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  1. #21
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Really?

    I don't want an overpowered character, but have you even seen the damage dealt by henshin's abilities? It's downright abysmal; this is on a tier with a weak spellsinger's sonic spells, AT BEST. I'm not asking for sorcerer-style damage, but come on, dealing 15-25 damage for 5 ki when mobs have 3-500 HP is just ridiculous. The tree has such great potential, but it's wasted on half-hearted attempts at a ki-focused monk. A henshin won't even make it to EE. Their ki usage won't even be viable in level 18 content without heavy, heavy emphasis on wisdom and spellpower, and even then they don't have the DC's to make them useful and their damage output would be limited to quarterstaff dps, which, frankly, simply doesn't compare to the unarmed damage of a shintao or the quarterstaff damage of a rogue acrobat.

    All I'm saying is give henshin something to work with.
    Agreed. As stated, the only spell moderately useful is the cauldron and your fire finisher.
    Quivering palm can do damage, but the only other WIS based strike you'll be using would be the Anti Dark/Light moves or if you want to be crazy, Touch of Death and not get any Henshin Capstones, which I feel would be bogus.

    Henshin Mystics get at cap:
    +12 Damage of fire
    +50 Fire/Force Spell Power
    Assuming +10 Quarterstaff- +30 Universal Spell Power
    +10% Fire/Force Spell Crit

    As a comparison, Deepwood Sniper gets a total of 90 Positive Spell Power at the moment, and that's something that will help the DWS in all situations, not just ones where the enemies aren't immune to you.

    Incinerating Wave does 10d6 Damage plus an additional 2 damage per two Monk levels (Max of 20 damage extra at Monk 20). This hits 1-2 times max. A perfect 2 hit situation will result in a total of 80 damage before spell power. Note that this is the very max damage this ability can do, each roll of the d6 being 6.

    Wall of Fire is a staple AoE spell used by arcane casters that can be used with metamagics and ticks many times as long as the enemy is in the flame. The most this can hit in two ticks is 64, which is roughly 15 damage below Incinerating Wave. However as the standard damage is 3-4 ticks, the damage a single wall of fire usually is far greater than Incinerating Wave because of metamagics and more more spell power availability. Wall of Fire is also considerably more useful as it is ranged, is easier to aim, and casts quicker.

    As a Ki move that removes you from melee combat and does less than a cleave, using incinerating wave at all is a poor decision- even when specialized entirely to Fire/Force.

    Ki Bolt is of the same situation. Maximum of 100 damage in a perfect situation. Shurikens would do a considerable amount more DPS even if you're only specced into shurikens a little bit.

    Cauldron of Flame is an odd animal. I have yet to test this, but it looks like they took the cap off of the spell so I guess it could be used to have the Monk sit at the entrance in the Cauldron for 10 minutes and then just kite all the monsters there and one shot everything-
    I don't think that's possible though. While Cauldron does decent damage the movement restriction gives this such an anti-utility issue that it's barely worth using and most definitely shouldn't be used in a party. This has the potential to add an excessive amount of damage, but because the Monk needs to be standing still, this is only useful for bosses while soloing and melees while soloing, and is hilariously countered by casters and archers. As previously stated- the only use I've found for it is either soloing or sitting in the middle of a boss room, letting your party know to stand next to you, and then meditating in the middle of it tanking damage and buffing your party.

    Breath of the Fire Dragon is actually useful, it's max damage being 20d6 or 120 before spell power- this eventually is very outscaled by EDs and higher equipment but can be situationally useful especially when destroying trash, but does become useless at endgame.

    Lighting the Candle doesn't add enough damage to justify the ki loss.
    Void Strike's Pre-reqs are useless- the only one you would use is fire, and with the low damage of your fire spells, the Ki usage does not justify using the elemental strikes.

    The capstones are actually great. Anti-dark and anti-light are extremely useful, and rival the other monk capstones especially since it enables the dark freeze and the light buffs and heal. Anti-light is great before epic levels and the bursty heal spamming will keep you alive forever. The no-save neg levels are also awesome, and you can spam it on bosses or high HP mobs when your quivering palm sucks because you've specced STR to make your QStaff damage acceptable.

