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  1. #1
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Default Henshin needs a revamp

    After playing mine a bit, I've noticed several things:

    1. If you use quarterstaves, you lose out on stunning fist. If you are an unarmed Henshin monk, you lose out on many bonuses Henshin provides for quarterstaves such as increased damage, increased fire/force spellpower, and several Henshin abilities.

    2. You'll never have the DC's for your finishers and ki abilities to be competitive in end-game epics. The only way this is even remotely possible is if you take a minimum strength build and totally pump wisdom; I mean like a cleric pump's wisdom, all chips in the pot, no-holds-barred pure wisdom monk.

    3. There are no items (other than +wisdom) that can help your monk DC's. The +3 you get from the Henshin tree is just not enough to even warrant getting. There are also no items that are truly monk-friendly that add fire or force spellpower.

    So what does this leave you as? I don't see it being anything but a quarterstaff-using monk with a few gimmicky (and that's putting it lightly) fire/force abilities or an excuse to multiclass a rogue acrobat. The tree needs serious work. In many ways, it feels like the dump tree for monks, the same as the rogue mechanic or a protection cleric trees: useful abilities to all rogues/clerics, but nobody serious about rogues/clerics is going to be a full 20 rogue mechanic/protection cleric as the tree lacks anything resembling power on the level of assassin/acrobat or radiant/disciple. A few (interesting) suggestions:

    1. Turn Henshin into a true spellcasting monk (like the kind you see in movies and books: a monk breathing fire, levitating off the ground, using kinetic energy, etc). Keep their quarterstaff damage line, by all means, they're still a melee class and need to build ki. Henshin shouldn't be a prestige about a dps class with a few special ki abilities; it should be a monk based on ki abilities with back-up dps with quarterstaves.

    2. Increase the Henshin's ability to gain and retain ki, but keep these methods in higher tiers of the tree so that Shintao or Ninjas can't abuse them without heavily speccing into it. 5 uses of meditation is great, but they should regenerate on tier 3 of 'Embrace the Void'; not quickly, but maybe 1 every 3 minutes. The most important and powerful Henshin abilities require a use of meditation -- as they should in fact -- but they severely reduce your mobility, limiting their situational use even further than they already are. Sure, Shintao and Ninjas can get this easily, as well, but what use do they have for it other than gaining ki while waiting for things? Beyond level 12 or so, only Henshin can truly make use of meditation.

    3. Give Henshin the ability to use metamagic feats on ki strikes and finishers (and increase ki cost comparatively), or GIVE Henshin ability toggles that work the same way. This should obviously be a tier 5 Henshin ability, preventing Ninjas and Shintao from abusing its uses. This would give some leeway and planning into the build, since tier 5 requires level 12 and prohibits other tier 5 abilities in other trees from being taken. Thus, this would prevent Henshin from being a low level powerhouse (like fire savant sorcerers are right now), but give them better ki usage at the level when ki-based damage abilities begin to wane and decrease in power, improving their performance in this area beyond that of other monks, as they should be.

    4. Change the near pointless elemental debuff ki strikes that Henshin has. In the grand scheme of things, these are next to useless and would be better suited to more useful ki-based abilities. It is unfortunate that, in order to get the void vorpal attack, you need to get all 4 of these abilities.

    Questions? Thoughts?
    Last edited by HastyPudding; 09-10-2013 at 01:51 PM.

  2. #2

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    YES!

    here is my feedback

    the line leading up to void strike should be a progressive improvement of the standard monk fire attack that adds force fire damage + vulnerability (why do you need the frost or acid or electric vuln strikes?)

