unyielding Sentential ED and you can twist what's really good in it into your build while using LD. You will do shockingly good DPS compared to what you are used to.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  6. #6
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post

    2) the only way to get marginally acceptable DPS on a S&B Pali is with Cleaves, Cleave animation is MUCH faster in S&B than for other combat styles. Cleaves hit a very generous AOE with +1W and +2W full attacks... not glancing blows, full damage to each and every mob including crits. You should then twist in Lay waste and Momentum swing ED if you don't actually use the whole ED (which is highly recomended for Headmans chop and Devastating critical at least using this ED when you're not going to be pure tanking).
    That’s information that is really good to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    3) You must be Human and you are feat starved Pure pali don't waste feats on an exotic or specific weapon, so find the weapon "Axe of Adaxus" on the AH there are ML12 all the way up to ML25 versions or loot it from giant hold. Slot a ruby of devotion in it for your self heals.
    Ok, just a comment on this.

    Before the EP, I went with Khopesh because of the crit profile, and so on. I was WHOLLY UNDERWHELMED by the use of that type of weapon for my toon. It seemed to me that was getting numbers as good, of not better with scimitars even though I had no racial bonuses for them. It seems to me – and this is just passive observation, mind you – that scimitars crit more often with just as much damage as an equivalent Khopesh. Am I wrong on this, or has someone else had the same experience?

    As for the axe, I’ve never been much of an axe user, however I’ve gotten a couple of axes from random loot and I’ve been looking at their stats which look fairly impressive. So this is a direction I might go.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    4) Forget about swapping out to THF that worked before the pass, after the pass that's no longer really worth wild, especially when you insist on only using S&B with SD (you wont have smites that are good). and you're taking ALL the AP's in it because you refuse to use any KOTC/HOTD (I don't understand why but it's your flavor toon so you can do what you want, PS not even Divine Might and Smiting lines? Man are you crippling your already very gimpy Pali)

    4b) go all in on S&B, that means Human fighting style for S&B (gives shield AC bonus IIRC), and ignore THF, that also means both Shield mastery feats, and every AP you have since you refuse to use the other Pali tree at all.

    5) are you sure you can spend 80 AP's just in the SD tree (and Human?) whatever it's your toon.
    First, I wanted a tank, so I’m sticking with a pure Tank build to play…well…a tank. Full SD is kinda the best option. So if I go that route, after doing some experimentation on Lammania, I discovered that I could get healing amp (very nice for a tank build) with the human tree, or smites with the KotC/HotD tree, but not both. So I went the healing amp route. It is one of those situations where you gotta pick a direction and go, so I did.

    I’m not refusing to use a tree, its just that the investment required to do one or the other is a little steep no matter which way you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    6) Power attack is non-optional, CLeave and Greater Cleave are non optional you will love how much your DPS goes up with these three feats. Overwleming critical is opened up by these three, you will love swinging an Axe of Adaxus with a 19-20 X5 crit profile

    7) you will love swinging Axe of Adaxus with a 19-20 X6 crit profile (Legendary Dread: Devastating Critical)

    8) you will giggle like a school girl when all your crits are 19-20 X7 (LD: Headmans chop)

    9) then you will Greater cleave (+2W) or Lay waste (+5W) get multiple X7 crits and you will have to go clean yourself up

    Summery go all in S&B but do it right, with all that SD defensiveness you really don't need Unyielding Sentential ED and you can twist what's really good in it into your build while using LD. You will do shockingly good DPS compared to what you are used to.
    Now that’s a plan that I’m kinda looking for.

    Pre-EH I went with PA and wasn’t seeing any real measurable results. However, I stopped short of Cleave (and I didn’t know about that little tidbit that cleave on S&B is faster). So, I’ll most likely be all over that.