    Spell DCs are all or nothing. Going 20 Monk is the only way to make your ki spells scale high enough. Either you go full WIS and get your DC and spell power up and try to make your wimpy spells hit for at least a tiny amount and use Quivering Palm, Freezing the Lifeblood, and Anti-Light for sustain or you go STR or DEX based and use Anti-Dark to debuff and kill and ignore your Ki blasts (which are what a Henshin should be focus on) and just use the light buffs and heals to keep yourself afloat and splash 3 Rogue so you can use DEX to damage or 1-2 Rogue for the attack speed boost.

    You cannot be a pure Henshin how it should be. Every other tree it's possible to spec into purely and still be viable. You will be mostly useless as a pure Henshin.
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  2. #22
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    After playing mine a bit, I've noticed several things:

    1. If you use quarterstaves, you lose out on stunning fist. If you are an unarmed Henshin monk, you lose out on many bonuses Henshin provides for quarterstaves such as increased damage, increased fire/force spellpower, and several Henshin abilities.
    Well almost all monk abilities now work with any MELEE ki weapons and IIRC stunning fist should be too so I'd reccomned bug reporting it

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    2. You'll never have the DC's for your finishers and ki abilities to be competitive in end-game epics. The only way this is even remotely possible is if you take a minimum strength build and totally pump wisdom; I mean like a cleric pump's wisdom, all chips in the pot, no-holds-barred pure wisdom monk.

    3. There are no items (other than +wisdom) that can help your monk DC's. The +3 you get from the Henshin tree is just not enough to even warrant getting. There are also no items that are truly monk-friendly that add fire or force spellpower.
    I half agree with you...yes there is no way to increase your DCs thus will never get end-game or even at level viable DCs but I have no issue with having to be Wis based for it to work...what needs to be done is giving Monks Wisdom to damage with q-staffs


    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    1. Turn Henshin into a true spellcasting monk (like the kind you see in movies and books: a monk breathing fire, levitating off the ground, using kinetic energy, etc). Keep their quarterstaff damage line, by all means, they're still a melee class and need to build ki. Henshin shouldn't be a prestige about a dps class with a few special ki abilities; it should be a monk based on ki abilities with back-up dps with quarterstaves.
    100% agree

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    2. Increase the Henshin's ability to gain and retain ki, but keep these methods in higher tiers of the tree so that Shintao or Ninjas can't abuse them without heavily speccing into it. 5 uses of meditation is great, but they should regenerate on tier 3 of 'Embrace the Void'; not quickly, but maybe 1 every 3 minutes. The most important and powerful Henshin abilities require a use of meditation -- as they should in fact -- but they severely reduce your mobility, limiting their situational use even further than they already are. Sure, Shintao and Ninjas can get this easily, as well, but what use do they have for it other than gaining ki while waiting for things? Beyond level 12 or so, only Henshin can truly make use of meditation.
    I'd like to see a tier 5 ability that lets you move whilst meditating call it "Poetry in Motion" or something

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    3. Give Henshin the ability to use metamagic feats on ki strikes and finishers (and increase ki cost comparatively), or GIVE Henshin ability toggles that work the same way. This should obviously be a tier 5 Henshin ability, preventing Ninjas and Shintao from abusing its uses. This would give some leeway and planning into the build, since tier 5 requires level 12 and prohibits other tier 5 abilities in other trees from being taken. Thus, this would prevent Henshin from being a low level powerhouse (like fire savant sorcerers are right now), but give them better ki usage at the level when ki-based damage abilities begin to wane and decrease in power, improving their performance in this area beyond that of other monks, as they should be.
    I'd say something similar to the PM improved shrouds except have it be improved finishers works like maximize and maybe quicken...enlarge (which is a dumb name btw) on ranged ki attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    4. Change the near pointless elemental debuff ki strikes that Henshin has. In the grand scheme of things, these are next to useless and would be better suited to more useful ki-based abilities. It is unfortunate that, in order to get the void vorpal attack, you need to get all 4 of these abilities.
    Questions? Thoughts?
    I'd be fine if it was "On-hit 10% chance to apply all elemental weaknesses you've taken" with the caveat that once you take void strike you also apply a similar debuff that increases light and negative energy damage.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Well almost all monk abilities now work with any MELEE ki weapons and IIRC stunning fist should be too so I'd reccomned bug reporting it
    SqueakOfDoom reported that while Quivering Palm/ToD/Other monk abilities would work with melee weapons, Stunning Fist will not. It is WAI
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  4. #24
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    SqueakOfDoom reported that while Quivering Palm/ToD/Other monk abilities would work with melee weapons, Stunning Fist will not. It is WAI
    Did he say why? because I see no sense in that.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Did he say why? because I see no sense in that.
    Stunning blow would be the replacement- and Stunning Fist is something that could be easily abused by the new 12 Monk/8 Fighter combo or a druid with flaming scimmies or really a whole bunch of things. Quivering palm can be used ONLY with monk weapons because of the requirement on the fighter Tier 5, so I'm assuming they didn't want everybody stunning everything with every weapon imaginable.
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  6. #26

