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  1. #1
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    Default How equipment *should* work

    I'm going to come right out and say it. I hate the D&D equipment system in general. I hate the DDO equipment system even more.

    Why?

    You remember that bit in Lord of the rings where Gimli is beating on Orcs with his keen greataxe but then switches to acid-spewing when the ogre showed up on account of their superior fortification? Or where Frodo traded in Sting and his mithril mail shirt for a really cool breast plate of negative level protection and vorpal shortsword?

    No, because it didn't happen. People got their gear and they stayed with their gear and gave their gear cool names. Generally, that's pretty much the rule in fantasy stories.

    Obviously this presents problems in D&D and DDO. Clearly, you can't have a first level character running around with an annihilating adamantine kama of superior heart-seeking one-shotting lvl 10 bosses left and right. Similarly, Davey Destructor the lvl 28 barbarian is not going to make much of an impression if he's lumbered with a flame-touched dagger.

    My solution would be weapons that improve with character level.

    This can either work intrinsically: You're 8th level, you know know enough about sword-wielding to unlock the keen-ness ability on your sword.

    Or it can work via augments: they already do work this way in a sense but are limited by the quality of the item itself. Not much point adding a lvl 16 augment to a level 2 item. Something you could do is have more augment slots become available as the user goes up in level.

    Or it could be a combination of both: more inherent powers and more and larger augment slots become available as the user gains levels.

    In this case acquiring items would, for the most part, occur at relatively low levels and instead of farming particular named items, you would be farming named augments with multiple effects and which combine to give set bonuses etc.

    This is a very different system from that in operation at the moment, and would obviously have a very different feel. I'm not suggesting Turbine should junk what they have and immediately go to this. This is entirely speculation.

    While I'm on the subject, having introduced augments the idea of having named items that are random agglomerations of nominally useful but practically useless abilities defeats the WHOLE purpose. How many people have farmed the seal of Dun'Robar only for it to drop in a junk configuration, +10 vertigo, +10 shatter, blah blah blah...? If you, the devs, can't decide what goes in those slots then leave them blank and let me pick the combination of augments I want. Ok, maybe make me farm the really nifty augments but at least don't saddle me with a WORTHLESS piece of junk in the meantime. Literally, you cannot give them away.

  2. #2
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    While dnd's system isnt ideal I absolutely hate your idea not everyone should have a weapon that improves as you level, thats what gear is for as to carrying multiple weapons in ddo vs lotr we have bags of holding they didnt.

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  3. #3
    2015 DDO Players Council FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    One of my characters has this - its a large guild slotted silver dwarven axe & i simply update the enchantments on it through cannith crafting every couple of levels
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

  4. #4
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    To do what you want to do you need the Rolemaster System... except that it is not available in any MMO.

    That's the only system I know where a LVL 1 Kobold can one shot a LVL 30 Paladin in full plate with a wooden arrow ( and a lot of luck ).

    That's also a system where there is no level restriction on items.
    ( though as it's RM there is an option where you have to "fight" the first time you take the item to be able to control the item powers... there's always an option in RM )
    On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    You remember that bit in Lord of the rings where Gimli is beating on Orcs with his keen greataxe but then switches to acid-spewing when the ogre showed up on account of their superior fortification? Or where Frodo traded in Sting and his mithril mail shirt for a really cool breast plate of negative level protection and vorpal shortsword?
    Actually, we DO see them doing that. Both in the Hobbit and in LotR nobody was unarmed before they got their spiffy stuff: they HAD weapons and armor (well, not Bilbo, as he was not an adventurer at all untill Gandalf made him one). But when they found some really good stuff in various treasure hoards (or had their magic sword repaired), they immediately started using them.
    The reason they didn't trade them in more often is simply that these where the top items in that campaign; compared to the average D&D campain, the world as described in the books is fairly low on magic, and Bilbo's or Frodo's chances to ever get anything better than a mithril shirt were pretty much non-existent. Whereas in DDO (and many D&D campaigns), a non-magical mithral armor is something you will soon either make magical through crafting, or trade in for something better: it's definitely not endgame material.