  7. #7
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    You're either DPS or tank. You cant kinda dabble in both, or you wont be effective at either. You can always just carry around a good Greataxe and bust it out whenever you absolutely don't need the defense and just want a little extra DPS over your scimitar, but don't invest any feats in what's basically just "cleanup mode"
    You know, I’ve found that unless you make a decent investment in THF besides a single feat, it appears that you actually do LESS damage with a Greataxe than a scimitar. Hence the purpose of this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Oh and make sure you have IC:Slashing and not Power Crit, in either case. There's a big difference
    Will do. I know I have a crit feat, I just can’t remember the specific one I selected.

  8. #8
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Hey there bsquishwizzy,

    Here are my thoughts:

    Enhancements
    OP, to your point about only wanting to buy in the SD enhancement, I hear you. I knew there would be a strong desire among some people to just buy in the SD line, and recommended to the developers (in detail) that they put Divine Might, Exhalted Smite, Divine Sacrifice in the SD tree. However it is what it is, and I think it's a mistake to not buy some DPS enhancements from the Knight tree. If you refuse, that's fine, but you're giving up some easy to get DPS. For example, it's now super easy to max out exhalted smite. Using a scimitar and improved crit, I'm getting critical smites on a roll of 13 or higher (i.e. 40% of the time), and for a reasonable amount of damage. Exhalted Smite is finally useful!

    Feats
    As for your feats, I would 100% recommend picking up power attack, cleave, great cleave and overwhelming critical. These are just awesome and will really help you out. I'd recommend the following heroic feats:

    Human - Power Attack
    1 - Cleave
    3 - Shield Mastery
    6 - Great Cleave
    9 - Improved Crit - Slashing
    12 - Improved Shield Mastery
    15 - Choice
    18 - Choice

    There are a lot of contenders for the "choice" feats:
    -Empower Healing
    -Quicken
    -SF-UMD
    -Improved Shield Bashing
    -Tower Shield
    -Combat Expertise

    I wouldn't bother with weapon focus or power critical as these don't give you that much. Also, if you have been building up your UMD, then the tower shield feat is only for convenience. You can buy Master's Touch scrolls in the portable hole which will give you proficiency. The pain is that you have to remember to cast it upon entering a quest, explorer area, or after resting. Just a suggestion on how to save yourself a feat.

    THF vs. S&B
    It's a lot less optimal to go THF than it used to be, because you will lose your +6 to strength from greater sacred defense enhancement, as well as doublestrike from the shield mastery lines. Still if you have power attack turned on and the monster's you're up against doesn't attack your AC it probably makes more sense to go THF. For example, I use a THF weapon against elementals.

    Answers to Questions
    1) Will using falcions in my current build show any improvement over greatswords and greataxes?
    Answer: If you buy into the Knight line for exhalted smite and divine sacrifice, then Falchions will be better. If you don't, then I would go with a greataxe for the crit multiplier. Honestly though, you probably won't notice a huge difference in game. The weapon effects will probably be more noticeable.

    2) How much will dumping a couple of my feats and adding maybe GTHF and/or PA get me over what I have with a Scimitar and Shield?
    Answer: Please see my feat least above. Most of the time on my Paladin tank I use scimitar and shield along with power attack, cleave, great cleave. I wouldn't bother with the THF chain unless you're going to use a bastard sword for the extra splash damage. However that's too feat intensive IMHO on a pure Paladin build.

    3) Do I actually need Improved Shield Mastery for the PRR and double-strike (I’m standing at 114 PRR at lvl 20 just starting my EDs, and shooting for a PDK armor at the moment), or can I dump that to pick up GTHF feat.
    Answer: If you're going to be in S&B mode most of the time, 100% pick up improved shield mastery! That gets you an extra 5% double strike all of the time. The extra PRR is a bonus.

    4) Will adding one feat to somehow improve my THF even make that much of a difference? I mean, can I double my DPS without having to throw out a lot of stuff that works very well defensively, or am I making an investment for something less than a 20% increase?
    Answer: Personally I'm not a big fan of the THF line on a tank, unless you're going to use bastard swords or dwarven axes for the extra splash damage. Because greater sacred defense benefits going S&B, I would fight in S&B most of the time. If you run with power attack on, below is a comparison of the THF vs. S&B benefits:
    -In THF mode you get: +0 to hit / +10 to damage, plus extra base weapon damage for a THF weapon
    -In S&B mode: +3 to hit / +8 to damage, in addition to +8% doublestrike from improved shield mastery

    There are a lot of other factors that go into calculating the DPS difference, but this a quick comparison. Obviously if you had the THF feats you need would add splash damage in, for example.

