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  1. #1
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Default Does Force Spellpower affect Wolf/Bear form attack damage?

    So since for some odd reason the devs decided to make the physical attacks of bear and wolf form (ie. Roar, Shred or Maul) which causes it to be blocked by raging, anti-magic cones and of course require spell points. So since their considered spells and most do untyped damage than its logical to assume that like say blade barrier force spellpower, crit etc. should affect the damage. Also if these are spell why do no Meta's affect them?

    Has anyone tried this...how are these abilities supposed to work?

    Either they are spells and should be treated as such with spellpower boosting damage, metamagics,et.c OR their not spells and should be auto-granted feats (at relevant druid level) that work similar to abilities like cleave and should not be blocked by stuff like rage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
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  2. #2
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    Logic has no place in this discussion.

    They work the way they do simply due to DM Fiat.

    To answer your question though, yes I've tested it before and no, it doesn't work.

    Nothing boosts the attacks.

  3. #3
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    Logic has no place in this discussion.

    They work the way they do simply due to DM Fiat.

    To answer your question though, yes I've tested it before and no, it doesn't work.

    Nothing boosts the attacks.
    I'd like to know their reasoning behind this

    - Was it laziness making them spells was just easier

    - Is it actually a bug and for spellpower SHOULD affect them

    - Was it an oversight that no one thought they could work similar to cleave or stunning blow (cooldowns)

    - Did they think giving druids non-spell physical abilities was OP somehow (note how few people play druids right now)

    - Something else?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  4. #4
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Yes it should be changed but from what I remember reading;

    They did it to fill out the spell lists
    It's all wai
    It's not going to change

    That said you can boost the damage of a wolf form up pretty high but it involves a deep monk splash to do so.

  5. #5
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    They did it to fill out the spell lists
    Thats a dumb reason...their not actually spells so the actual spellcaster druids don't care

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's all wai
    It's not going to change
    It better not be and it better change as the shapeshifting is a BIG part of the druid class and currently its fairly useless. IMO Druids are a failed class right now especially since their spellcasting and healing are subpar...I mean the HoT spells could have been an interesting concept but the time the ability lasts for makes it pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    That said you can boost the damage of a wolf form up pretty high but it involves a deep monk splash to do so.
    As much as I love multi-classing every class should be able to stand on it's own
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  6. #6
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Thats a dumb reason...their not actually spells so the actual spellcaster druids don't care



    It better not be and it better change as the shapeshifting is a BIG part of the druid class and currently its fairly useless. IMO Druids are a failed class right now especially since their spellcasting and healing are subpar...I mean the HoT spells could have been an interesting concept but the time the ability lasts for makes it pointless.



    As much as I love multi-classing every class should be able to stand on it's own
    Just read your signature and if that's your goal a pure wolf form does indeed stand on it's own in normal content, if that's your goal everything is 100% viable, it's only ee's that you need to worry about the things you're talking about.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Thats a dumb reason...they're not actually spells so the actual spellcaster druids don't care
    And yet that's exactly what they did.

    I've made the same observation in the past, though on my original account (This one only has mules), though I'm damned if I can find the threads now.

    Look through your Druid's Spellbook.

    Now, remove all the "spells" that can only be used whilst in Wolf, Bear, Fire Elemental or Water Elemental Forms.

    Look how many are left...

  8. #8
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Just read your signature and if that's your goal a pure wolf form does indeed stand on it's own in normal content, if that's your goal everything is 100% viable, it's only ee's that you need to worry about the things you're talking about.
    Oh to clarify I never build for hard or elite but I never have an issue with accidentally making a build that can handle EE that quote is mainly for people who flip out because for example I splashed a few levels on a rogue Assassin so it won't work perfect in EE.

    Also I love the feeling of building a perfect build that satisfaction of everything fitting together perfectly is glorious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    And yet that's exactly what they did.

    I've made the same observation in the past, though on my original account (This one only has mules), though I'm damned if I can find the threads now.

    Look through your Druid's Spellbook.

    Now, remove all the "spells" that can only be used whilst in Wolf, Bear, Fire Elemental or Water Elemental Forms.

