I don't think it's an obsession with multiclass just issues balancing things, Ninja Spy got nerfed to only work with a small weapon group instead of all slash/pierce, druid will get nerfed and no longer work with the TWF feats eventually and other really powerful splashes might get a look in too(looking at you Divine Might).
The problem is too many different things stack that apparently shouldn't, HM Staff Training still stacks with TA Staff Training, NS SA stacks with assassin SA, etc. are the easy ones to spot, but there are some other synergies that're super powerful too that probably aren't intended. The problem with nerfing them though is you'll end up burning a lot more AP on useless things just to get the higher tier unique things, wasted APs was an issue pre pass but it's gotten worse already IMO.
Oh and do me a favor and stop acting like playing single-class characters should always be the best option and that it somehow makes you superior or a "Purist" we have enough Elitism around here already both options should be equally as rewarding.
Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-30-2013 at 07:55 AM.
Originally Posted by Cordovan
As I've said before, playstyle makes the game. I'm doing just fine with my L18 Henshin Mystic. I destroy trash exceedingly well with a simple formula: Incinerating Wave, a Cast-Shadow strike, mass-neg-level a mob, Whirlwind Attack, repeat until dead. Works very well and doesn't take a lot of time at all. I've killed as well with the limited Ninja Spy enhancements of pre-U19 because the enhancements don't necessarily define a playstyle. It's our own gameplay that takes what offered in an enhancement and applies these limited powers to their maximum. Curse of the Void might seem useless to some. But when a party is looking at fighting 4 devils, one charm means we found a 7th party member. (I tend to make more.)
Your statements don't match to my results. I'm not the only player, so I'm sure others can relay their experiences. If you cannot or don't want to play that class, fine. Don't waste time attacking in a futile, raged manner--unless of course, that's your "playstyle" on the forums (in which case, you are doing it wrong--this is the Monk, not Barbarian thread.)
I know that Epic is a different game, but it's hardly impossible. It's called "Epic" for a reason. It's meant to challenge all of us. The arguments in this thread suggest but haven't proven that an Epic Mystic cannot survive. I'm just looking for that proof.
My bet is that there are many Epic Henshins that could speak up and disprove your arguments. But I suspect they're too busy to post here while having fun killing trolls online and not baiting them here as I think I might be.
I strongly suspect that an Epic Mystic is going to be just as gear-dependent as others. But--and this is a big one that your last comment did not mention--Epic Destinies play a big role. A Mystic with Legendary Dreadnought and certainly Grandmaster of Flowers (better, lots of Twists) should have better defenses befitting Epic quests and be a stronger trash-mover than ever.
I don't have my Mystic up there yet. I'll provide the thread with a few screenshots of successes as they will happen--if a few dozen other Mystics don't beat me to it first. There's no such thing as a "Easy" button to good gameplay.
I'm not much in multiclassing, either, for the same reasons. A good class should be able to do its job very well while holding a lot of versatility options. I know that a full Shintao is a tanking badass and a full Ninja is a slippery backstabbing stealth monster from my own experience. I'm optimistic that my Mystic at 20 shows a similar caliber (your argument for the whole thread).
We have a better diversity with Monks and U19, but as a whole, there's more tweaking to be done. I err to patience from the devs because they make a critically large number of changes in this one and we're really lucky that something isn't extremely broken as a result. I do think that the new enhancement are pigeonholing a bit. Why the bias to Earth Stance in Shintao? Couldn't other stances benefit?
Henshin works perfectly until endgame- I never said it didn't. "Gear dependent" is not how the mystic's ki attacks start working in epics. You essentially have to switch your character to a not-as-much-dps acrobat to continue to play at a level of normality- it's a major change in playstyle. Your incinerating wave will not do as much as a cleave and casting it will be a waste. The only thing you'll find yourself using, and mind you in situational circumstance at best, is Cauldron of Fire. The maximum amount of damage your incinerating wave will do, if it hits twice, is around 300 including spell power- but realistically, most EN/EH mobs will save against this, and so you're looking at 150-300 maximum. This costs 10 ki less than a Quivering Palm, which has a more reliable save, and one that can be boosted. Incinerating Wave/Ki Bolt/Cauldron of Fire are not in any magic school, and so even if you had a WIS score of 54, the wave would have a save of 57- though do note by having that WIS score by not pumping STR instead and not using handwraps, you're essentially a neg level and quivering palm machine. Adding stunning fist to the mix would waste a whole lot of AP you've spent in henshin, and one of the tier 5 abilities would be wasted. Without stunning fist, there is very little reason to add WIS unless you want to be fairly useless against bosses.
The things you are using are fine at the moment, more than fine, Henshin is a blast before endgame, but the need to change your entire build focus around after you hit that point is why it's so frustrating. When you get a DPS drop to use your Ki attacks (mind you, the core abilities are centered around these) and then you have to further drop your DPS to make them sort of itch, I see a problem there. It's not all about DPS, no, but when it's use a cleave or a wave, the cleave is free and much better in just about every single circumstance.
I love anti-dark and anti-light- that is really, really fun. And I can see how you're having fun with it because I do too, but the Ki attacks are what separates the Henshin from the other two tiers and makes it less pidgin-holed than the Ninja and the Shintao. All of the potential goes down the drain though, because you're using 2-tick un-metamagic'd firewall in epics that disrupts your main source of DPS.
Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, FVS, and druids are already having some difficulty getting their DC's to a 'good enough' level for high level epics. If that's the case that even the 'best' class for DC casting (wizard) is having a challenge with end-game DC's, then monks don't stand a chance in this arena when it comes to ki abilities. I can say that, playing on my epic characters in 25+ content, I've never seen a pure monk henshin or even a multiclass henshin that uses the fire/force ki abilities (other than void strike which has no save). Monks don't have the ability and item usage to increase their ki DC's that high; stunning fist/quivering palm are different in this aspect as they have items to use like stunning/sundering and combat masteries from items and epic destinies. They also don't have the spell focus feats, spell focus items, epic destiny bonuses, and singular focus on their key stat like casters do. They simply don't have the utility required for end-game DC's.
One thing I miss in playing a Mystic is stunning. Stunning Blow and a staff is slower and far less effective. In that, yeah, I worry. Stopping a mob is one thing. A Monk has been generally good in stopping one at a time. A Mystic doesn't have that with its heroic skills, requiring an epic option. They do get a DC increase ability, but is it too little? I'm hoping you're wrong.
I like my blind optimism. I tend to make it work with results. But I suspect I play differently than some, so that's my normal.
Some sort of Monk/Fire Savant might work...too bad there's no force Savant it would work much better than fire...anyways say Monk13/Sorc6/Rogue1 Q-Staff User (Acrobat Q-staff speed is tier 1) Dex/Wis based..Wis primary. Sorc spells used primarily for buffs and levels primarily for access to full fire savant tree and Core 2
1 - Jump, Exp Retreat, DSD, Feather Fall
2 - Blur, Invis (+MS Skill)
3 - Haste
I dunno just a thought.
ED wise either GMoF with some DI Twists or the other way around.
Not sure what race would be best but I doubt between Henshin and Fire Savant there will be many APs left for racial enhancements to likely Human for the Extra feat and Skill pt.
Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-30-2013 at 11:44 AM.
Originally Posted by Cordovan
With a 50 Wis, which may not be MAX, but is pretty damn high...some real deficiencies are highlighted (I probably got some of these a little wrong):
Ki Bolt, Reflex, DC 50
Incinerating Wave, Reflex, DC 50
Cauldron of Flame, Reflex, DC 50
Various Finishing Moves, Fort / Ref / Will, DC 53
That's it?! PLUS the Henshin ones are Reflex so will be Evaded...? Ugh.
Ok, well, I'll have to be GMoF for those Ki blast ability thingies too:
Orchid Blossom, Reflex, DC 48
Drifting Lotus, Reflex, DC 48
A Scattering of Petals, Fort, DC 58
Everything is Nothing, Fort, DC 58
Ok, cool...ASoP and EiN I can work with of course...but damn, really?! Another two low DC Reflex abilities? For crying out loud...
Why would I bother when I could:
Quivering Palm, Fort, DC 64 (with an Improved Sunder prep for +3 more DC)
Stunning Fist, Fort, DC 68 (maybe with Improved Sunder for +3 DC)
Kukan-Do, Will, DC 59 (with only a 20 Cha)
Unbalancing Strike, Ref, DC 64 (Sneak Attacks! Works on bosses!)
Yeah, I'm really gonna need a solid way to get another +10 DC on those weak abilities before I can consider using them.
I commend Spencerian for actually playing it through, but I looked at those numbers and just had to walk away...
Last edited by rimble; 10-09-2013 at 12:45 PM.
After looking at the figures, I honestly don't see how the devs can save this tree without a major overhaul.
Nobody has tried Henshin with a handwrap build?
You can take 41 points in the tree without a single staff enhancement. I don't get much out of the Elemental Words investment or the meditation bits, but otherwise everything is useful or at least amusing. I don't consider the ki/spell or staff offerings in the tree disappointing because I don't consider them at all.
Regardless of philosophy I try to use the finishers as much as possible, as it's just a matter of rearranging DPS strikes to ready them. Henshin opens that up substantially by making all philosophy finishers available.
I like Henshin on the dark side, as not only does SCEWL work as awesomely as it sounds, but because I use half to two-thirds of the Dark finishers on a regular basis. I usually only prep Aligning the Heavens on the light side, and I can easily find the time to slot in a SCEWL between Unbalancing Strike and Ocean IV once a minute. And SCEWL is ridiculously easy to use- just crack it off before a target dies and whomp, 100 HP + your healing amp every six seconds or so. Your buddies as well. Usually a far better healing method than the lightside finisher, which can be prepped by a darksider now.
I have never been a fan of Void IV for the vorpal effect, but I used to like III and IV for the DPS strikes. From what I can tell it now gets the same treatment as Touch of Death, treating it differently than an elemental ki attack or stun. I have never seen more than one big force proc on-screen, though it might be in the logs somewhere. A disappointment overall.
I do not find any of the HE racial options appealing, so for the time being I am still able to max out both No Mercy and Deft Strikes while devoting enough resources to get to Serenity.
What I find I miss most is the extension to the dodge cap from Meditation of War. I regularly used all of the Shintao stuff like K-D, smite, banish and the jades, but I think that was just because they were available.
As mentioned previously, passive Ki regen on a Henshin can get to +5 or 6. When in quests I usually see this as +4. I was surprised to find that this actually made a palpable difference when manipulating ki, and I could stay out of Fire stance more often.
I would highly recommend any gTWFer with the plat and inclination to give Henshin a spin. The Light/Dark thing alone can be pretty fun if you're in to the finishers.
Last edited by Schmackdown; 11-25-2013 at 06:47 PM.
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