    Hope this helps!
    Ralmeth
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  9. #9
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Setting aside whether or not pure pally S&B tanks are a good idea, here are my thoughts:

    Feats: at a minimum you need Shield Mastery & ISM for the PRR & doublestrike; and Power Atk & Improved Crit (unless using only keen weapons like Oathblade or Balizarde) for DPS. That leaves 7 feats (4 heroic + 3 epic) to spread between:
    • AoE attacks: Cleave + Great Cleave, with the intention of taking Overwhelming Crit, Lay Waste, and Momentum Swing when you get to epics.
    • Glancing blows: THF chain + b.sword or d.axe prof. The THF chain will also improve your 2H DPS. OTOH, if you plan to fight only S&B with weapons which don't benefit from glancing blows (e.g., longswords, scimitars, rapiers), you don't need these feats; but you're also limiting your DPS that way.
    • Survivability: Toughness, maybe Dodge or Combat Expertise (more for the extra PRR from Imp CE than the AC), Epic DR
    • Self-healing: Quicken+Max and/or Emp Heal, particularly if you Twist in Rejuv Cocoon someday


    So a couple possible feat combos:
    • DPS-focused, S&B backloaded: Power Atk (1), Cleave (1), THF (3), GC (6), IC:Slash (9), ITHF (12), GTHF (15), SM (18), OC (21), ISM (24), b.sword (27)
    • Survivability-focused, S&B-only (no glancing blows): Power Atk (1), Cleave (1), SM (3), GC (6), ISM (9), IC:Slash (12), Toughness (15), Quicken (18), Emp Heal (21), OC (24), Epic DR (27)


    You get the idea: making a pure pally tank is about figuring out what your focus will be and picking the feats which provide the most bang-for-the-buck towards those goals.

    KotC: I would spend at least 16-18 APs here; that gets you max Divine Might, the first tier of Exalted Smite & Divine Sacrifice, a couple core enhs for extra dmg vs evil, and +10% heal amp, if I'm adding right. 22 APs gets you +20% heal amp, but whether you can afford it depends largely on how many APs you want for human tree.

    Human tree: Dmg Boost, Adaptability to even out your stats, Action Surge, heal amp, Heroism - almost everything here is on your wishlist.

    Since you just hit lvl 20, I would suggest maybe doing some Commendation farming to pick up PDK set + Oathblade. Provides a lot of what you need for not a lot of effort, relatively speaking (+9 STR, +9 CON, Heavy Fort, SFL, Intim +15, 30% heal amp, etc.). Add in Ring of the Stalker or Drow Smoke Goggles for Seeker+Manslayer.

  10. #10
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    Scimmy will work too, but will take a big hit in damage numbers and can't get "headmans chop" to make up for that is just crits more often. For a Scimmy I recommend Royal Scimitar also from GH, also comes in ML12 to ML25 versions available on the AH for not much plat. It has Bloodletter which is a nice boost to crit numbers (folded into base damage, to it's all one big number). And also a nice crit profile though obviously trading X4 base multiplier for more range. Base is 18-20 X2 which ends up as 15-18 X2 and 19-20 X4

    There's also the exceptional Deathnip, though it has no "headmans chop" option. A tome of legend turn in (personally I like it better than Adaxus because it has Heartseeker (see comment about bloodletter) on it which makes for amazing crits). This option is a base 19-20 range and X4, with improved crit pierce you get 17-20 X4, with overwelming crit and devastating crit you get: 17-18 X4 19-20 X6. This is my personal choice for a non THF S&B (which is all of my S&B's after the pass made having a THF option no longer a very synergistic idea) such as my Bard and Pali.