    What you want is pretty easy to emulate in D&D -in a home campaign. Severely limit acces to magic, automatically making feats more important, and occasionally have quests where things happen that improve (part of) the equipment your players already have: at level 1, Joe Fighter rescues the baron's heir, and is rewarded with a masterwork sword, the blade of a knight. After taking out a dangerous group of brigands, an old priest bestows the blessings of the gods on Joe, and his weapon becomes +1. Later on, having defeated a young red dragon, Joe finds that some of the beast's blood has melded with the blade, and it now burns those it wounds. And so on. Just look at what sort of weapon (or other magic item) you want to give out to your players, and instead of giving the item itself, invent a way to upgrade an item the PC already has with the extra power. Tim the Enchanter helps a dryad, and she infuses his staff with wood lore, so it grants him a +5 on Knowlede: nature. Bob the cleric puts to rest a cursed spirit, and it thanks him by bestowing his weapon with ghost touch. Etc. Etc.

    However, in DDO all of the above is pretty easy to abuse, since there is no actual DM, quests can be repeated endlessly, and farming out the ultimate item would be extremely easy. No need to debate putting item x, y, or z in your headslot: you just make one item that has all 3. And then stack on the rest of the alphabet. Not gonna happen

    Greetz,
    red Orm

  6. #6
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    To do what you want to do you need the Rolemaster System... except that it is not available in any MMO.

    That's the only system I know where a LVL 1 Kobold can one shot a LVL 30 Paladin in full plate with a wooden arrow ( and a lot of luck ).

    That's also a system where there is no level restriction on items.
    ( though as it's RM there is an option where you have to "fight" the first time you take the item to be able to control the item powers... there's always an option in RM )

    You can do it in the new hackmaster with enough penetration rolls

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  7. #7
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    What keeps people guessing is gear in this game.

    The only thing that makes gear worth farming, is if it isn't equal.

    If you can take a battle axe from level one, and augment it with what ever you need, you never need to farm for an axe again, however you now need to farm for those augments. So all you have done is pushed the farm from the item 'type' to the augments.

    Now when you farm an augment of flame, and keep getting tripping... You'll have the same problem, just pushed down. One level.

    Then there comes the idea that if you can make a single weapon the best, lets say for the purpose of silly, by the time you're level 28, your weapon has 3 augment slots of each type...

    Congrats you won DDO, you now have a weapon that never can be upgrade, works for every situation perfectly, and you'll only ever upgrade an augment when level 30 comes out, and you just have to farm that once piece.

    By keeping the weapons with multiple features it keeps it interesting...

    Now in some respects, I agree, I HATE the equipment system. It's always a challenge to get what you want on your gear in the slots you want because of previous slot restrictions. However, the slot restrictions are getting lower and lower, however the slot restrictions is what made it so you couldn't just get every stat/power you wanted in 10 seconds. The slot restrictions made you have to at least find an item with deathblock, that didn't remove your strength item, or con item, or what have you. Same with healing am. Ugh, my gloves are strength, I can't put on double strike gloves, cause then I need to find a new slot for strength, then I have to push my deathblock, then I have to move my blur, then I have to find my protection.

    THAT is the annoying part.

    Not the weapons.

  8. #8
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    To do what you want to do you need the Rolemaster System... except that it is not available in any MMO.

    That's the only system I know where a LVL 1 Kobold can one shot a LVL 30 Paladin in full plate with a wooden arrow ( and a lot of luck ).

    That's also a system where there is no level restriction on items.
    ( though as it's RM there is an option where you have to "fight" the first time you take the item to be able to control the item powers... there's always an option in RM )
    Rolemaster based MMO... Mmmmmm... Delicious
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  9. #9

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    I prefer the greensteel system (in the sense that you can create exactly what you want). Back when 20 was it GS was still the gold standard as far as item goes. Now it's useful in some slots (like extra HP and SP) but most people I assume use diff weapons as they level higher.

    The reason why GS is so good is that the grind is actually to get the material and the goal is to create the perfect tool for that toon. Be it HP cloak, SP boots, Con Op gloves, heal amp scepter, lightning strike B-sword etc. It conforms to your needs and you enjoy the ride much longer. In essence, you got your sting and it lasts you a while.

    My idea of a good end game (loot wise) would be a similar system to GS, but not epic GS. In essence I don't want epic shroud - I want something different but where you grind for mats and then create your own item. But this time it covers all slots and once you tier an item up to 3 times you can also add set bonuses to it. Meaning you either add a powerful set bonus if xyz is equipped or several small. It's your choice and it adds multiple dimension of what works perfectly for that character.

    The current crop of items are such a hit and miss, but the only bright light in the haystack of ideas are augments. It gives you a very limited option to make an item unique - or fit better. But it's not GS.

  10. #10
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Rolemaster based MMO... Mmmmmm... Delicious
    True... too bad it's only a dream.
    ( well we can always hope though maybe ICE will go the MMO way... again... )
    On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...

