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  1. #21
    Community Member Wulverine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    and I have seen some ingame who bought the new expansion not understanding they have to also have realms access from the other expansion. Making entire regions of the game and future expansions gated behind what to newer and newer players will seem a hidden gate fee is bad imo as well.
    This is not true. Eveningstar is a F2P area. It is a new hub from where all the new P2P content is linked off. (U14,15,16,18,19) And with the new xp ransack mechanism it's pretty easy to lvl to 28 while not having bought the motu expansion.(U14)
    Thelanis -- Wulverine [Funkaholic, Funkatronic, Funkarific all retired for now...]

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    So OP I can understand why a habitual TR junkie might want even more perks, but as always one must consider is the dev energy you ask to be spent going to help enough players to justify how it may offend other portions of the player base. I personally want nothing made that is not universally applicable to all, hence an annoyance that the realms access is locked behind pay for content, and I have seen some ingame who bought the new expansion not understanding they have to also have realms access from the other expansion. Making entire regions of the game and future expansions gated behind what to newer and newer players will seem a hidden gate fee is bad imo as well.
    The issue here is one of extrapolation. In terms of long term viability Turbine can't just keep raising the level cap, throwing out new gear that makes the old gear worthless, and more monsters with vaster HP totals.

    They've gone past the natural end point of the spell system and the further they go in that direction the closer the system gets to breaking point.

    Conclusion: There will have to be a level cap at some point.

    When that happens, and Turbine are already announcing level 30 will be it, people are going to be forced to repeat at level content over and over and over again.

    TRing gives you the option of at least accessing different content that you may not have done for weeks/months. Turbine will have to produce new content at levels they've already covered and it's going to have to appeal to players in some way.

    I am not suggesting that Turbine should condemn people who don't like TRing to lives of endless misery. Clearly there ought to be policies to address the way they play and try to make it more interesting. You clearly don't like TRing, fine, my suggestion is that they might try to find some way to make it more appealing. That doesn't seem like a bad thing.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    The devs aren't dumb. They're not going to create content that arbitrarily locks out a large chunk of the playerbase. Doing so would shoot themselves in the foot. While it might be an interesting idea in theory, in practice it would be extremely bad.
    They already do gate content. Favoured Soul and Artificer. Let's look at Artis. You have to get what 150 Cannith favour to unlock it or you can pay for it. I know players who have tried for YEARS to get to 150 Cannith favour and not yet been successful. You can't tell me that "the vast majority" of the player base have access to it. The vast majority of the artis you see have forked over money for the privilege.

    The whole idea of the game from a commercial perspective is to gate content in such a way that people are willing to pay money to access it. And they have already established a system where if you want something you have two options: grind it out or pay for it.

    This is another such system, it's a logical extension of what's already in place and you can assert however loudly that it isn't. You are simply incorrect in that assertion. You don't like TRing, fine, you don't like replaying low level content, fine. then don't TR and don't replay low level content and *if* you want access to the stuff fork over money.

    Just like happens now.

  4. #24
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    They already do gate content. Favoured Soul and Artificer. Let's look at Artis. You have to get what 150 Cannith favour to unlock it or you can pay for it. I know players who have tried for YEARS to get to 150 Cannith favour and not yet been successful. You can't tell me that "the vast majority" of the player base have access to it. The vast majority of the artis you see have forked over money for the privilege.

    The whole idea of the game from a commercial perspective is to gate content in such a way that people are willing to pay money to access it. And they have already established a system where if you want something you have two options: grind it out or pay for it.

    This is another such system, it's a logical extension of what's already in place and you can assert however loudly that it isn't. You are simply incorrect in that assertion. You don't like TRing, fine, you don't like replaying low level content, fine. then don't TR and don't replay low level content and *if* you want access to the stuff fork over money.

    Just like happens now.
    Grinding it out for years? My guildy just unlocked arti in a week. Maybe they need to re-evaluate how they go about grinding? I, on the other hand, did indeed buy arti right after it came out, because I wanted to try it. My arti's current TR to ranger is on the last leg of Vet 2 status, and it's only level 11. It's not much further to FvS from there. So I don't see how it's gated where people that might be willing to grind past lives can't get it in a single life, since I've seen it done.