    The other option that almost no one seems to know about but actually benefits from a tier 6 Legendary dread ability (Pulverizer ) is the Morningstar "Coronation" it is almost a compromise of all three options. It has the same crit profile as a Khopesh (without needing to burn a feat) has both "pierce and blunt" damage types (for bypassing mob DR) like a real D&D morningstar should (unlike any other DDO morningstar). it has purple and red slots and it comes with Ribcracker (see above comments on Bloodletter and Heartseeker). It is 18-20 Base and X3 crits, now I'm not sure if Pulverizer works the same way that Kensei crit range improvement works (the expanded range is added before improved critical doubles it, or not) but if it works the same as Kensei, Pulverizer makes this 17-20 and improved crit doubles this to an amazing 13-18 X3 19-20 X5. (or it's 14-18 X3 if it doesn't add like Kensei but only adds after)

    Honestly I believe Deathnip is the best S&B weapon in the game, as it has nearly all of Adaxus's benefits (no special feats) but gives up 19-20 X7 and some base damage for 19-20 X6 AND 17-18 X4 plus Heartseeker (also +10 seeker is really nice because you don't need to slot it in your gear).
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I could get healing amp (very nice for a tank build) with the human tree, or smites with the KotC/HotD tree, but not both. So I went the healing amp route. It is one of those situations where you gotta pick a direction and go, so I did.
    Alternately you could get both healing amp and smites in the KotC tree, along with +damage to all evil mobs from the core abilities.

  12. #12
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    My main is a pure human pally. I, too, want it to remain pure.

    Here's to remaining a pure pally. *cheer*

    I'm mostly SD (took smites, some healing amp, couple racials...)

    I've been S&B with fairly decent dwarven axes whipping out a Gaxe (eaga) when I want a little punch. Still looking for a better one hander than my current fairly spiffy dwarven axe. (I wonder if I have an Adaxus somewhere...)

    I'm reading this thread and fascinated..learning a lot.

    But I don't want to be forced to tank and classified as "only a tank", thats one reason I left another MMO, if they didn't need a tank they didn't take me. If they did, and something went wrong, I caught all the ****.

    A design mistake on Turbine's part if you ask me.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Alternately you could get both healing amp and smites in the KotC tree, along with +damage to all evil mobs from the core abilities.
    I agree with LSD, we don't agree a lot but we're both passionate about trying to make Pali's better. Personally I'm either a glutton for punishment or I like a challenge, but I've been trying to make more and more viable S&B characters for years now. I always root for the underdog too.

    I have 4 fully geared and mostly ED'ed S&B characters among my 15 alts and my Pali's have been respecced multiple times for DPS reasons. S&B currently is far more viable than it's ever been, and the nerf to Defensive stances of requiring a shield "by proxy" has buffed S&B because a SD Pali can no longer get +6 STR for his greataxe swings at the same time that they added some new S&B stuff in the top tiers of the defender trees... So if you fully invest "all in" on S&B it's going to be better to just stay in S&B mode and use the fast cleaves (Oh man I wish Whirlwind attack was faster in S&B mode, but I can tell you (that's how far I've gone respeccing lol yes Dodge, Mobility, spring attack, CE, whirlwind on a Pali ) from experience that it doesn't. The path to "acceptable" S&B DPS (which is to say much better than most people expect it to be, these days) is PA/Cleave/Greater/Lay Waste + one shot attacks like Smite/Momentum swing (also Intolerant blows is a great twist 12 secs of +1W and + 1000% threat will help make your cleaves Amazeballs (for S&B) it has a short cooldown and should be up for any serious fight) while doing everything you can to make your Shield work for your DPS (Both shield feats are mandatory for double strike) lots of double strike for when the one shot attacks and cleaves are on cooldown.