  11. #11
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The entire series ia a quest for a ring so they can destroy it because its TOO MUCH POWER for one noob character to handle.
    Boramir: OMG that ring totally unbalances the game. Devs, please nerf the one ring or take it out of the game.....
    Sauron: Youre just jealous because you dont play EE and cant get one, noob.
    Boramir: Dude, you totally dont play EE either, you bought it off the ASAH, and now youre just taking over? Way too much power for one item. Nerf it plox Devs...

    I do remember the part in LOTR where the elf king handed Strider the sword of a thousand truths so he can go boss some undead around.
    Then Frodo got twinked with mithril chain shirt and Sting (transferred over from his alt, Bilbo) - named loot that glowed when goblins/orcs were near - also has vermin bane on it.
    Then Gandalf returns after his death pact kicked in with all this white shiny garb, after he vendored his old grey noob robe. He also has a much better staff afterward...
    Thorin took that level of druid for beguile after he discovered how awesome an enchanted oak log of spearblock + bashing was, right in the middle of battle.
    Bard acquires pinyon, slays dragon with one adrenaline + slayer arrow shot. News at 11.
    The Éowyn character got rolled in book 2, and before its over, acquires new set of armor, sword, lance, and even a mount.

    No one in LOTR acquired new items? LOL.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-12-2013 at 04:24 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #12
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    I'm going to come right out and say it. I hate the D&D equipment system in general. I hate the DDO equipment system even more.

    Why?

    You remember that bit in Lord of the rings where Gimli is beating on Orcs with his keen greataxe but then switches to acid-spewing when the ogre showed up on account of their superior fortification? Or where Frodo traded in Sting and his mithril mail shirt for a really cool breast plate of negative level protection and vorpal shortsword?

    No, because it didn't happen. People got their gear and they stayed with their gear and gave their gear cool names. Generally, that's pretty much the rule in fantasy stories.

    Obviously this presents problems in D&D and DDO. Clearly, you can't have a first level character running around with an annihilating adamantine kama of superior heart-seeking one-shotting lvl 10 bosses left and right. Similarly, Davey Destructor the lvl 28 barbarian is not going to make much of an impression if he's lumbered with a flame-touched dagger.

    My solution would be weapons that improve with character level.

    This can either work intrinsically: You're 8th level, you know know enough about sword-wielding to unlock the keen-ness ability on your sword.

    Or it can work via augments: they already do work this way in a sense but are limited by the quality of the item itself. Not much point adding a lvl 16 augment to a level 2 item. Something you could do is have more augment slots become available as the user goes up in level.

    Or it could be a combination of both: more inherent powers and more and larger augment slots become available as the user gains levels.

    In this case acquiring items would, for the most part, occur at relatively low levels and instead of farming particular named items, you would be farming named augments with multiple effects and which combine to give set bonuses etc.

    This is a very different system from that in operation at the moment, and would obviously have a very different feel. I'm not suggesting Turbine should junk what they have and immediately go to this. This is entirely speculation.

    While I'm on the subject, having introduced augments the idea of having named items that are random agglomerations of nominally useful but practically useless abilities defeats the WHOLE purpose. How many people have farmed the seal of Dun'Robar only for it to drop in a junk configuration, +10 vertigo, +10 shatter, blah blah blah...? If you, the devs, can't decide what goes in those slots then leave them blank and let me pick the combination of augments I want. Ok, maybe make me farm the really nifty augments but at least don't saddle me with a WORTHLESS piece of junk in the meantime. Literally, you cannot give them away.
    yeah Gear should not work like this at all it would negate the value of all gear. Just carry one set of gear your entire life and never need anything new.

    if your diligent in your search for gear you can have very powerful gear at lvl 2 and lvl 4 that lasts until you reach Greensteel and carry your Greensteel until lvl 20 you don't really need to look for too many other options just a few swap in items here and there.

    on the other hand you can choose to only carry one weapon and use it against all types of monsters that's your choice.

    at lvl 6 I am carrying 1 repeater, 1 Carnifex, 1 undead beater maul and, 1 pair of wraps. That is a fairly short list.

    this is not LOTR btw

  13. #13
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The entire series ia a quest for a ring so they can destroy it because its TOO MUCH POWER for one noob character to handle.
    Boramir: OMG that ring totally unbalances the game. Devs, please nerf the one ring or take it out of the game.....
    Sauron: Youre just jealous because you dont play EE and cant get one, noob.
    Boramir: Dude, you totally dont play EE either, you bought it off the ASAH, and now youre just taking over? Way too much power for one item. Nerf it plox Devs...