    So no, I don't want content that's going to force me to grind for completionist, even though I may well do it eventually, it's not going to be because there's content I can't access until I do. It's going to happen when I finally decide that it's time to do it.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    about classes/pre recquiring tr? is like releasing a content than can play only ppl from XXX country, is plain dumb, classes/pre than cannot tr from/into? same as before, restricting the access to your stuff of some of your customers only will make em have a bad opinion of you (check iconic heroes, tr'able in u20, was quite obvious for me before the release, wasn't for u?) and aslo will make less money
    Artis and Favoured Souls already work on this concept. Either you pay to access them OR you have to run a toon through a life and jump through appropriate hoops. Then you either TR or you start an alt - in BOTH cases you are repeating low level content so the distinction seems pretty flimsy.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Grinding it out for years? My guildy just unlocked arti in a week. Maybe they need to re-evaluate how they go about grinding? I, on the other hand, did indeed buy arti right after it came out, because I wanted to try it. My arti's current TR to ranger is on the last leg of Vet 2 status, and it's only level 11. It's not much further to FvS from there. So I don't see how it's gated where people that might be willing to grind past lives can't get it in a single life, since I've seen it done.

    So no, I don't want content that's going to force me to grind for completionist, even though I may well do it eventually, it's not going to be because there's content I can't access until I do. It's going to happen when I finally decide that it's time to do it.
    Well I knew someone would make the comment about the Cannith Favour farming, you can take that up with the player concerned.

    At no stage did I suggest content that required completionist, and you're right, that seems a VERY bad idea. What I'm suggesting is races/classes that require *a* past life to activate. If you want to collect the set, yes, that's a lot of grinding. You want to try one, it's just like any other TR only you get some more options.

  7. #27
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    i think the increased boss hp is partly because mob AI is limited and scripted and also because we do insane damage. we can do damage in the epic levels of 5k+ at least. i know in heroics i came across casters that were doing damage as high as 3k a year ago. i suppose the high hp is a trade off for what the devs are capable and allowed to do.

  8. #28
    Community Member Elation's Avatar
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    Default I am with the Lor person on this one..

    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    I don't recall suggesting TRing should be mandatory. You don't want to TR? Don't. You won't be any worse off.

    People who TR will be better off, but they already are and that doesn't bother you at all. Why does it bother you that they can be even more better off?

    A player puts in a lot of effort to TR and to keep the lower-level portions of the game active, populated and full of experienced/skilled players. You don't think they deserve something for their efforts while you farm whatever high-level stuff you want?
    Since I hate tring with a passion, I would rather level an alt then relevel a toon, you answered your own question you stated "Why does it bother you that they can be even more better off?" Now read what you wrote and think.... ""More better off"" Oh because now the gap is so wide that you must now have 6 past lifes of arti so you unlocked god like avatar form of something, and if you do you will be ridiculed by the player base.

    If turbine ever ties classes classes to tring specific bonuses they will finally lose a die hard fan..... you like tring so much why do they need to add to it? You already do it?
    ashlick , bizkit, boobooface, breeewind, breunorson, crystalin, dreamless, drunkenorc, earthborn, elation, elazibeth, firesavant, ftwjust, gabrrielle, hiting, idelisa, inactive,jessamyne, keeblerorc,keighra, killia, layniebug, lmyc, mealltach, nicholete, ravinclaws, sapphiire, tairrdelbach, teenny

  9. #29
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    They already do gate content. Favoured Soul and Artificer. Let's look at Artis. You have to get what 150 Cannith favour to unlock it or you can pay for it. I know players who have tried for YEARS to get to 150 Cannith favour and not yet been successful. You can't tell me that "the vast majority" of the player base have access to it. The vast majority of the artis you see have forked over money for the privilege.
    Except this isn't even remotely comparable to what you're proposing. Can you toss some money at Turbine and be instantly TR'd 4-5 times? Of course not. What you're proposing would be the equivalent of saying, "Oh, you want to play an Artificer? Okay. Level a half-orc rogue to 20, an elven wizard to 20, a human cleric to 20, and a dwarven ranger to 20. Then you can unlock this class. Pay money? Hah! No, you can't actually BUY the class, you have to actually grind it out!"