    I really recommend you find enough points to invest in Exulted smites and Divine Might. Some of the things you're taking in the SD tree are really really not worth the investment (just like Weapon focus and power critical were not worth the investment). I will say though that the upper tier stuff really helps improve S&B even further. 45-50 points in SD and say 25 in human (also a lot) still leaves 5-10 AP's for KOTC. Honestly you really should only have about a max of 16 points in the human tree. you could get away with less and still get all three heal amp boosts. Slim those down a little more (drop some of those saves boosts/saves aura's as you already have great saves) shave a few points, say 45 in SD and 20 in Human (which is still a lot in a race tree at least 4 more AP's than I could possibly see spending unless you have dragon marks) leaving 15-20 AP's for KOTC. now lets see what we can buy with those:
    5 AP gets you to tier 2 take: 1 core 2 Extra Smites 2 Extra Turns (you use turns for a lot of stuff besides turning, including divine might and some ED stuff later so extra turns are good)
    Tier 2:
    11 AP (6 more spent) gets you all three tiers of Divine Might (wear CHA gear to get to 30-ish Charisma) and opens tier three up
    Tier 3:
    Exulted Smite 3 (6 AP's) and STR or CON (2AP's) gets you to 19 AP spent now for a little more investment in this tree (find some more to shave out of Human and SD trees) you can have: 2 more points +1 more CON or STR, 2 more points +10% more heal amp... and Divine Sacrifice for 3 more AP's (gives light damage and increases crit multi one shot attack a staple of Pali DPS). Not to mention the core abilities that give +1d6 to all evil mobs not just undead or fiends. you could easilly end up with Exulted smites (remember your best DPS is cleaves and every one shot attack you can manage) Divine Sacrifices, Divine Might, +2 STR and 2d6 extra damage to "evil". for 20-ish AP's

    All that said, Turbine really did no favors to Pali's in general S&B or otherwise... the SD tree is easily one of the most expensive in the whole pass, and no where in the pass is it MORE painful that they put generic core class enhancements into trees and locked them behind spending requirements than the Pali trees... It's even worse for a Dwarven Pali, who has WAY more than 20 AP's worth of race spending that is desirable. I can get everything in the human tree I care about for 16 AP's pretty much (not going to that last tier of hamp)
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-11-2013 at 05:44 PM.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You know, I’ve found that unless you make a decent investment in THF besides a single feat, it appears that you actually do LESS damage with a Greataxe than a scimitar. Hence the purpose of this thread.
    That, specifically, is going to depend a lot on WHICH Scimitar and Greataxe you're talking about. With only an IC: Slashing feat affecting either, you're talking 1d6,30%/x2 vs 1d12,10%/x3. Lets just ballpark your damage bonus as +20. The Scim is going to give you 30.55 DPH, the Greataxe 31.8, so yes they're very comparable (with Scim getting better with more damage bonus) in terms of base damage, before affixes.

    The difference is that there are much fewer good Scimitars, while you can get even relatively basic-to-acquire axes like eAntique or Elemental Axe of Fire that will give you better DPS than any lootgen scimitar. Maybe a Calomel Scimitar or eRoyal would be comparable, though, to be fair.

  15. #15

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    Balizarde is a great one hander and while it is pierce it does not require IC:P
    +7->+8
    2.5[1d8]
    15-20x3 keen
    Hemoraging->phlem
    +4ac
    +4 saves
    +2 luck saves and skills


    can get a red slot on it
    Last edited by Rathic; 09-11-2013 at 09:23 PM.
    Formerly Rathic of harvestgain

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Honestly I believe Deathnip is the best S&B weapon in the game, as it has nearly all of Adaxus's benefits (no special feats) but gives up 19-20 X7 and some base damage for 19-20 X6 AND 17-18 X4 plus Heartseeker (also +10 seeker is really nice because you don't need to slot it in your gear).
    Is Deathnip still viable in epics? It just seems...odd to use a ML:14 weapon as your primary, esp. one with such relatively low base dmg (1.5[d6]).

  17. #17
    Community Member giftie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Is Deathnip still viable in epics? It just seems...odd to use a ML:14 weapon as your primary, esp. one with such relatively low base dmg (1.5[d6]).
    Viable perhaps, but far from optimal. As you say, the low base damage really hurts. The Heartseeker bonus works out to about 10 damage/hit, which is less than the difference in average base damage between Deadnip and Axe of Adaxus. The heartseeker bonus is added after multiplication, meaning the Axe will start pulling ahead at pretty low STR numbers. Work in Improved Power Attack, Headsman's Chop, Cleaves and other +W attacks, and Deathnip never really comes close.

