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  1. #1
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    Default It's time for Turbine to pull finger.

    In twelve months end game has taken a significant slide, so much so that a lot of players have migrated away from DDO, I use the word migrated because I believe they can be lured back to the game.

    Turbine basically rebuilt end game with Motu and the level cap increase, both making the game easier, making acquiring loot easier and marginalizing the awesome raiding scene that was a significant part of DDO's end game pre Motu.

    What turbine needs to do now is reinvigorate end game, without it this game is slowly dieing, there's no reason to stay and play at cap anymore, there's no reason to stack past lives anymore, there's no difficulty in acquiring high end loot.

    -So we are getting a new raid in 2014, seriously this will be too late for many. We need a raid now, Epic Tempests Spine already and make it free to play.
    -So they are supposedly rewriting the random affixes on items so we will see the multi faceted affixes in the future, maybe or maybe not? We need this now, random loot is now so boring...
    -New named loot is meh, it really, really is. Run a pass over this stuff!

    Come on Turbine it's time to pull finger, or we will see the ruin of a once great MMO.

    PS. The enhance pass is solid, but what good is it if we don't have a game to play it with?
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  2. #2
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Its not like a dev waves their wand, and suddenly......A raid appears!!! Ok folks everyone roll initiative....

    Or they just flip a switch, and Tempest Spine becomes epic...

    I want more raids too, and would like to see the epicification of older content that barely gets run in its current state, but its not going to happen in a week.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its not like a dev waves their wand, and suddenly......A raid appears!!! Ok folks everyone roll initiative....

    Or they just flip a switch, and Tempest Spine becomes epic...

    I want more raids too, and would like to see the epicification of older content that barely gets run in its current state, but its not going to happen in a week.
    I completely understand the logistics of it, hence why I am asking them to Epic Tempest Spine, the "base" of the raid is already there.
    Early 2014 will be too late to save end game, not to mention the plan to increase the cap to 30....... are they serious with a notion such as this?

    I know there is plenty of threads like this out there, but what are we to do if there is no real end game? Why petition for it of course.
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  4. #4
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Aye, it certainly wouldn't happen in a week. But I think that if people saw Turbine have the stated priority of making the older raids epic at end game levels rather than just promising one additional raid that would help give players some hope. But it might not stem the tide especially given its likely turn-around time.

    Also, pull finger? I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    Aye, it certainly wouldn't happen in a week. But I think that if people saw Turbine have the stated priority of making the older raids epic at end game levels rather than just promising one additional raid that would help give players some hope. But it might not stem the tide especially given its likely turn-around time.

    Also, pull finger? I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.
    That phrase means exactly what I think it means lol.
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  6. #6
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    While I would not mind to see a few of the older quests/raids turned epic. I would rather see the further expansion of "The Forgotten Realms" via more quests and yes another raid or two. I strongly feel and it may not be entirely the fault of Turbine (aka Legal Issues) that they did not start DDO in FR but I think they know that the larger percentage of the player base for a D&D based game prefers FR. This really needs to be the focus of DDO. As for the end game there does need to be more but that is in part because they just extended the end game and I feel the content will catch up eventually.

    The one area of improvement needed is the timeliness of new updates. I have been playing since February 2006 (7+ years) and I am spoiled a bit because updates used to come out every 3-4 months like clockwork. Update 18 in my opinion can not in anyway be considered an update as it was the weakest update in DDO's history and probably should have been held a bit longer. But holding the updates is a big problem in and of itself as they are coming to infrequently. I am satisfied with Update 19 and feel it is a great addition to DDO and look forward to more in the future.

    Part of the problem is the incredible expansion of loot or should I say uber loot. We used to have to use the actual D&D system of allowing loot to drop based on a die roll but players complained, "Why should we have to use a D&D system in a D&D based game"? This resulted in way to much grind and players will quit if you don't make it easier. So DDO did make it easier and started dropping major loot like candy that was better than greensteel and just about anything you could do with the ingredient system (aka scrolls, shards & seals). Players that got their wealth the hard way complained then and eventually the players that didn't like it started complaining. "It's to easy now everyone has what I have, not fair". Now quests are to easy we kill monsters way to fast epic elite is no longer epic elite as it used to be. The game has made it so that healers are almost non-existant and that rogues really have no meaning. Without healers being in most parties barbarians and fighters are starting to become extinct as well.