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    I agree henshin is a bit underpowered but since monk as a class is very overpowered atm...

    /not signed
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  7. #27
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    I agree henshin is a bit underpowered but since monk as a class is very overpowered atm...

    /not signed
    This is like saying a caster cleric is overpowered, so if Warpriest is underpowered we shouldn't pay attention to it, or Archmage is gimped, but we shouldn't support the playstyle because Pale Master is too powerful.

    There were many people including myself incredibly excited for this PrE- just because monks are strong does not mean that one of their PrEs and playstyles should be utterly useless.
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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    This is like saying a caster cleric is overpowered, so if Warpriest is underpowered we shouldn't pay attention to it, or Archmage is gimped, but we shouldn't support the playstyle because Pale Master is too powerful.

    There were many people including myself incredibly excited for this PrE- just because monks are strong does not mean that one of their PrEs and playstyles should be utterly useless.
    Agreed. I'm just saying a nerf is in order before the boost. As it is now, all things considered, henshin monks seams just fine compared to many other classes.
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  9. #29
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    Agreed. I'm just saying a nerf is in order before the boost. As it is now, all things considered, henshin monks seams just fine compared to many other classes.
    Please try one on Lamannia or something before you make this assumption. Being forced to switch from your already suffering PrE because the reason you picked the PrE is no longer viable is not "just fine"

    Fighters, barbs, and other classes have these issues at the moment- but they can't really do a whole lot to buff them because multiclassing is way too powerful at the moment.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    <snip>

    3. There are no items (other than +wisdom) that can help your monk DC's. The +3 you get from the Henshin tree is just not enough to even warrant getting. There are also no items that are truly monk-friendly that add fire or force spellpower.
    What about Ki bolt? While it doesn't add to your dc's, it does reduce your opponents saves by up to 5. that's actually better than +5dc's since any of your fellow party members can take advantage of it.

    Don't know if it is practical; IIRC you would have to spam it for 30 secs on 1 opponent to make maximum use of it. May be useful against orange Bosses to bring their saves low enough that something can get through, but it would have to be tested.

  11. #31
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    HM is pretty great, only issue I have is I had to waste some AP on stuff I don't use at all really just to unlock the good stuff. It's still way better than either pally PrE and there's a lot less wasted APs compared to other trees so don't see the big deal.

  12. #32

    Default My 2 Cents on the Mystics

    I've been watching this thread while playing my pure 16 Mystic like crazy.

    Here's my thing. I've played only divine spellcasters like Clerics. Their offensive spells are damaging but nowhere near those of Wizards and Sorcerers, walking artillery batteries that they are. Yet the Cleric holds up and can even go melee with significant damage.

    My feeling is that the same limitations on Clerics apply to the Mystics.

    A Monk is a Monk. They gain a significant amount of abilities no matter what class tree is played from their base feats. They are a melee character, so we shouldn't expect the devs to retool the class outside of the D&D sources they choose to apply. That said, you have to balance the melee power to the spell damage of any class.

    Mystics don't gain metamagics, but they also have a relatively unlimited source of power to use: ki. This is why the Mystics can get up to 5 Meditations, 3 more than any other Monk, and get additional passive ki regenerations as they level. My experience is that, at level 15 quests with Combustion/Potency +66 rings on, with a Wrath of Sora Kell set going, I'm watching enemies with normal vulnerability to fire and Force damage getting hit with something around 100-150 damage per wave.