    I am currently playing a henshin with pastlife druid (not the free one) so I can summon firesword scimitars... instead of the staff line I think it would be cool if Henshin could summon(a la holy sword, or maybe you choose a weapon and stick with it) a wisdom damage mod force,fire,force/fire weapon of choice and improve them in addition to the level progression with increased die, on hit effects(based on stance?), etc... with a +1 crit multiplier at tier 5.

    still would not be a stunning monk but you could go all wisdom and still have decent DPS (except against fire/force resistant/immune stuff)

    still I do like my current firesword henshin, it's one of the coolest flavor toons I have made so far
    Last edited by Rathic; 09-10-2013 at 04:19 PM.
    Formerly Rathic of harvestgain

  3. #3
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathic View Post
    YES!

    here is my feedback

    the line leading up to void strike should be a progressive improvement of the standard monk fire attack that adds force fire damage + vulnerability (why do you need the frost or acid or electric vuln strikes?)

    I am currently playing a henshin with pastlife druid (not the free one) so I can summon firesword scimitars... instead of the staff line I think it would be cool if Henshin could summon(a la holy sword, or maybe you choose a weapon and stick with it) a wisdom damage mod force,fire,force/fire weapon of choice and improve them in addition to the level progression with increased die, on hit effects(based on stance?), etc... with a +1 crit multiplier at tier 5.

    still would not be a stunning monk but you could go all wisdom and still have decent DPS (except against fire/force resistant/immune stuff)

    still I do like my current firesword henshin, it's one of the coolest flavor toons I have made so far
    I do like the idea of a wisdom-to-attack/damage mod for Henshin. That would encourage wisdom builds, which, let's face it, are pretty much essential if you ever expect to have even slightly respectable DC's for your ki abilities. The core abilities needs more fire/force spellpower, as well; 50 is just not enough, and let's face it, the core abilities for Henshin are weak.

    Yes, the elemental debuffs in the void line are useless; even the fire one has severely limited use.
    Last edited by HastyPudding; 09-10-2013 at 07:08 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    How about changing the elemental vulnerability attacks into toggles that change the fire damage portion of the Henshin abilities and Breath of the Fire Dragon fininsher into different elements? One of the problems with Henshin is that most of the damage is fire, and that fire isn't always the best element to use.

    Also, make it so that the tree provides universal spellpower.
    Last edited by HatsuharuZ; 09-10-2013 at 07:49 PM.

  5. #5
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post

    2. You'll never have the DC's for your finishers and ki abilities to be competitive in end-game epics. The only way this is even remotely possible is if you take a minimum strength build and totally pump wisdom; I mean like a cleric pump's wisdom, all chips in the pot, no-holds-barred pure wisdom monk.
    While you do have some valid points, I just don't get the logic here. If you want to use DC based abilities at endgame, you have to work extremely hard for it (for EE at least). Whether you are a wizard, sorc, arty, bard or even a monk. Yes there is some room to add a few more DC boosters in the trees, but suggesting that a str based monk should be totally capable of stunning and landing finishers as well as a wisdom based monk is about as silly as asking for a str based melee sorc to be able to land finger of death reliably in epic elite content. The current EE endgame does not leave any room for DC abilities to be viable without extreme devotion to the main stat required for the ability. Monks don't get a pass. You want to be the best with your abilities? Max wisdom. Also suggesting that a max wisdom monk will have a "minimum strength" is also silly. Str would quite possibly be your secondary stat or tertiary behind con possibly. There are various ways to build it. Max str is not always optimal.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    I do like the idea of a wisdom-to-attack/damage mod for Henshin. That would encourage wisdom builds, which, let's face it, are pretty much essential if you ever expect to have even slightly respectable DC's for your ki abilities. The core abilities needs more fire/force spellpower, as well; 50 is just not enough, and let's face it, the core abilities for Henshin are weak.

    Yes, the elemental debuffs in the void line are useless; even the fire one has severely limited use.
    Let's face it, wisdom monks are essential. No other sort of monk is even as remotely competitive. Str monks, BAH!

  7. #7
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Let's face it, wisdom monks are essential. No other sort of monk is even as remotely competitive. Str monks, BAH!
    Does anyone even build str or dex build monks anymore? I haven't seen one in a very very long time.