    There's a vast difference between "spend $10 and unlock a class" and "TR multiple times to unlock a class". The fact that you don't seem to grasp that astounds me.

    The whole idea of the game from a commercial perspective is to gate content in such a way that people are willing to pay money to access it. And they have already established a system where if you want something you have two options: grind it out or pay for it.
    Except what you're proposing is both. Pay money AND grind. That's not going to encourage people.

    This is another such system, it's a logical extension of what's already in place and you can assert however loudly that it isn't. You are simply incorrect in that assertion. You don't like TRing, fine, you don't like replaying low level content, fine. then don't TR and don't replay low level content and *if* you want access to the stuff fork over money.

    Just like happens now.
    No, it's not a "logical extension" in the slightest. TRing is an optional system, and should remain so. Gating content behind it, thereby FORCING people to have to TR, is ridiculous.

    Again, let me ask you this: if they introduced a bunch of new content, with the caveat that "if your character has TR'd, you cannot access this. You can't gain the quests, you can't even enter the dungeons", and they added a bunch of new stuff to be had there. Access to new classes via gaining favor with a new faction, interesting new gear, etc.

    How do you think the players would react to that? FORCING them to have to make brand new, non-TR characters would rightfully anger a lot of people, as their multi-TR (or even single-TR) characters would be locked out. You think people would be happy with that?

    What you're proposing is the same thing, just in the other direction. It's not a "logical progression" at all. It's wanting to make TR mandatory, rather than optional. And that's wrong.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Except this isn't even remotely comparable to what you're proposing. Can you toss some money at Turbine and be instantly TR'd 4-5 times? Of course not. What you're proposing would be the equivalent of saying, "Oh, you want to play an Artificer? Okay. Level a half-orc rogue to 20, an elven wizard to 20, a human cleric to 20, and a dwarven ranger to 20. Then you can unlock this class. Pay money? Hah! No, you can't actually BUY the class, you have to actually grind it out!"

    There's a vast difference between "spend $10 and unlock a class" and "TR multiple times to unlock a class". The fact that you don't seem to grasp that astounds me.

    Except what you're proposing is both. Pay money AND grind. That's not going to encourage people.

    No, it's not a "logical extension" in the slightest. TRing is an optional system, and should remain so. Gating content behind it, thereby FORCING people to have to TR, is ridiculous.

    Again, let me ask you this: if they introduced a bunch of new content, with the caveat that "if your character has TR'd, you cannot access this. You can't gain the quests, you can't even enter the dungeons", and they added a bunch of new stuff to be had there. Access to new classes via gaining favor with a new faction, interesting new gear, etc.

    How do you think the players would react to that? FORCING them to have to make brand new, non-TR characters would rightfully anger a lot of people, as their multi-TR (or even single-TR) characters would be locked out. You think people would be happy with that?

    What you're proposing is the same thing, just in the other direction. It's not a "logical progression" at all. It's wanting to make TR mandatory, rather than optional. And that's wrong.
    I have repeatedly stated I do not want to make TRing mandatory.

    Nor did I at any stage assert that in order to access these things you had to pay money AND TR. You pay money OR TR.

    Nor did I suggest the existence of classes/races/items that required multiple TRs.

    In fact at various points in this thread I have explicitly stated all of these positions very clearly. Now if you're quite finished mis-representing my position we can all get back to ACTUAL conversation.

  11. #31
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    I have repeatedly stated I do not want to make TRing mandatory.

    Nor did I at any stage assert that in order to access these things you had to pay money AND TR. You pay money OR TR.

    Nor did I suggest the existence of classes/races/items that required multiple TRs.

    In fact at various points in this thread I have explicitly stated all of these positions very clearly. Now if you're quite finished mis-representing my position we can all get back to ACTUAL conversation.
    Nowhere did you suggest that these things:
    Rewards for different lives with different races (corresponding completionist).
    Access to PC races or Prestige Classes that have TR prerequisites (this would involve actual honest to goodness prestige classes, not an enhancement based kludge)
    Prestige Class/Race past-life feats.
    Items with neat extra abilities that are unlocked by past-life feats or that receive an increment every time they get put into a TR bank.
    Would be available to simply buy, in addition to TRing for the benefits. In fact, you implied that those that TR "deserve extra benefits". If you gate a bunch of new content, whether it's races, classes, prestige lines, gear, etc, behind TRing without giving people a way to bypass it via simply buying it on the shop, guess what? You've just made TRing mandatory if they want to try out that content.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elation View Post
    Since I hate tring with a passion, I would rather level an alt then relevel a toon, you answered your own question you stated "Why does it bother you that they can be even more better off?" Now read what you wrote and think.... ""More better off"" Oh because now the gap is so wide that you must now have 6 past lifes of arti so you unlocked god like avatar form of something, and if you do you will be ridiculed by the player base.