    That Wave is in addition to slamming a mob with a 4W Whirlwind Attack. After about 2 or 3 Waves and a few whirlwinds with criticals and glancing blows going off, my mobs are often gone.

    Fighting with a Mystic at my level doesn't seem to be any less challenging than using the Grandmaster of Flowers's Drifting Lotus slam attack. Yep, it's not boosted by spell power. It's ki-powered. It often does 300-450 pure magic damage that hardly anything can resist and knocks down enemies. But in Epic, the Lotus isn't an end-all-be-all killer since the enemies have more HP.

    In short, with good ki management and some general spell power boosts, the Mystic is designed to run mobs ragged. Add in some good doublestrike and cleaving action and elemental form attacks, as well as the really potent Every Light Casts a Shadow to mass neg-level (watch out in neg-leveling your party until it's fixed/explained!) and you have a really powerful character.

    Remember, too, that the Mystic is the ONLY class that can now use EVERY finishing move, Light, Dark or elemental. Until the devs add back a low-level Void Strike, they are the only class tree that can use the Level 10 special finishers. That's a lot of versatility.

    They will be weakest against Fire-immunes, but I've noticed that I get my best spell power in the Impulse area, and devils and dragons are understandably designed as Not to Casually Killed by Joe Player.

    Other challenges I've seen with the Mystics include:

    1. Average HP. They get the general Monk HP and have weaker defenses than the other trees.
    2. Quarterstaves wear out very quickly. If you're used to handwraps, prepare for a shock and a higher repair bill.
    3. Mystics are more gear-dependent, from alchemical potions and staves to AC items.
    4. Mystics have the most challenging ki management outside an experienced Touch-of-Death spamming Ninja Spy.
    5. You have to think more about arcane skills (spell power) as well as traditional weapon damage (non-Monk fighting) as a player to boost damage to both areas. I'm weaker here since I play almost exclusively Monks.


    So to sum up, my take is that the Mystic is surprisingly balanced when you remember that it's still a melee character. When you add in stick and spell damage, the Mystic does work. I'm hoping for a few more abilities too, but so far I've been surprisingly impressed by it.
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  13. #33
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    I've been watching this thread while playing my pure 16 Mystic like crazy.

    Here's my thing. I've played only divine spellcasters like Clerics. Their offensive spells are damaging but nowhere near those of Wizards and Sorcerers, walking artillery batteries that they are. Yet the Cleric holds up and can even go melee with significant damage.

    My feeling is that the same limitations on Clerics apply to the Mystics.

    A Monk is a Monk. They gain a significant amount of abilities no matter what class tree is played from their base feats. They are a melee character, so we shouldn't expect the devs to retool the class outside of the D&D sources they choose to apply. That said, you have to balance the melee power to the spell damage of any class.

    Mystics don't gain metamagics, but they also have a relatively unlimited source of power to use: ki. This is why the Mystics can get up to 5 Meditations, 3 more than any other Monk, and get additional passive ki regenerations as they level. My experience is that, at level 15 quests with Combustion/Potency +66 rings on, with a Wrath of Sora Kell set going, I'm watching enemies with normal vulnerability to fire and Force damage getting hit with something around 100-150 damage per wave.

    That Wave is in addition to slamming a mob with a 4W Whirlwind Attack. After about 2 or 3 Waves and a few whirlwinds with criticals and glancing blows going off, my mobs are often gone.

    Fighting with a Mystic at my level doesn't seem to be any less challenging than using the Grandmaster of Flowers's Drifting Lotus slam attack. Yep, it's not boosted by spell power. It's ki-powered. It often does 300-450 pure magic damage that hardly anything can resist and knocks down enemies. But in Epic, the Lotus isn't an end-all-be-all killer since the enemies have more HP.

    In short, with good ki management and some general spell power boosts, the Mystic is designed to run mobs ragged. Add in some good doublestrike and cleaving action and elemental form attacks, as well as the really potent Every Light Casts a Shadow to mass neg-level (watch out in neg-leveling your party until it's fixed/explained!) and you have a really powerful character.

    Remember, too, that the Mystic is the ONLY class that can now use EVERY finishing move, Light, Dark or elemental. Until the devs add back a low-level Void Strike, they are the only class tree that can use the Level 10 special finishers. That's a lot of versatility.