    I do remember the part in LOTR where the elf king handed Strider the sword of a thousand truths so he can go boss some undead around.
    Then Frodo got twinked with mithril chain shirt and Sting (transferred over from his alt, Bilbo) - named loot that glowed when goblins/orcs were near - also has vermin bane on it.
    Then Gandalf returns after his death pact kicked in with all this white shiny garb, after he vendored his old grey noob robe. He also has a much better staff afterward...
    Thorin took that level of druid for beguile after he discovered how awesome an enchanted oak log of spearblock + bashing was, right in the middle of battle.
    Bard acquires pinyon, slays dragon with one adrenaline + slayer arrow shot. News at 11.
    The Éowyn character got rolled in book 2, and before its over, acquires new set of armor, sword, lance, and even a mount.

    No one in LOTR acquired new items? LOL.

    Superb Chai - Just Superb!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedOrm View Post
    Actually, we DO see them doing that. Both in the Hobbit and in LotR nobody was unarmed before they got their spiffy stuff: they HAD weapons and armor (well, not Bilbo, as he was not an adventurer at all untill Gandalf made him one). But when they found some really good stuff in various treasure hoards (or had their magic sword repaired), they immediately started using them.
    The reason they didn't trade them in more often is simply that these where the top items in that campaign; compared to the average D&D campain, the world as described in the books is fairly low on magic, and Bilbo's or Frodo's chances to ever get anything better than a mithril shirt were pretty much non-existent. Whereas in DDO (and many D&D campaigns), a non-magical mithral armor is something you will soon either make magical through crafting, or trade in for something better: it's definitely not endgame material.

    What you want is pretty easy to emulate in D&D -in a home campaign. Severely limit acces to magic, automatically making feats more important, and occasionally have quests where things happen that improve (part of) the equipment your players already have: at level 1, Joe Fighter rescues the baron's heir, and is rewarded with a masterwork sword, the blade of a knight. After taking out a dangerous group of brigands, an old priest bestows the blessings of the gods on Joe, and his weapon becomes +1. Later on, having defeated a young red dragon, Joe finds that some of the beast's blood has melded with the blade, and it now burns those it wounds. And so on. Just look at what sort of weapon (or other magic item) you want to give out to your players, and instead of giving the item itself, invent a way to upgrade an item the PC already has with the extra power. Tim the Enchanter helps a dryad, and she infuses his staff with wood lore, so it grants him a +5 on Knowlede: nature. Bob the cleric puts to rest a cursed spirit, and it thanks him by bestowing his weapon with ghost touch. Etc. Etc.

    However, in DDO all of the above is pretty easy to abuse, since there is no actual DM, quests can be repeated endlessly, and farming out the ultimate item would be extremely easy. No need to debate putting item x, y, or z in your headslot: you just make one item that has all 3. And then stack on the rest of the alphabet. Not gonna happen

    Greetz,
    red Orm
    You still don't see people swapping weapons mid combat from their golf bag of available options. Also, Frodo aside, the hobbits were not armed before looting stuff which they kept for the rest of the campaign. But thank you for derailing what could have been a constructive conversation into LoTR minutiae. There's always someone who has to be wilfully obstructive, this is the internet.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    yeah Gear should not work like this at all it would negate the value of all gear. Just carry one set of gear your entire life and never need anything new.

    if your diligent in your search for gear you can have very powerful gear at lvl 2 and lvl 4 that lasts until you reach Greensteel and carry your Greensteel until lvl 20 you don't really need to look for too many other options just a few swap in items here and there.

    on the other hand you can choose to only carry one weapon and use it against all types of monsters that's your choice.

    at lvl 6 I am carrying 1 repeater, 1 Carnifex, 1 undead beater maul and, 1 pair of wraps. That is a fairly short list.

    this is not LOTR btw
    Thanks for pointing that bit out. Which fantasy series DOES have people wandering around with half a dozen magical weapons they use as appropriate?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    I prefer the greensteel system (in the sense that you can create exactly what you want). Back when 20 was it GS was still the gold standard as far as item goes. Now it's useful in some slots (like extra HP and SP) but most people I assume use diff weapons as they level higher.

    The reason why GS is so good is that the grind is actually to get the material and the goal is to create the perfect tool for that toon. Be it HP cloak, SP boots, Con Op gloves, heal amp scepter, lightning strike B-sword etc. It conforms to your needs and you enjoy the ride much longer. In essence, you got your sting and it lasts you a while.