    Turbine could have easily pushed back and seen the larger vision down the road and planned better on how t show the player base some tough love. But we kept pushing and they gave in, now here we are...
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  7. #7
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops View Post
    I completely understand the logistics of it, hence why I am asking them to Epic Tempest Spine, the "base" of the raid is already there.
    Early 2014 will be too late to save end game, not to mention the plan to increase the cap to 30....... are they serious with a notion such as this?

    I know there is plenty of threads like this out there, but what are we to do if there is no real end game? Why petition for it of course.

    Add to Tempest Spine:

    Epic Versions of Caverns of Korromar, Gwylan's Stand, Stormcleave Outpost & Redwillow's Ruins.


    Then do a Stormreach Epic Classics Pack with:

    Misery's Peak, Proof is in the Poison, Tear of Dhakaan, Church & the Cult, Relic of a Sovereign Past, Mired in Kobolds & Acid Wit.


    Then Full on Epic The Restless Isles and Ruins of Threnal + Re-Vamp the Explorer Zones - These Chains are no longer needed at the early mid levels and would be much more realistic at Epic Levels.


    There's Plenty of Named Loot in those quests for the Devs to Upgrade too.

    Who Needs New {trash} Packs when the old {fantastic} could be re-vamped and Upgraded?

  8. #8
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops View Post
    In twelve months end game has taken a significant slide, so much so that a lot of players have migrated away from DDO, I use the word migrated because I believe they can be lured back to the game.
    If U19 is any indication, yep. But I have seen many of these people leave (again) thanks to all of the bugs in the tree's; even if they liked it.

    Turbine basically rebuilt end game with Motu and the level cap increase, both making the game easier, making acquiring loot easier and marginalizing the awesome raiding scene that was a significant part of DDO's end game pre Motu.
    Actually the game has grown more difficult, loot is more difficult to acquire (unless you spend $$$ or have good RL trade skills), but yes, raiding has died in favor of 6 man quests with equivalent rewards. I am tired of veterans arguing the game has gotten too easy without justifying their statement. Because I can name multiple things that have happened sense U10 that have not only made the game harder but new player unfriendly. Many of these changes have been done directly because the community wanted it. Not even going to talk about "easier loot" because unless you are using bypass timers it isn't any easier because finding what you need is still luck of the draw in the AH/SH. Now you can re-roll loot, but those are AS usage only and based on the chest, so again, only easier if you spend money or have good RL trade skills.

    What turbine needs to do now is reinvigorate end game, without it this game is slowly dieing, there's no reason to stay and play at cap anymore, there's no reason to stack past lives anymore, there's no difficulty in acquiring high end loot.
    Yes, but what exactly will reinvigorate the game? Most players "cap" is the TR/competitionist journey not raiding; adding 5 "Epic" levels didn't change that. Some past lives are more valuable than before MotU but that was true before MotU also. It just changed what ones were more "valuable."

    -So we are getting a new raid in 2014, seriously this will be too late for many. We need a raid now, Epic Tempests Spine already and make it free to play.
    Not sure I agree with the pack, but players seem to want more raids now, not later.
    -So they are supposedly rewriting the random affixes on items so we will see the multi faceted affixes in the future, maybe or maybe not? We need this now, random loot is now so boring...
    Haven't played sense U19 have you? Random loots is now more valuable than named loot. Something most (vocal minority?) players are complaining about.
    -New named loot is meh, it really, really is. Run a pass over this stuff!
    After your above quote, are you just not sure what you are talking about. I agree though, named loot is "meh" after U19 and has needed a second or third pass for awhile now (FYI, they already did one named item pass on select items).

    Come on Turbine it's time to pull finger, or we will see the ruin of a once great MMO.
    I think they have already done this Although I don't think it has ruined a great MMO, just made it a lot like every other "modern" MMO.

    PS. The enhance pass is solid, but what good is it if we don't have a game to play it with?
    We will agree to disagree Although I prefer to have a game to play, even if the enhancement pass was less than promised.