    They will be weakest against Fire-immunes, but I've noticed that I get my best spell power in the Impulse area, and devils and dragons are understandably designed as Not to Casually Killed by Joe Player.

    Other challenges I've seen with the Mystics include:

    1. Average HP. They get the general Monk HP and have weaker defenses than the other trees.
    2. Quarterstaves wear out very quickly. If you're used to handwraps, prepare for a shock and a higher repair bill.
    3. Mystics are more gear-dependent, from alchemical potions and staves to AC items.
    4. Mystics have the most challenging ki management outside an experienced Touch-of-Death spamming Ninja Spy.
    5. You have to think more about arcane skills (spell power) as well as traditional weapon damage (non-Monk fighting) as a player to boost damage to both areas. I'm weaker here since I play almost exclusively Monks.


    So to sum up, my take is that the Mystic is surprisingly balanced when you remember that it's still a melee character. When you add in stick and spell damage, the Mystic does work. I'm hoping for a few more abilities too, but so far I've been surprisingly impressed by it.

    Obviously, with some effort the henshin can work, but that doesn't negate the fact that there is a ton of wasted space in the tree, and the abilities cost way too much (more than any other tree that I've looked at, in fact) especially for what they do (like the elemental weakness attacks, which are a complete and utter waste of 8 AP). No matter which way you slice it, the tree still falls flat compared to shintao and ninja, mostly in the unique function of the tree itself. Every class has to balance the 'give-and-take' but Henshin simply can't have it like that: it's either strong dps and very weak ki abilities or weak dps and weak ki abilities, as you'll never have the DC's necessary for your ki abilities to function in anything above EN difficulty.

  14. #34
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    as you'll never have the DC's necessary for your ki abilities to function in anything above EN difficulty.
    This-

    You're spending a whole lot of AP and effort to get to the caps, but the only things that you'll have that will be functional past 20 are the passive increases, anti-light/dark moves, and the extra crit. Beyond 20, because your only useful abilities outside of quivering palm are either passives or no-save, there's very little reason not to go full STR Overwhelming Crit/Earth Stance and 18 Mnk/2 Rog or 16/4 for the attack speed+haste boost with Sireth, and just kind of ignore the fact that you're a Monk in general.
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  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Obviously, with some effort the henshin can work, but that doesn't negate the fact that there is a ton of wasted space in the tree, and the abilities cost way too much (more than any other tree that I've looked at, in fact) especially for what they do (like the elemental weakness attacks, which are a complete and utter waste of 8 AP). No matter which way you slice it, the tree still falls flat compared to shintao and ninja, mostly in the unique function of the tree itself. Every class has to balance the 'give-and-take' but Henshin simply can't have it like that: it's either strong dps and very weak ki abilities or weak dps and weak ki abilities, as you'll never have the DC's necessary for your ki abilities to function in anything above EN difficulty.
    My respectful answer is simply, "So?"

    This is a brand new "prestige" path. Ninja and Shintao have had time to mature, as has the Monk class itself. We can't expect perfection out of the gate. Doesn't mean we can't make suggestions--and the thoughts here need to be also sent to the Suggestions forum.

    All the class trees have a specialty. The Mystic can handle trash mobs extremely well and the design appears to reflect this. As with spellcasters, they'll run into limits, such as demons or things immune to this and that. They aren't as strong or resilient as Shintao. They aren't filled with specializations as Ninjas. They are nasty with force and fire damage and quarterstave beat downs.

    I agree that the Elemental Words (moved from the old Ninja enhancements) should likely go in favor of improved spell power or one other attack option. I do not expect the devs to add metamagics because Mystics aren't using magic, nor to see them reach spellcaster-level spell power. But an option to increase it in a monastic way unique to the Henshin but exclusive to others, I can go for that.

    So far, I've been tooling things very well, especially with an unlocked Dreamspitter. Quite the "Woo-Woo" stick that weakens a mob with a whirlwind strike before fire and force eat them.

    But for now, playing the class as it is, I don't see an immediate problem, save one.

    The Henshin is the only thing that gets Void Strike, as I may have mentioned before, which keeps anyone that wants to train dominantly in another tree from using the Level 10 void finishers.

    Give it time. It's pretty good to start and there's room for improvement.
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  16. #36
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    My respectful answer is simply, "So?"