  8. #8
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Let's face it, wisdom monks are essential. No other sort of monk is even as remotely competitive. Str monks, BAH!
    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Does anyone even build str or dex build monks anymore? I haven't seen one in a very very long time.
    I built my Shintao as a strength-based monk for outright damage with a decent stunning fist DC (mid 50's). He does more raw damage, even though his stunning fist lacks, and when stunning fist does connect, the extra damage I get out of it is quite nice. I had recently contemplated LRing him into a high wisdom build and simply getting enough base strength for power attack and such, essentially turning him into a stunbot, but the lack of damage concerns me as being not enough to make a dent in mobs. What's the point in even attacking mobs with below 30 strength or so, wouldn't you be dealing cleric healbot type damage?

    So, you're telling me that monks nowadays pump every stat point into wisdom and become stunbots/living crowd control and nothing else? I was not aware of this...



    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    While you do have some valid points, I just don't get the logic here. If you want to use DC based abilities at endgame, you have to work extremely hard for it (for EE at least). Whether you are a wizard, sorc, arty, bard or even a monk. Yes there is some room to add a few more DC boosters in the trees, but suggesting that a str based monk should be totally capable of stunning and landing finishers as well as a wisdom based monk is about as silly as asking for a str based melee sorc to be able to land finger of death reliably in epic elite content. The current EE endgame does not leave any room for DC abilities to be viable without extreme devotion to the main stat required for the ability. Monks don't get a pass. You want to be the best with your abilities? Max wisdom. Also suggesting that a max wisdom monk will have a "minimum strength" is also silly. Str would quite possibly be your secondary stat or tertiary behind con possibly. There are various ways to build it. Max str is not always optimal.
    When did I suggest anything concerning str-based monks having the DC's of a pure wisdom monk? You obviously need high wisdom to have even close to reliable DC's as a monk, and strength is one of the stats that is going to have to 'take a backseat' to wisdom. By maxing wisdom (like the cleric example) you would have to start with a base 18 wisdom, at least, and every level up point going into wisdom and taking all wisdom enhancements you can get (human would be good with this), not to mention tomes, items, and everything else with wisdom you can find. Even then it's not going to be reliable, because monks do not have access to such feats as 'evocation focus' or make use of spell focus items to increase the DC's of finisher/ki strike moves.

    Doing this 'max wisdom' build right now is, quite frankly, pointless, as Henshin simply does not have the capability to have high performance in the ki/finisher arena; they're barely a cut above Shintao and Ninjas. Thus, I say Henshin needs to be 'redone' to suit the needs of its abilities. The only way pure wisdom works is if you're going Shintao or an unarmed Ninja.

  9. #9
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    I built my Shintao as a strength-based monk for outright damage with a decent stunning fist DC (mid 50's). He does more raw damage, even though his stunning fist lacks, and when stunning fist does connect, the extra damage I get out of it is quite nice. I had recently contemplated LRing him into a high wisdom build and simply getting enough base strength for power attack and such, essentially turning him into a stunbot, but the lack of damage concerns me as being not enough to make a dent in mobs. What's the point in even attacking mobs with below 30 strength or so, wouldn't you be dealing cleric healbot type damage?

    So, you're telling me that monks nowadays pump every stat point into wisdom and become stunbots/living crowd control and nothing else? I was not aware of this...





    When did I suggest anything concerning str-based monks having the DC's of a pure wisdom monk? You obviously need high wisdom to have even close to reliable DC's as a monk, and strength is one of the stats that is going to have to 'take a backseat' to wisdom. By maxing wisdom (like the cleric example) you would have to start with a base 18 wisdom, at least, and every level up point going into wisdom and taking all wisdom enhancements you can get (human would be good with this), not to mention tomes, items, and everything else with wisdom you can find. Even then it's not going to be reliable, because monks do not have access to such feats as 'evocation focus' or make use of spell focus items to increase the DC's of finisher/ki strike moves.