  9. #9
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops View Post
    That phrase means exactly what I think it means lol.
    I had to look it up, Yup.. fitting

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post

    Haven't played sense U19 have you? Random loots is now more valuable than named loot. Something most (vocal minority?) players are complaining about.
    I have played plenty since U19, what I am saying in regards to random loot is its all very similar, all of the multi affixes we had before U19, eg. Mauling, Obscenity, Wintry and the like are now all gone. So what we have is some very powerful effects, (also ghostbane like on everything) that although most are solid its a very small random loot table in comparison to what we had pre update.
    I understand that Devs have removed this stuff so it can be updated so it scales with level, but I would like to see it's implementation sooner rather than later, as the random loot at present is just so bland.
    I just hope the Devs don't decide that reintroducing this stuff is a waste of time and leave the random loot tables as we have them now.
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  11. #11
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops View Post
    I completely understand the logistics of it, hence why I am asking them to Epic Tempest Spine, the "base" of the raid is already there.
    Early 2014 will be too late to save end game, not to mention the plan to increase the cap to 30....... are they serious with a notion such as this?

    I know there is plenty of threads like this out there, but what are we to do if there is no real end game? Why petition for it of course.
    DDO has an end game. It's called True Reincarnating. Much like real life, the purpose is not to rush to the end, but to enjoy the journey. Think about it, what happens when you TR?

    • You gain more power, and get to apply new knowledge to old situations
    • You get to run all the content in DDO again
    • You collect items and gear that are useful at a variety of levels
    • If you PUG, you get to interact with people at a variety of skill levels, from fresh off Korthos to teh uberz master completionist
    • You set the level of grind you desire
    • You choose when it's over. If you are a slow leveler, you could keep yourself going for years and years just TRing a handful of toons and leveling them in tandem


    meanwhile, what does the end game you speak of (Epic Elites and Raids, I'm guessing) have to offer?
    • By definition, designed for a elite subsection of the player base
      • You will have to obsess over gear and grind out PLs just to reach a level of suck that other people will allow you into their parties

    • It's clique-y. Even if you're good, if you don't know the right people, they won't let you into their raids or help you get your items
    • Fresh people into end game are much rarer than fresh people into the 1-20 circuit
    • You collect Epic/Raid Gear. For what purpose? So you can run harder raids and epics. To get more Epic/Raid Gear. The grind is infinite
      • Not to mention those items are only usable in a small subsection of the whole game

    • The scalability of difficulty is nonexistent. Unlike leveling to 20, which anyone can do running on casual, "end game" means running everything as difficult as possible



    I mean, not that I disagree that it's kind of sucky that only two raids have been released in a year, neither of which was very challenging. But you want it because there's no "end game" to DDO? DDO has end game in spades, if you look in the right places. It's just less of a Skinner box than the average end game.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    DDO has an end game. It's called True Reincarnating. Much like real life, the purpose is not to rush to the end, but to enjoy the journey. Think about it, what happens when you TR?

    • You gain more power, and get to apply new knowledge to old situations
    • You get to run all the content in DDO again


    Which really sucks when it's the same content it was the first time.....and the next...and the next.....and the next.....
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  13. #13
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    I volunteer to let Turbine pull MY finger.

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    Hey Fef

    I understand the sentiment and for some continual TRing is what they enjoy and will continue to enjoy.

    For me it's about creating characters with a certain goal in mind, whether that be a first life character or a multi lived character, (I have a 6th life pure Arti at lvl 28 atm and various other toons with 3 or more lives) so I go ahead and make those characters, TRing when necessary. Where though is the end game for when you have achieved the goal you have set out for your character?

    Sure I can go and TR again or start another toon from scratch, but maybe I would prefer a healthy raid scene that keeps people wanting to play at the lvl 25 - 28 Area, after all why continually TR a character if there is no substance to the top end of the game.

    As a side note, I don't believe that there is a major exclusionary Lvl 20+ scene on Khyber.
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  15. #15
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shores11 View Post
    While I would not mind to see a few of the older quests/raids turned epic. I would rather see the further expansion of "The Forgotten Realms" via more quests and yes another raid or two. I strongly feel and it may not be entirely the fault of Turbine (aka Legal Issues) that they did not start DDO in FR but I think they know that the larger percentage of the player base for a D&D based game prefers FR. This really needs to be the focus of DDO. As for the end game there does need to be more but that is in part because they just extended the end game and I feel the content will catch up eventually.