    This is a brand new "prestige" path. Ninja and Shintao have had time to mature, as has the Monk class itself. We can't expect perfection out of the gate. Doesn't mean we can't make suggestions--and the thoughts here need to be also sent to the Suggestions forum.

    All the class trees have a specialty. The Mystic can handle trash mobs extremely well and the design appears to reflect this. As with spellcasters, they'll run into limits, such as demons or things immune to this and that. They aren't as strong or resilient as Shintao. They aren't filled with specializations as Ninjas. They are nasty with force and fire damage and quarterstave beat downs.
    1. Henshin does not handle trash mobs in a unique or powerful way. They handle trash mobs like any other melee handles trash mobs except with the addition of glancing blows like barbarians, thf fighters/paladins and acrobats. In fact, rogue acrobats are often just as strong at using a staff and also attack faster, are much more lenient with stat placement, and as they super-specialize in quarterstaff damage (unlike henshin which is a hybrid) and have sneak attacks, they're simply better at it.

    2. Henshin most certainly are NOT nasty with fire/force ki damage on trash mobs, especially the higher you get where the damage you inflict with them is pitiful in comparison to the mob's HP. As stated before, it's either strong quarterstaff dps and very weak ki damage or weak quarterstaff dps and weak ki damage. You can't have both, and honestly, by looking at the results, trying to go for ki damage is pretty much gimping yourself because, as stated before, you will never have the DC's capable of anything worthwhile in end-game content (if wizards and sorcerers already have some difficulty in end-game epics, henshin won't stand a chance). If you're only going for pure quarterstaff dps, you're ignoring the highlight and purpose of the tree which, quite frankly, falls far short of its goal. It's a mess -- a great idea, to be sure -- but poorly executed. A wisdom-to-damage mod for staves would fix many issues in this arena, but the ki damage will still be low.

    I agree that the Elemental Words (moved from the old Ninja enhancements) should likely go in favor of improved spell power or one other attack option. I do not expect the devs to add metamagics because Mystics aren't using magic, nor to see them reach spellcaster-level spell power. But an option to increase it in a monastic way unique to the Henshin but exclusive to others, I can go for that.
    I don't expect metamagics to be used for henshin mystics, but something similar would be useful. Those elemental words, for all intents and purposes, are useless and need to be remove and replaced. Nobody should use them nor waste their precious ki on them and they certainly do not need to cost 2 AP; that's nothing more than bad development, which further illustrates my point that henshin has a very rushed and incomplete feel. People will say 'well use the flame one to lower the enemy's resistance to fire so you can deal more fire damage with your abilities'. I say 'no, that's very impractical and the majority of mobs will die faster than you can take advantage of this situation, wasting your ki in the process'.

    So far, I've been tooling things very well, especially with an unlocked Dreamspitter. Quite the "Woo-Woo" stick that weakens a mob with a whirlwind strike before fire and force eat them.

    But for now, playing the class as it is, I don't see an immediate problem, save one.

    The Henshin is the only thing that gets Void Strike, as I may have mentioned before, which keeps anyone that wants to train dominantly in another tree from using the Level 10 void finishers.

    Give it time. It's pretty good to start and there's room for improvement.
    The force-based Rahl's Might staff from Mindsunder would be good at level 18.

    I've never seen anyone so happy about void-strike finishers. V-L-V is semi-useful but with such a short duration it's expensive under normal circumstances except for spamming at red/purple boss fights, and judging from how much mystics need and use ki, it's impractical. V-D-V is an oddball, considering most people frown on charming/dominating trash mobs because it slows things down except in the few -- rare -- occasions. So, like most things in the henshin tree, I respond with a resounding 'meh'. I also don't understand why you'd think giving other monks the void strike back would be a good idea; this only serves to weaken an already weak tree.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    1. Henshin does not handle trash mobs in a unique or powerful way. They handle trash mobs like any other melee handles trash mobs except with the addition of glancing blows like barbarians, thf fighters/paladins and acrobats. In fact, rogue acrobats are often just as strong at using a staff and also attack faster, are much more lenient with stat placement, and as they super-specialize in quarterstaff damage (unlike henshin which is a hybrid) and have sneak attacks, they're simply better at it.