    If turbine ever ties classes classes to tring specific bonuses they will finally lose a die hard fan..... you like tring so much why do they need to add to it? You already do it?
    I will explain this YET AGAIN. Ultimately there WILL be a level cap. When that is introduce characters will bump against the roof and float there for a while looking a bit bewildered until they get bored.

    What I'm suggesting is that adding additional options as part of the TR process will extend the shelf life of the game by giving people different play styles and character paths to explore.

    You hate TRing? Fine, don't do it. *IF* you want access to the additional content (and you may or may not) then pay for it. How is this not the same as what already happens with artis and favoured souls?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Nowhere did you suggest that these things:


    Would be available to simply buy, in addition to TRing for the benefits. In fact, you implied that those that TR "deserve extra benefits". If you gate a bunch of new content, whether it's races, classes, prestige lines, gear, etc, behind TRing without giving people a way to bypass it via simply buying it on the shop, guess what? You've just made TRing mandatory if they want to try out that content.
    I did not state that explicitly in my original post because I had assumed that people would interpret what I had said through the lens of "well he didn't say either way, but there's only one way this makes a lick of sense". dmittedly that requires a modicum of intellectual agility on the part of the reader, but I tend to be charitable in my estimation of the general public's capacity.

    Obviously, in this particular case I was off the mark and that was a mistake on my part. The assumption that readers might be inclined to anything other than immediate and unwarranted condemnation was unfounded.

    Mea Maxima Culpa.

    So, yes, OBVIOUSLY, locking content that is ONLY accessible by TRing is a bad idea. Even more so anything that absolutely REQUIRES multiple TRs. people should be able to buy it if they wish.

    It's a good thing I never said any such thing.

    I did however several times prior to your latest two posts explicitly explain that players would have the option to pay for the proposed content. Perhaps if you had read those posts you might have had a clearer picture of what I was actually talking about.

  14. #34
    Community Member Elation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    Artis and Favoured Souls already work on this concept. Either you pay to access them OR you have to run a toon through a life and jump through appropriate hoops. Then you either TR or you start an alt - in BOTH cases you are repeating low level content so the distinction seems pretty flimsy.
    You need a better comparison then things you can earn easily for free in game. FVS and ARTI are easy grinds. Tring a bunch of times just makes my head hurt.
    ashlick , bizkit, boobooface, breeewind, breunorson, crystalin, dreamless, drunkenorc, earthborn, elation, elazibeth, firesavant, ftwjust, gabrrielle, hiting, idelisa, inactive,jessamyne, keeblerorc,keighra, killia, layniebug, lmyc, mealltach, nicholete, ravinclaws, sapphiire, tairrdelbach, teenny

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elation View Post
    You need a better comparison then things you can earn easily for free in game. FVS and ARTI are easy grinds. Tring a bunch of times just makes my head hurt.
    I'm not suggesting TRing a bunch of times. I'm suggesting TRing *a* time. Alternatively, you can pay for it.

  16. #36
    Community Member Elation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    I will explain this YET AGAIN. Ultimately there WILL be a level cap. When that is introduce characters will bump against the roof and float there for a while looking a bit bewildered until they get bored.

    What I'm suggesting is that adding additional options as part of the TR process will extend the shelf life of the game by giving people different play styles and character paths to explore.

    You hate TRing? Fine, don't do it. *IF* you want access to the additional content (and you may or may not) then pay for it. How is this not the same as what already happens with artis and favoured souls?
    I have been playing long enough to know what it feels when there is a lvl cap and no way to do anything but actaully delete the charactor to start a new one, do you remember that time period of play? Level cap was 16 for a very long time. What happens when i get bored I do not want to take my capped toon and start over i roll another toon. That was simple. Comparing needing past lives to unlock new classes and races would suck the life out of the toons that i already have hey take your capped toon and start over so you can try what might be an ok class?