    Doing this 'max wisdom' build right now is, quite frankly, pointless, as Henshin simply does not have the capability to have high performance in the ki/finisher arena; they're barely a cut above Shintao and Ninjas. Thus, I say Henshin needs to be 'redone' to suit the needs of its abilities. The only way pure wisdom works is if you're going Shintao or an unarmed Ninja.
    16/12/14/8/18/8 36 pt build

    all level ups to wis

    18 base
    5 tome
    7
    3 monk enhancments
    1 human enhancement
    2 capstone (henshin or shintao)
    2 ship
    2 yugo
    11 item
    3 insightful
    1 exceptional
    4 stance
    59 wisdom sustainable might be able to get 60 with 4 monk enhancements

    16 base
    5 tome
    1 human
    2 ship
    2 yugo
    11 item
    3 insightful
    1 exceptional
    -2 stance
    5 primal scream

    42 strength sustainable

    With monks high attack speed this is still very effective.

  10. #10
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    The thing that baffles me about Heshin is that back in the day when I was running ToD (When the cap was 20) the impression I got of Henshin from the descriptions on the items was that it was an Elemental Monk. I had images of using elemental spell like abilities fueled by Ki instead of Spell Points. I even debated putting different Elements on two rings and getting the other two elements on wraps to be doing all elements at once per hit.

    Then they brought out Henshin and it's all Fire and Force Damage.

    Where's the Cold?

    Where's the Electric?

    Where's the Acid?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    I built my Shintao as a strength-based monk for outright damage with a decent stunning fist DC (mid 50's). He does more raw damage, even though his stunning fist lacks, and when stunning fist does connect, the extra damage I get out of it is quite nice. I had recently contemplated LRing him into a high wisdom build and simply getting enough base strength for power attack and such, essentially turning him into a stunbot, but the lack of damage concerns me as being not enough to make a dent in mobs. What's the point in even attacking mobs with below 30 strength or so, wouldn't you be dealing cleric healbot type damage?

    So, you're telling me that monks nowadays pump every stat point into wisdom and become stunbots/living crowd control and nothing else? I was not aware of this...
    With epic destinies adding a lot of damage going a strength build just doesn't add as much as it used to. Maybe I just build my monks weird but no matter what type I'm doing (str, dex or wis I have done all 3) my strength always starts 14-16 depending on how many tr's the character has. So even with a str based race and lvl ups into strength the difference in their strength wasn't very large. At lvl cap these days that is a difference of 8 strength (7 lvl ups + 1 more from racial cause humans/helfs can get +1 str). You could get a little more if you are horc and started your str higher than a 16 but that's sacrificing a lot of build points to get there. All my monks had the same +strength from gear and all strength buffs were available as well. +4 hit/damage vs 3-4 ac, 3-4 dc's on monk related abilities which is almost all of them and 3-4 will saves.
    You can add the +4 str from fire stance as well if you wanted but the double strike from wind stance or the crit multiplier, ac and prr from earth are better in my mind so even if I made a strength based monk I wouldn't be in fire stance.

    With a wisdom based monk these days I'm able to get my stunning fist dc's into the low 70's with quivering palms in the high 60's with a 18 monk/2 fighter build. I have rarely seen a stunning fist fail and quivering palms work on most things in EH stormhorns and about half the time in EE. Have sense weakness twisted and no mercy from ninja spy for a lot of extra damage to helpless enemies so I'm still able to do a lot of damage to everything I'm stunning.

    Stunning fist:
    Base: 10
    Wis mod: 20
    +stun item: 10
    +exceptional combat mastery: 5
    +half char lvl: 14
    fighter tactics: 3
    Legendary tactics: 6
    GMOF: 3
    fighter past lifex1: 1

    Total 72 + -3 fort saves from 1 imp sunder.