    Having said that, I strongly recommend Duergar Waraxe. The crit profile and base damage is really nice - especially if you play in LD (17-18 x 3 and 19-20 x 6 compared to 19-20 x 7 for Adaxus). Unlike Adaxus it requires a feat, but it does produce glancing blows, and is generally much easier and cheaper to obtain.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Is Deathnip still viable in epics? It just seems...odd to use a ML:14 weapon as your primary, esp. one with such relatively low base dmg (1.5[d6]).
    17-20X4 is a big range with a big multiplier, bump that up to X6 on a 19-20 and it scales wonderfully At higher levels Strength, Deadly, Seeker/Excp. Seeker and +W's from special attacks start to matter much more than the base damage, if you can multiply all of those more. Not much multiplies more than a Deathnip's 17-18X4 19-20X6 at least not Sword and Board/One handed and pure Pali (keep in mind this is very specific advice we're giving here)

    There are certainly weapons that going beat it in a calculation due to base damage and +W because of mob fortification and there are surely some raid weapons that outdo it overall for one handed, Adaxus is probably better "overall" because of it's elevated base and big die... but "seat of the pant" (which to me is what really matters most, as I trust my sense of fun, more than I care about what a calculator shows) Deathnips are just BA. You're getting almost the same Multiplier on a 19-20 as Adaxus X6 versus X7 (sans headmans chop as sadly there's no Piercing version of Headmans, or Pulverizer... probably for the same reason their isn't one for Slashing because their charts show Deathnips, eSoS and Khopeshe's spiking to above some threshold number at a higher rate than they like).
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by giftie View Post
    Viable perhaps, but far from optimal. As you say, the low base damage really hurts. The Heartseeker bonus works out to about 10 damage/hit, which is less than the difference in average base damage between Deadnip and Axe of Adaxus. The heartseeker bonus is added after multiplication, meaning the Axe will start pulling ahead at pretty low STR numbers. Work in Improved Power Attack, Headsman's Chop, Cleaves and other +W attacks, and Deathnip never really comes close.

    Having said that, I strongly recommend Duergar Waraxe. The crit profile and base damage is really nice - especially if you play in LD (17-18 x 3 and 19-20 x 6 compared to 19-20 x 7 for Adaxus). Unlike Adaxus it requires a feat, but it does produce glancing blows, and is generally much easier and cheaper to obtain.
    Actually the 17-18X4 that Adaxus doesn't have is why it scales so well, anything that raises STR numbers, Seeker, PA, Cleaves, +W attacks is multiplied by at least X4 twice as often as Adaxus. While the big 19-20 numbers are still very comparable. In any case critting that much more often (double the amount of Adaxus) especially while cleaving (where you will almost always get multiple big crit numbers flying around with a 17-20 range) it's just more fun. You can calculate and I'm sure Adaxus does more overall in a calc, but I've used both on the same build and it's not even close which one I'd rather use, I'll sum it up as One has slightly bigger peak numbers, the other has nearly as big peak numbers but crits twice as much. I agree about Duergar War Axe on a Dwarf build; but his character is Human and he's said this is non optional and feats are precious on any Pali let alone a pure.

    As noted this is very specific advice here, and shouldn't be construed as a "whats the best weapon in DDO" thread.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  20. #20
    Community Member giftie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can calculate and I'm sure Adaxus does more overall in a calc
    So... what you're saying is that Deathnip is viable but not optimal?

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I agree about Duergar War Axe on a Dwarf build; but his character is Human and he's said this is non optional and feats are precious on any Pali let alone a pure.
    Agreed, but as Unbongwah correctly pointed out above, THF chain and glancing blows is certainly one way to go if he's looking to do better damage. He suggested bastard sword, and I thought I'd at least mention the much neglected Duergar Waraxe as an alternative. You're not stuck with bastard swords and khopeshes just because you have a non-dwarf.

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