    2. Henshin most certainly are NOT nasty with fire/force ki damage on trash mobs, especially the higher you get where the damage you inflict with them is pitiful in comparison to the mob's HP. As stated before, it's either strong quarterstaff dps and very weak ki damage or weak quarterstaff dps and weak ki damage. You can't have both, and honestly, by looking at the results, trying to go for ki damage is pretty much gimping yourself because, as stated before, you will never have the DC's capable of anything worthwhile in end-game content (if wizards and sorcerers already have some difficulty in end-game epics, henshin won't stand a chance). If you're only going for pure quarterstaff dps, you're ignoring the highlight and purpose of the tree which, quite frankly, falls far short of its goal. It's a mess -- a great idea, to be sure -- but poorly executed. A wisdom-to-damage mod for staves would fix many issues in this arena, but the ki damage will still be low.



    I don't expect metamagics to be used for henshin mystics, but something similar would be useful. Those elemental words, for all intents and purposes, are useless and need to be remove and replaced. Nobody should use them nor waste their precious ki on them and they certainly do not need to cost 2 AP; that's nothing more than bad development, which further illustrates my point that henshin has a very rushed and incomplete feel. People will say 'well use the flame one to lower the enemy's resistance to fire so you can deal more fire damage with your abilities'. I say 'no, that's very impractical and the majority of mobs will die faster than you can take advantage of this situation, wasting your ki in the process'.



    The force-based Rahl's Might staff from Mindsunder would be good at level 18.

    I've never seen anyone so happy about void-strike finishers. V-L-V is semi-useful but with such a short duration it's expensive under normal circumstances except for spamming at red/purple boss fights, and judging from how much mystics need and use ki, it's impractical. V-D-V is an oddball, considering most people frown on charming/dominating trash mobs because it slows things down except in the few -- rare -- occasions. So, like most things in the henshin tree, I respond with a resounding 'meh'. I also don't understand why you'd think giving other monks the void strike back would be a good idea; this only serves to weaken an already weak tree.
    Funny you mentioned that: I just fully unlocked both a Force-based Rahl's Might and a Dreamspitter. They rock. I've been seeing 300+ crits occasionally with 200+ ones regularly.

    I agree on Moment of Clarity; I use it in Part 1 of the Shroud but not many other places. The Curse of the Void, on the other hand, is awesome to turn mobs against itself and has no limit to the number you can charm. I know this is a matter of gameplay in terms of its usefulness, but it is useful. I used that often in solo play. If you're in a party, it might not be as useful or even detrimental.

    Often, in keeping the Monk guide to date, I have to remember that my playstyle isn't the same as others, nor is it the best or worse. I try to ensure to document all options to pure Monk skills, even if I cannot or will not play them.

    The "best" is what works for you, but it's good to keep an open mind in how it could be used, even if it's not your thing. Void attacks are great in that few things have resistance to that and a few nasties (like Will-o-Wisps) that hurt party members with low reflex are very vulnerable to it. Eveningstar quests are filled with those damn things. Dishing LOTS of Force damage is what I like about Mystics so far: carrying a Dreamspitter or Rahl's Might to magnify that is more fuel for the fire.

    As for ki, as with many Monks, the higher you level, the better ki management works. I just grabbed an Alchemist's Pendant to help more to this, and by L20 I shouldn't require Fire stance all the time, I hope. But Mystics really chew the ki up. But key, we make more.

    Much of the other things you note are playstyle related. I guess the class tree isn't something that works for you. Come back to it when it is and enjoy the refreshed things in the other trees. I'm sure it will improve.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
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  18. #38
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    Funny you mentioned that: I just fully unlocked both a Force-based Rahl's Might and a Dreamspitter. They rock. I've been seeing 300+ crits occasionally with 200+ ones regularly.

    I agree on Moment of Clarity; I use it in Part 1 of the Shroud but not many other places. The Curse of the Void, on the other hand, is awesome to turn mobs against itself and has no limit to the number you can charm. I know this is a matter of gameplay in terms of its usefulness, but it is useful. I used that often in solo play. If you're in a party, it might not be as useful or even detrimental.

    Often, in keeping the Monk guide to date, I have to remember that my playstyle isn't the same as others, nor is it the best or worse. I try to ensure to document all options to pure Monk skills, even if I cannot or will not play them.