    Quivering palm
    Base: 10
    Wis mod: 20
    + sunder item: 10
    exceptional combat mastery: 5
    +half monk lvl: 9
    fighter tactics: 3
    Legendary tactics: 6
    GMOF: 3
    fighter past lifex1: 1

    Total: 67 + -3 from 1 imp sunder

    Those will get higher if I ever get my hands on the higher +stun/sunder items.

  12. #12
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    -snip-
    He said it right.
    My theory is simple. 10 dmg/hit (at a stretch!), or 4 to stunning fist DC (20% higher chance to land). Seeming helpless is 1.5*dmg, that's typically better - by a long shot. (It's 2.1*dmg for me, making it even more worth it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding
    So, you're telling me that monks nowadays pump every stat point into wisdom and become stunbots/living crowd control and nothing else? I was not aware of this...
    Every monk I know and every monk I build is. The 50% helpless (more with sense weakness+show no mercy) means much more than more dmg mod. My unarmed palemaster breaks that rule - slightly. I got bored enough to put 2 levels up into str for overwhelming crit. (Mainly because I can.)
    The rest? Pure wisdom, with every +tactics I can get my hands on.
    By maxing wisdom (like the cleric example) you would have to start with a base 18 wisdom, at least, and every level up point going into wisdom and taking all wisdom enhancements you can get (human would be good with this), not to mention tomes, items, and everything else with wisdom you can find. Even then it's not going to be reliable, because monks do not have access to such feats as 'evocation focus' or make use of spell focus items to increase the DC's of finisher/ki strike moves.
    Finisher/ki strike moves were always sub-par, still are. Stunning fist alone makes a max amount of wisdom worth it. I don't want Henshin changed though, I quite like the staff focus - if you just want the strikes to be buffed, I'll agree to that.

  13. #13
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    He said it right.
    My theory is simple. 10 dmg/hit (at a stretch!), or 4 to stunning fist DC (20% higher chance to land). Seeming helpless is 1.5*dmg, that's typically better - by a long shot. (It's 2.1*dmg for me, making it even more worth it.)


    Every monk I know and every monk I build is. The 50% helpless (more with sense weakness+show no mercy) means much more than more dmg mod. My unarmed palemaster breaks that rule - slightly. I got bored enough to put 2 levels up into str for overwhelming crit. (Mainly because I can.)
    The rest? Pure wisdom, with every +tactics I can get my hands on.


    Finisher/ki strike moves were always sub-par, still are. Stunning fist alone makes a max amount of wisdom worth it. I don't want Henshin changed though, I quite like the staff focus - if you just want the strikes to be buffed, I'll agree to that.
    Well yeah, I like that Henshin uses quarterstaves (fuels the whole mystic thing, anyway). It's just that yes, the ki abilities need a serious boost if they're going to be anything other than a gimmick (like the poorly executed cleric protection tree or the alchemical traps from the rogue mechanic). Henshin needs to be able to boost ki strikes and finishers far beyond that of other monks, otherwise there's just no justification of using a staff, using ki finishers, or even spending more than a few cursory points in the tree. 50 spellpower and +3 DC's doesn't cut it. Double that and it might -- just might -- become close to approaching viable.

    So, how would a wisdom build work on a Henshin, seeing as Henshin has more reason to go pure wisdom than any other monk. Using quarterstaves, it seems a bit awkward, but several key Henshin abilities require a staff (like the doublestrike proc, an entire line of damage, and boosting spellpower). I'm not sure how wielding a staff with average strength will do, and not be able to make up for it in ki usage, not to mention flame stance vastly increases ki generation, which a Henshin needs a lot of to function in its role.

  14. #14
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Honestly as optimistic a player as I am, I can't find any room to deny that Henshin Mystic needs some help, as much as I want to roll one up sometimes. So, uh, here's my ideas, see if you like them or not.