    The one area of improvement needed is the timeliness of new updates. I have been playing since February 2006 (7+ years) and I am spoiled a bit because updates used to come out every 3-4 months like clockwork. Update 18 in my opinion can not in anyway be considered an update as it was the weakest update in DDO's history and probably should have been held a bit longer. But holding the updates is a big problem in and of itself as they are coming to infrequently. I am satisfied with Update 19 and feel it is a great addition to DDO and look forward to more in the future.

    Part of the problem is the incredible expansion of loot or should I say uber loot. We used to have to use the actual D&D system of allowing loot to drop based on a die roll but players complained, "Why should we have to use a D&D system in a D&D based game"? This resulted in way to much grind and players will quit if you don't make it easier. So DDO did make it easier and started dropping major loot like candy that was better than greensteel and just about anything you could do with the ingredient system (aka scrolls, shards & seals). Players that got their wealth the hard way complained then and eventually the players that didn't like it started complaining. "It's to easy now everyone has what I have, not fair". Now quests are to easy we kill monsters way to fast epic elite is no longer epic elite as it used to be. The game has made it so that healers are almost non-existant and that rogues really have no meaning. Without healers being in most parties barbarians and fighters are starting to become extinct as well.

    Turbine could have easily pushed back and seen the larger vision down the road and planned better on how t show the player base some tough love. But we kept pushing and they gave in, now here we are...

    The new enhancement system(which somehow came with severe lag for me) and the concentration on the worst world ever is pushing me away and to a emulator of a game much older than ddo now that might make some happy seeing me gone it disapoints me that they are leaving the game I came for.

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  16. #16
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    [/LIST]

    Which really sucks when it's the same content it was the first time.....and the next...and the next.....and the next.....
    But you run it once a life, unlike a raid that you'd run twice a week. I used to use a little program that would tell you your quest completions. My most completed quest? DQ2, with over 200 completions across 5 toons. Even litany gets farmed less than the average raid at end game.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops
    Hey Fef

    I understand the sentiment and for some continual TRing is what they enjoy and will continue to enjoy.

    For me it's about creating characters with a certain goal in mind, whether that be a first life character or a multi lived character, (I have a 6th life pure Arti at lvl 28 atm and various other toons with 3 or more lives) so I go ahead and make those characters, TRing when necessary. Where though is the end game for when you have achieved the goal you have set out for your character?
    That i couldn't tell you. My favorite classes are all caster classes, and I'm a slower TR than some, so I haven't finished a toon in that regard. I suppose at that point there's nothing left for you other than TRing for the hell of it or creating new toons, if you aren't going to grind EDs or raids.
    Sure I can go and TR again or start another toon from scratch, but maybe I would prefer a healthy raid scene that keeps people wanting to play at the lvl 25 - 28 Area, after all why continually TR a character if there is no substance to the top end of the game.
    what I was trying to say is that DDO isn't really a top-heavy game. It's more well-distributed with various levels of expertise across all levels. Why does there need to be a substantial grind at cap when there's other things for a player to do who has reached level cap?

    As a side note, I don't believe that there is a major exclusionary Lvl 20+ scene on Khyber.
    I play on Argo. My experiences have been drastically different depending on who I've run with. Some very high end guilds/groups are friendly towards PUGs in their raids. Others will go out of their way to make you feel ostracized from the raid, and won't compensate you or consider you for any roles or loot just based on being an outsider to their group. Which I understand to some degree. But my idea of a friendly, flourishing end game is not one where, after the chests open, there's 5 minutes of silence while everyone sends tells to each other about what they pulled so the PUG doesn't know who's selling what to whom and who's getting passed their fifth SoS shard for an alt while two PUG fighters sit there on their only capped toon.
    Honkin * Diaari * Bazongas


  17. #17
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post

    meanwhile, what does the end game you speak of (Epic Elites and Raids, I'm guessing) have to offer?
    [LIST][*]By definition, designed for a elite subsection of the player base
    • You will have to obsess over gear and grind out PLs just to reach a level of suck that other people will allow you into their parties

    [*]It's clique-y. Even if you're good, if you don't know the right people, they won't let you into their raids or help you get your items[*]Fresh people into end game are much rarer than fresh people into the 1-20 circuit[*]You collect Epic/Raid Gear. For what purpose? So you can run harder raids and epics. To get more Epic/Raid Gear. The grind is infinite
    • Not to mention those items are only usable in a small subsection of the whole game

    Project much?

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