    The fvs and arti thing is not comparable you do not even have to come close to capping a toon to get either one of those for free with minimal grind and in fact they help you get eachother.
    ashlick , bizkit, boobooface, breeewind, breunorson, crystalin, dreamless, drunkenorc, earthborn, elation, elazibeth, firesavant, ftwjust, gabrrielle, hiting, idelisa, inactive,jessamyne, keeblerorc,keighra, killia, layniebug, lmyc, mealltach, nicholete, ravinclaws, sapphiire, tairrdelbach, teenny

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Nowhere did you suggest that these things:


    Would be available to simply buy, in addition to TRing for the benefits. In fact, you implied that those that TR "deserve extra benefits". If you gate a bunch of new content, whether it's races, classes, prestige lines, gear, etc, behind TRing without giving people a way to bypass it via simply buying it on the shop, guess what? You've just made TRing mandatory if they want to try out that content.
    So he didn't mention they would sell it, big deal.

    Of course they would sell, it, come on.

    Give the guy a break, eh?

  18. #38
    Community Member Elation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    I will explain this YET AGAIN. Ultimately there WILL be a level cap. When that is introduce characters will bump against the roof and float there for a while looking a bit bewildered until they get bored.

    What I'm suggesting is that adding additional options as part of the TR process will extend the shelf life of the game by giving people different play styles and character paths to explore.

    You hate TRing? Fine, don't do it. *IF* you want access to the additional content (and you may or may not) then pay for it. How is this not the same as what already happens with artis and favoured souls?
    The main arguement with your ideas for me is races and classes tied to tring you want items that can become more powerful if stashed in a tr bank cool they can even get specific effects based on your previous class cool legacy weapons could be awesome. races and classes though no way...
    ashlick , bizkit, boobooface, breeewind, breunorson, crystalin, dreamless, drunkenorc, earthborn, elation, elazibeth, firesavant, ftwjust, gabrrielle, hiting, idelisa, inactive,jessamyne, keeblerorc,keighra, killia, layniebug, lmyc, mealltach, nicholete, ravinclaws, sapphiire, tairrdelbach, teenny

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    TRing gives you the option of at least accessing different content that you may not have done for weeks/months. Turbine will have to produce new content at levels they've already covered and it's going to have to appeal to players in some way.

    I am not suggesting that Turbine should condemn people who don't like TRing to lives of endless misery. Clearly there ought to be policies to address the way they play and try to make it more interesting. You clearly don't like TRing, fine, my suggestion is that they might try to find some way to make it more appealing. That doesn't seem like a bad thing.
    To make it more appealing, all they have to do is allow characters to be rolled back and forth between their various lives. So a 3rd life character, for example, could be played as the 1st life level 20+ fighter they have, the second life level 20+ paladin or the 3rd life level whatever Wizard. Gaining xp independently in each incarnation for that incarnation.

    Anything to make TRing more popular that doesn't move in the direction of making it less of a terminal decision will likely leave those, like myself, who don't see re-rolling as good progression mechanic less satisfied with the game as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elation View Post
    I have been playing long enough to know what it feels when there is a lvl cap and no way to do anything but actaully delete the charactor to start a new one, do you remember that time period of play? Level cap was 16 for a very long time. What happens when i get bored I do not want to take my capped toon and start over i roll another toon. That was simple. Comparing needing past lives to unlock new classes and races would suck the life out of the toons that i already have hey take your capped toon and start over so you can try what might be an ok class?

    The fvs and arti thing is not comparable you do not even have to come close to capping a toon to get either one of those for free with minimal grind and in fact they help you get eachother.
    A long time and forever are different time-scales.

    I know a lot of people have a lot of trouble unlocking arti through play. It does not come naturally, particularly now when PUGs for House C challenges are almost non-existent. You can't even begin to unlock arti in earnest until level 17 or so, and you're likely to be 19 by the time you've finished. Then you start a new toon with arti unlocked. That seems uncannily close to TRing to me. The difference is not that big.

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