    My idea of a good end game (loot wise) would be a similar system to GS, but not epic GS. In essence I don't want epic shroud - I want something different but where you grind for mats and then create your own item. But this time it covers all slots and once you tier an item up to 3 times you can also add set bonuses to it. Meaning you either add a powerful set bonus if xyz is equipped or several small. It's your choice and it adds multiple dimension of what works perfectly for that character.

    The current crop of items are such a hit and miss, but the only bright light in the haystack of ideas are augments. It gives you a very limited option to make an item unique - or fit better. But it's not GS.
    I quite agree. Greensteel is a very good way of handling loot and it produces loot that is valuable and useful. I think the GS system could be expanded to epic levels with a bit of imagination and it would be a very good thing.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The entire series ia a quest for a ring so they can destroy it because its TOO MUCH POWER for one noob character to handle.
    Boramir: OMG that ring totally unbalances the game. Devs, please nerf the one ring or take it out of the game.....
    Sauron: Youre just jealous because you dont play EE and cant get one, noob.
    Boramir: Dude, you totally dont play EE either, you bought it off the ASAH, and now youre just taking over? Way too much power for one item. Nerf it plox Devs...

    I do remember the part in LOTR where the elf king handed Strider the sword of a thousand truths so he can go boss some undead around.
    Then Frodo got twinked with mithril chain shirt and Sting (transferred over from his alt, Bilbo) - named loot that glowed when goblins/orcs were near - also has vermin bane on it.
    Then Gandalf returns after his death pact kicked in with all this white shiny garb, after he vendored his old grey noob robe. He also has a much better staff afterward...
    Thorin took that level of druid for beguile after he discovered how awesome an enchanted oak log of spearblock + bashing was, right in the middle of battle.
    Bard acquires pinyon, slays dragon with one adrenaline + slayer arrow shot. News at 11.
    The Éowyn character got rolled in book 2, and before its over, acquires new set of armor, sword, lance, and even a mount.

    No one in LOTR acquired new items? LOL.
    Damn that was a good post Chai. the only question I have is did you remember all that or recently dusted off the box set for a LOTRO movie marathon
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No one in LOTR acquired new items? LOL.
    Outstandingly funny post.

    However, there's a distinct qualitative difference between the constant overturning of gear slots that occurs in the process of DDO levelling and the scarcity with which equipment sets evolve in any literary sources.

    Also, where was the bit where the characters were carrying multiple weapons for different opponents?

    Now to some extent this is irremediable given the format. Sure. So I'm moaning about something that isn't going to change, fine.

    But I'd rather get stuff and be able to stick with it than be constantly chopping and changing and futzing around with my inventory slots. To some extent ioun stones and GS items do address this. GS is a great system, I'd love to see it extended.

  19. #19
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    In fantasy books and movies, the goal is the story. 99% of your time is watching the journey, 1% is finding and killing the Villain.

    In fantasy games, the players have no patience for the story, regrettably. So 99% of your time chasing levels and loot. It's arguable that upgrading your named Sword might make more sense, from an FRPG perspective, but without the constant treadmill of new shiny things, most people will just get bored.

    Remember, the book or movie represents a few hours of entertainment. The game needs to last MUCH longer than that.

  20. #20
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The entire series ia a quest for a ring so they can destroy it because its TOO MUCH POWER for one noob character to handle.
    Boramir: OMG that ring totally unbalances the game. Devs, please nerf the one ring or take it out of the game.....
    Sauron: Youre just jealous because you dont play EE and cant get one, noob.
    Boramir: Dude, you totally dont play EE either, you bought it off the ASAH, and now youre just taking over? Way too much power for one item. Nerf it plox Devs...

    I do remember the part in LOTR where the elf king handed Strider the sword of a thousand truths so he can go boss some undead around.
    Then Frodo got twinked with mithril chain shirt and Sting (transferred over from his alt, Bilbo) - named loot that glowed when goblins/orcs were near - also has vermin bane on it.
    Then Gandalf returns after his death pact kicked in with all this white shiny garb, after he vendored his old grey noob robe. He also has a much better staff afterward...
    Thorin took that level of druid for beguile after he discovered how awesome an enchanted oak log of spearblock + bashing was, right in the middle of battle.
    Bard acquires pinyon, slays dragon with one adrenaline + slayer arrow shot. News at 11.
    The Éowyn character got rolled in book 2, and before its over, acquires new set of armor, sword, lance, and even a mount.

    No one in LOTR acquired new items? LOL.
    Pure genius!

    Stoner81.

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