    1. The type of damage you do is Force + your stance element. So if you're in water stance, you deal cold damage. Fire stance, fire damage. Earth stance, physical damage (since monks don't seem to be fond of acid) and of course air stance is electric. No stance active would just apply more force damage. Water stance would obviously be ideal for overcoming saves, but this still makes the other stances useful.

    2. Mystics can channel the power of the elements through their quarter staves, effectively dealing additional elemental damage based on their Wisdom stat. It's a straight increase. If you have a +8 Wisdom modifier, you deal 8 additional elemental damage. Or if you're in earth stance, you deal 8 additional physical damage.

    3. An enhancement that depends on having fists of light or fists of darkness. If you have Fists of Light, you get an enhancement that more or less lets you fling a ball of positive energy ki at an ally for a ki cost. (A single target Healing Ki, basically, which gives Shintao Light Monks still some usability) If you have Fists of Darkness, you get the ability to fling a ball of negative energy ki at an enemy... or a friendly undead. Including yourself if you're a Pale Master.

    4. Of course, points in Shintao grants Universal Spell Power, maybe even in addition to Fire/Force. Though perhaps JUST USP would be best.

    Of course, the disclaimer is that I'm merely basing this off of what I've read from what people say, I have no idea if what I suggested would even theoretically help, but it can't harm anything to throw it out there, right? .... Right?
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

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  15. #15
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Honestly as optimistic a player as I am, I can't find any room to deny that Henshin Mystic needs some help, as much as I want to roll one up sometimes. So, uh, here's my ideas, see if you like them or not.

    1. The type of damage you do is Force + your stance element. So if you're in water stance, you deal cold damage. Fire stance, fire damage. Earth stance, physical damage (since monks don't seem to be fond of acid) and of course air stance is electric. No stance active would just apply more force damage. Water stance would obviously be ideal for overcoming saves, but this still makes the other stances useful.

    2. Mystics can channel the power of the elements through their quarter staves, effectively dealing additional elemental damage based on their Wisdom stat. It's a straight increase. If you have a +8 Wisdom modifier, you deal 8 additional elemental damage. Or if you're in earth stance, you deal 8 additional physical damage.

    3. An enhancement that depends on having fists of light or fists of darkness. If you have Fists of Light, you get an enhancement that more or less lets you fling a ball of positive energy ki at an ally for a ki cost. (A single target Healing Ki, basically, which gives Shintao Light Monks still some usability) If you have Fists of Darkness, you get the ability to fling a ball of negative energy ki at an enemy... or a friendly undead. Including yourself if you're a Pale Master.

    4. Of course, points in Shintao grants Universal Spell Power, maybe even in addition to Fire/Force. Though perhaps JUST USP would be best.

    Of course, the disclaimer is that I'm merely basing this off of what I've read from what people say, I have no idea if what I suggested would even theoretically help, but it can't harm anything to throw it out there, right? .... Right?

    1. An interesting idea, but I think earth stance would be abused for its generality. It would have to be acid damage, seeing as physical or untyped would be deemed 'overpowered' and overused, especially given what earth stance already adds to physical attacks.

    2. I like this idea. You could even make a passive ability in the tree that adds a flat rate per tier, like 1d4/2d4/3d4.

    3. There's something similar in the tier 5 abilities for Henshin. I do like the idea of a positive/negative line, though. You could even add in light damage to the positive line and negative level drain to the negative line. Lots of possibilities here.

    4. Shintao grants positive energy spellpower, not universal, and it's a flat rate per core enhancement. I do like the idea of Henshin adding maybe 0.75 universal spellpower per point spent in the tree.

  16. #16
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Sorry, I meant to type 'Henshin' instead of 'Shintao' in that last bit there. Ah-whoops.

    I'll defer to people who have more experience, of course.
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  17. #17
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Henshin does need a rework. The concepts they've implemented are loosely based on a standard PnP henshin but it doesn't make it right for this game.