    The "best" is what works for you, but it's good to keep an open mind in how it could be used, even if it's not your thing. Void attacks are great in that few things have resistance to that and a few nasties (like Will-o-Wisps) that hurt party members with low reflex are very vulnerable to it. Eveningstar quests are filled with those damn things. Dishing LOTS of Force damage is what I like about Mystics so far: carrying a Dreamspitter or Rahl's Might to magnify that is more fuel for the fire.

    As for ki, as with many Monks, the higher you level, the better ki management works. I just grabbed an Alchemist's Pendant to help more to this, and by L20 I shouldn't require Fire stance all the time, I hope. But Mystics really chew the ki up. But key, we make more.

    Much of the other things you note are playstyle related. I guess the class tree isn't something that works for you. Come back to it when it is and enjoy the refreshed things in the other trees. I'm sure it will improve.
    "and by L20 I shouldn't require Fire stance all the time"

    Assuming you haven't hit level 20 on your Henshin yet- Please reevaluate after you do. All that you have in anything but EN after level 20 from the henshin tree is:
    Competence Bonus to Crit
    Void IV
    Anti-Dark/Light
    Some improved Ki regen
    Lighting the Candle
    Some fire resistance

    Everything else you get is useless because your DCs will not be high enough to use your Ki abilities and your Ki is better spent elsewhere. There are no feats or anything you can take that will cause your Ki abilities to be a viable use of ki at this point, and you've essentially turned into a rogue acrobat with far less DPS and a tiny bit more utility.

    The point of Henshin was to make a trash destroyer, but after 20, which is where you'll spend a large amount of time, running any sort of epics with a Henshin will make you feel like a gimpy acrobat, because at this point that's all you are.
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  19. #39
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    "and by L20 I shouldn't require Fire stance all the time"

    Assuming you haven't hit level 20 on your Henshin yet- Please reevaluate after you do. All that you have in anything but EN after level 20 from the henshin tree is:
    Competence Bonus to Crit
    Void IV
    Anti-Dark/Light
    Some improved Ki regen
    Lighting the Candle
    Some fire resistance

    Everything else you get is useless because your DCs will not be high enough to use your Ki abilities and your Ki is better spent elsewhere. There are no feats or anything you can take that will cause your Ki abilities to be a viable use of ki at this point, and you've essentially turned into a rogue acrobat with far less DPS and a tiny bit more utility.

    The point of Henshin was to make a trash destroyer, but after 20, which is where you'll spend a large amount of time, running any sort of epics with a Henshin will make you feel like a gimpy acrobat, because at this point that's all you are.
    That's what I've been saying. I'm sure some people will say 'well enjoy leveling as a henshin in the heroic levels'. That is like completely ignoring the fact that for the end half of the game, you're basically going to be gimped. That's no flaw of the player, that's a flaw of the tree, and it needs to be fixed.

    My Henshin is currently sitting at level 12, simply because at that early a level, I can already see the makings of a gimped acrobat and it depresses me. Of all the new class enhancements in the recent pass, henshin was what I was looking forward to the most, and henshin was the one that disappointed me the most. If nothing happens to henshin within the next couple updates, I'm simply going to get him to 20 and TR back into an acrobat, which was much stronger in almost every way.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    That's what I've been saying. I'm sure some people will say 'well enjoy leveling as a henshin in the heroic levels'. That is like completely ignoring the fact that for the end half of the game, you're basically going to be gimped. That's no flaw of the player, that's a flaw of the tree, and it needs to be fixed.

    My Henshin is currently sitting at level 12, simply because at that early a level, I can already see the makings of a gimped acrobat and it depresses me. Of all the new class enhancements in the recent pass, henshin was what I was looking forward to the most, and henshin was the one that disappointed me the most. If nothing happens to henshin within the next couple updates, I'm simply going to get him to 20 and TR back into an acrobat, which was much stronger in almost every way.
    It's more a flaw of the enhancement pass than of this particular tree. Since you're only level 12 you can probably fit in 3 rogue and 2 fighter or something without too much pain, if fighter tactics don't work with palm then there's always 2 ranger/fvs/etc. Heck, /2 rogue/3druid is pretty solid too. Pure any class is generally weak when you look at the alternatives.

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