    Look how many are left...
    I went through them and the amount of spells you get per levels isn't reduced much to be honest (only 3 or less per spell level)...I mean there's only a few lvl 8 and 9 spells but thats true of all spellcasters (asnd is still true even counting the from "abiliiters). If it is the reason they added them to the spellbook again...dumb reason.

    I'd really love to hear some dev input on this...the Whys? the WAIs? the not WAIs? Possible plans to change it? etc. etc.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-11-2013 at 07:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I went through them and the amount of spells you get per levels isn't reduced much to be honest (only 3 or less per spell level)...I mean there's only a few lvl 8 and 9 spells but thats true of all spellcasters (asnd is still true even counting the from "abiliiters). If it is the reason they added them to the spellbook again...dumb reason.

    I'd really love to hear some dev input on this...the Whys? the WAIs? the not WAIs? Possible plans to change it? etc. etc.
    It is especially annoying when you realize how many PnP spells they left out which would otherwise have been perfectly suitable for the game:

    Level 4
    Spike Stones - an enhanced spike growth spell

    Level 5
    Baleful Polymorph - turn em into toads!
    Wall of Thorns - slashing damage wall of fire essentially

    Level 6
    Liveoak - summon a treant

    Level 7
    Transmute metal to wood - Attack, Damage, and AC debuff in a large area

    Level 8
    Word of Recall - treat it like teleport?
    Reverse Gravity - I wish....
    Whirlwind - Its a freakin tornado...

    Level 9
    Elemental Swarm - summon several elementals


    And that's just from the players handbook. There are many many many more if you delve into the other books. Not a stretch when you consider their solution of pulling animal form attacks out of thin air :P

  10. #10
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richieelias27 View Post
    Level 4
    Spike Stones - an enhanced spike growth spell
    This sucks because I love the animation for spike growth is so cool but its kind of a cr*p spell

    Quote Originally Posted by richieelias27 View Post
    Level 5
    Baleful Polymorph - turn em into toads!
    I fail to see why they can't give us a single target version of the epic spell (feat?) Mass Frog...although it would be nice if it was a random harmless animal like frog, bunny, rat, Squirrel,etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by richieelias27 View Post
    Wall of Thorns - slashing damage wall of fire essentially
    Having this would really do alot to catch offensive spellcaster druids up a bit

    Quote Originally Posted by richieelias27 View Post
    Liveoak - summon a treant
    Despite popular opinion I love summons and druids are the best at it so I would love a different summon

    Quote Originally Posted by richieelias27 View Post
    Level 7
    Transmute metal to wood - Attack, Damage, and AC debuff in a large area
    I also recall a spell called "Heat Metal" can't remeber its actual affect though...Metal to wood would be a cool spell though

    Quote Originally Posted by richieelias27 View Post
    Level 8
    Word of Recall - treat it like teleport?
    Would be an apt. translation of the spell

    Quote Originally Posted by richieelias27 View Post
    Whirlwind - Its a freakin tornado...
    This

    Quote Originally Posted by richieelias27 View Post
    Level 9
    Elemental Swarm - summon several elementals
    I think the devs said a while ago summoning multiple summons would cause killer lag BUT if it was just a CR 20 "swarm" of tiny elementals that counted as one creature that would be awesome.


    Another thing I'd like to see is that stupid summer/winter mechanic abolished...make two versions of Seasons Herald SH-Summer and Sh-Winter and like savants have them lock out the other one than have the tree focus on the relevant element.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  11. #11
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I think the devs said a while ago summoning multiple summons would cause killer lag BUT if it was just a CR 20 "swarm" of tiny elementals that counted as one creature that would be awesome.
    The devs may say that, but when I have 4+ oozes out from my ooze 2 longbow, I have never had lag, and no one in my party starts complaining about lag when I start getting them.
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  12. #12
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    The devs may say that, but when I have 4+ oozes out from my ooze 2 longbow, I have never had lag, and no one in my party starts complaining about lag when I start getting them.
    To be fair I rarely ever experience lag so I could care less but there's a very vocal minority that would rail against the idea and I'd rather keep it out of this thread...also I would love to summon tiny earth elemental swarms as a single creature it would be funny....especially if their attack animation is similar to how those flower things in pikmin attack

    http://youtu.be/WJwgb9ea7Do?t=4m36s
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  13. #13
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    To be fair I rarely ever experience lag so I could care less but there's a very vocal minority that would rail against the idea and I'd rather keep it out of this thread...also I would love to summon tiny earth elemental swarms as a single creature it would be funny....especially if their attack animation is similar to how those flower things in pikmin attack

    http://youtu.be/WJwgb9ea7Do?t=4m36s
    They could easily reskin gelatinous cubes to make swarms of all types. The engulf attack is very similar, mechanically, to how a swarm's distraction attack works.
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  14. #14
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.