    Quarterstaff damage is too low, unless you choose to forgo all the other concepts of the henshin.
    The spell damage is hilariously bad. You can't metamagic anything and even when you're fully invested in the tree, Cauldron is the only one worth using as long as you just want to hold the attack button and spin your camera around.
    The hybrid concept is cool, but you won't be doing anything. Henshins as they are currently are betting going halfling for the companion buff, and then sitting in the middle of the fight and buffing everybody with focus while using cauldron as they attempt to tank with embrace the void. You can do that three times per rest, but the DPS drop is staggering.
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  18. #18
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    Henshin does need a rework. The concepts they've implemented are loosely based on a standard PnP henshin but it doesn't make it right for this game.

    Quarterstaff damage is too low, unless you choose to forgo all the other concepts of the henshin.
    The spell damage is hilariously bad. You can't metamagic anything and even when you're fully invested in the tree, Cauldron is the only one worth using as long as you just want to hold the attack button and spin your camera around.
    The hybrid concept is cool, but you won't be doing anything. Henshins as they are currently are betting going halfling for the companion buff, and then sitting in the middle of the fight and buffing everybody with focus while using cauldron as they attempt to tank with embrace the void. You can do that three times per rest, but the DPS drop is staggering.
    The quarterstaff damage is actually part of the problem. In order to have decent damage you need strength, but your ki abilities (the main focus of the tree) are based completely on wisdom. It's pretty much you gain in one part you lose in another, which is okay for a class with different trees, but horrible for a single tree. All parts in a tree should work in harmony with each other (like rogue acrobat or the different sorcerer savants). Henshin's clearly does not, and while having high wisdom increases ki DC's and your overall usefulness with ki, the damage they deal through ki is terrible and simply not worth it, making Henshin nothing more than a monk with a staff and no stunning fist and a couple near-useless ki abilities. A wisdom-to-damage mod would fix a large portion of the trouble in this tree.

    The fact that they added spell critical to the henshin's core enhancements and ignored the other glaring flaws makes me think that nothing will ever, ever be done about henshin's mediocrity. I had such high hopes for this prestige, which are now dashed away.
    Last edited by HastyPudding; 09-23-2013 at 02:51 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    After playing mine a bit, I've noticed several things:

    1. If you use quarterstaves, you lose out on stunning fist. If you are an unarmed Henshin monk, you lose out on many bonuses Henshin provides for quarterstaves such as increased damage, increased fire/force spellpower, and several Henshin abilities.

    2. You'll never have the DC's for your finishers and ki abilities to be competitive in end-game epics. The only way this is even remotely possible is if you take a minimum strength build and totally pump wisdom; I mean like a cleric pump's wisdom, all chips in the pot, no-holds-barred pure wisdom monk.

    3. There are no items (other than +wisdom) that can help your monk DC's. The +3 you get from the Henshin tree is just not enough to even warrant getting. There are also no items that are truly monk-friendly that add fire or force spellpower.

    So what does this leave you as? I don't see it being anything but a quarterstaff-using monk with a few gimmicky (and that's putting it lightly) fire/force abilities or an excuse to multiclass a rogue acrobat. The tree needs serious work. In many ways, it feels like the dump tree for monks, the same as the rogue mechanic or a protection cleric trees: useful abilities to all rogues/clerics, but nobody serious about rogues/clerics is going to be a full 20 rogue mechanic/protection cleric as the tree lacks anything resembling power on the level of assassin/acrobat or radiant/disciple. A few (interesting) suggestions:

    1. Turn Henshin into a true spellcasting monk (like the kind you see in movies and books: a monk breathing fire, levitating off the ground, using kinetic energy, etc). Keep their quarterstaff damage line, by all means, they're still a melee class and need to build ki. Henshin shouldn't be a prestige about a dps class with a few special ki abilities; it should be a monk based on ki abilities with back-up dps with quarterstaves.

    2. Increase the Henshin's ability to gain and retain ki, but keep these methods in higher tiers of the tree so that Shintao or Ninjas can't abuse them without heavily speccing into it. 5 uses of meditation is great, but they should regenerate on tier 3 of 'Embrace the Void'; not quickly, but maybe 1 every 3 minutes. The most important and powerful Henshin abilities require a use of meditation -- as they should in fact -- but they severely reduce your mobility, limiting their situational use even further than they already are. Sure, Shintao and Ninjas can get this easily, as well, but what use do they have for it other than gaining ki while waiting for things? Beyond level 12 or so, only Henshin can truly make use of meditation.

    3. Give Henshin the ability to use metamagic feats on ki strikes and finishers (and increase ki cost comparatively), or GIVE Henshin ability toggles that work the same way. This should obviously be a tier 5 Henshin ability, preventing Ninjas and Shintao from abusing its uses. This would give some leeway and planning into the build, since tier 5 requires level 12 and prohibits other tier 5 abilities in other trees from being taken. Thus, this would prevent Henshin from being a low level powerhouse (like fire savant sorcerers are right now), but give them better ki usage at the level when ki-based damage abilities begin to wane and decrease in power, improving their performance in this area beyond that of other monks, as they should be.

    4. Change the near pointless elemental debuff ki strikes that Henshin has. In the grand scheme of things, these are next to useless and would be better suited to more useful ki-based abilities. It is unfortunate that, in order to get the void vorpal attack, you need to get all 4 of these abilities.

    Questions? Thoughts?
    What I am really hearing here is Henshin cant function in EE because they cant super focus. Maybe the more applicable complaint should be taht EE should not be having mobs with saves so high the typical spell caster needs a full kit of past lives to be viable and thus proxy gimp all the rest who dont, and all abilities that use saves that cant be pumped up the same extreme way.

    What the Devs and the players need to grasp, is that if you build a godlike spell caster there should no longer be ANY CONTENT capable of challenging you. Instead they demand a challenge and create these kinds of issues. because only in EE are those DCs you feel are to weak a legitimate complaint. And that is only because EE is not really directed at first life casters at the moment.

    Really the more I see threads like this the more I feel/fear Turbines only viable option is to do to saving throws what they did to armor class, unless people can finally grasp that super characters do not need to be challenged. Challenge is for those who want it, not for those who build to negate it.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    What I am really hearing here is Henshin cant function in EE because they cant super focus. Maybe the more applicable complaint should be taht EE should not be having mobs with saves so high the typical spell caster needs a full kit of past lives to be viable and thus proxy gimp all the rest who dont, and all abilities that use saves that cant be pumped up the same extreme way.

    What the Devs and the players need to grasp, is that if you build a godlike spell caster there should no longer be ANY CONTENT capable of challenging you. Instead they demand a challenge and create these kinds of issues. because only in EE are those DCs you feel are to weak a legitimate complaint. And that is only because EE is not really directed at first life casters at the moment.

    Really the more I see threads like this the more I feel/fear Turbines only viable option is to do to saving throws what they did to armor class, unless people can finally grasp that super characters do not need to be challenged. Challenge is for those who want it, not for those who build to negate it.
    Really?

    I don't want an overpowered character, but have you even seen the damage dealt by henshin's abilities? It's downright abysmal; this is on a tier with a weak spellsinger's sonic spells, AT BEST. I'm not asking for sorcerer-style damage, but come on, dealing 15-25 damage for 5 ki when mobs have 3-500 HP is just ridiculous. The tree has such great potential, but it's wasted on half-hearted attempts at a ki-focused monk. A henshin won't even make it to EE. Their ki usage won't even be viable in level 18 content without heavy, heavy emphasis on wisdom and spellpower, and even then they don't have the DC's to make them useful and their damage output would be limited to quarterstaff dps, which, frankly, simply doesn't compare to the unarmed damage of a shintao or the quarterstaff damage of a rogue acrobat.

    All I'm saying is give henshin something to work with.

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