  15. #15
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.
    Which takes away from much of the versatility that made druids a loved and much asked for class.
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  16. #16
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.
    1. So why are they blocked by antimagic and rage?

    2. ANy word on whether animal form 2wf is WAI?
    Last edited by SerPounce; 09-13-2013 at 12:03 PM.
    Sabathal and Sabbathiel of Sarlona

  17. #17
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.
    We understand that but its kind of a moot point...my druid spellcaster have no form abilities and my from specialized druid have all the spell slots they need.

    The problem is that it makes it so you can't make effective Barbarian Druids because you can use your melee abilities which are incredibly iconic.

    Also it punishes form-focused druids by blocking their abilities if theirm silenced or in an anti-magic aura

    All that if you insist on keeping them as spells than let spellpower and metamagics affect them....currently they have the negatives of being spells and the negatives of not being spells no positives

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Which takes away from much of the versatility that made druids a loved and much asked for class.
    This, a Druids advantage over other classes is their versatility allowing them to adapt to the situation as their healing, melee, offensive casting, defensive capabilities are all subpar when compared to other more specialized classes....you taken away their versatility making them just a subpar class instead of versatile/ready for anything
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-13-2013 at 11:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.
    I can see where you are coming from there. I mean from my understanding of what you are saying, you want druids to have to make an overall power choice between slotting melee spells or casting spells right? Well, where it starts to get all pear shaped is in the later levels where there is no choice at all. Especially at level 9 where you have exactly the same number of level 9 spells as spell slots.

    Personally though, I don't see it working the way you are intending it to be working simply because there are so few effective caster spells to choose from. I feel like if I wanted to make a mixed caster/melee hybrid druid that I could still get all the normal spells I use as a pure caster druid and fit in the melee ones as well.

    Also, as SerPounce mentioned, melee attack (spells) shouldnt be blocked by antimagic or rage, though I understand it is probably very difficult to code in an exception... I really do hope that you re-think this mechanic in the future and make these abilities SLA's instead. Perhaps unlockable in the Nature's Warrior tree?

    Also, we need more spell options, especially the physical damage type ones. Maybe even an enhancement tree specializing in physical damage type spells? Insect Plague, Wall of Thorns, Creeping doom, etc? Pretty please?
    Last edited by richieelias27; 09-13-2013 at 12:39 PM.

  19. #19
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I would love to see enhancements supporting the huge amounts of untyped/physical/force damage spells that druids get. Was disappointed that they didn't when they came out. Instead we got seasons herald which is like the bastard stepchild of the sorcerer's savant trees.

    My caster druid actually carries several of both the wolf and bear form attacks for when I am low of SP and need to extend my offensive capabilities to the next shrine. I do not give up anything I want to have in order to do this, so you choice making thing is kind of failing anyway.
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.
    They should be counted as SLA’s though. You can rock a magically shapeshifted form in an anti-magic field, but can’t use any of it’s natural attacks because of the same anti-magic field? It makes as little sense as having a spell that blocks magical movement impediments (Freedom of Movement) that doesn’t block the magical movement impediments from a spellward.
    Things worthy of Standing Stone going EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on.:
    • NEW - Fix the flipping non-proficiency penalties for wildshape!
    • Redo the Favor rewards so there is a reason to do max favor again.
    • Redoing the drop rates of tomes in generic and raid loot tables.
    • Task Lynnabel with updating the remaining legacy named loot to not suck.
    • Tiering the Runearms so that artificers aren’t screwed out of the advantages of Cannith Crafting in Epic levels on their signature item.
    • Finishing the enhancement tree passes (including racial PrE’s) before rolling out yet another DDOStore™ Enhancement Tree.

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