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Thread: Thanks Cordovan

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    I'm really glad with your reply to this thread:
    p/425263-Cheating-is-rampant-whats-the-point-now-and-why-complain-about-P2Win?p=5096217&viewfull=1#post5096217
    <snip>
    I would like to see more of those clear responses in the future
    I'm also happy the issue NOW has a clear answer, and would also like to see more clear answers on other issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    It's a win for common sense.
    But there's no need to pretend it was clear "common sense" that things working as described were not working as intended BEFORE Turbine told us so.

    It's not it win for "common sense", it's a loss for "things do what they say they do". I.e., they've now admitted they have a both a bug in the behavior they wanted, AND a bug in the description, since currently it does what it says.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    o.O You did read the statement from Cordovan stating that it wasn't working as intended, correct?
    I did, yes. Glad he cleared it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Not that anyone was ACTUALLY unclear before.
    Really? It seems there were quite a few people unclear on it; they were throwing around terms like "cheating", "exploit", etc., about a game ability doing what it's description said it should do.

  3. #23
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    And in my opinion you don't need to be told explicitly whether or not something is WAI. Just make an estimate of how likely it is whether something is WAI. If the estimated probability is sufficiently close to 0% you can be (almost) certain that it is not WAI. Every sane person is able to make such estimates.
    Are wraps with dreadnought WAI? Not sure? should they? Be definition, yes.

    Do they? No. Probability of what it theoretically should be? >50%

    Alas, I'm confused.

  4. #24
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    But there's no need to pretend it was clear "common sense" that things working as described were not working as intended BEFORE Turbine told us so.
    Of course it was common sense... I don't know if you saw this in action, or you're just talking from theory.

    Primal Scream does a solid amount of AOE damage... It would one-shot every boss up to level 5 or so, and one-shot trash mobs up until level 10 or so... And Energy Burst is even more powerful.

    You could gather up 50 kobolds or hobgoblins or whatever, and kill them all with one keystroke.

    There ARE exploits that are in a grey area. This is not one of them. If you can kill everything in a dungeon with 2 keystrokes, it's obviously not working as intended.

    Look, one can argue that we should be able do anything the game allows us to do (which therefore means there is no such thing as an exploit). The devs of EVERY MMO obviously disagree with that (since people do occasionally get banned from all MMOs for exploiting), but one could argue that position.

    But you can't argue that using EPIC abilities at level 1 is working as intended. We don't 100% know how devs intend gameplay to work in this game, but there ARE some things that are obvious. The devs have spent time making sure we can't use +6 STR rings at level 1. How can any reasonable human being think the devs intend for us to use EPIC abilities at level 1 that destroy entire dungeons with a single click? I mean Primal Scream does AOE 30d20 damage... THIRTY d20... What kind of person thinks being able to use that at level 1 is WORKING AS INTENDED?

    Using it is bad enough. Denying its not working as intended means one is just stupid, hasn't thought it through, or trolling for reactions. There really is no other option. It is impossible for a reasonable person to truly believe "Maybe the devs intended this to work this way"
    Last edited by Thrudh; 09-12-2013 at 08:52 AM.
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Really? It seems there were quite a few people unclear on it; they were throwing around terms like "cheating", "exploit", etc., about a game ability doing what it's description said it should do.
    The ingame descriptions are not always complete and may not cover each possible situation. Basing your opinion solely on a possibly incomplete description is a bit shortsighted, in my opinion. Even if it works as described, it may still be wrong. It's better to take a step back to the development level and argue how developers intended the mechanics to be rather than staring blindly at a description. Answering simple questions like "does it make sense for heroic characters to use epic destiny abilities?" can get you pretty far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    1. Raid completions
    2. Sagas
    3. Warpriest
    4. Confirmation on reroll loot button
    5. Acolyte of the skin
    6. Lag, memory leak and client stability
    7. End game content
    8. Log in problems
    9. Fixing not working ED and AP abilities
    100 more important fixes
    110. Fixing twists in heroics

    There are really many much more important things to do now.
    Diferent ppl, different needs...

    1. Fixing twists in heroic (I like to TR and this does ruins my game, as the content is trivialized)
    2. End game content Raid wise
    3. End game content quest and gear wise
    4. Housing
    5.Game crashing while entering wild areas (notably Sands and Forest)
    6. Fixing stuff in existing enchantement trees.
    7. Sagas
    8. More enchantement trees



    9 - 100 Stuff that I can solve by myself - like with DDOPreloader

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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    Diferent ppl, different needs...

    1. Fixing twists in heroic (I like to TR and this does ruins my game, as the content is trivialized)
    Question.

    Do you use Ship Buffs? Particularly, do you use Ship Buffs at low level?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    Question.

    Do you use Ship Buffs? Particularly, do you use Ship Buffs at low level?
    Ship buffs definitely trivialize low levels but they are approved to use and WAI. Primal scream and other ED abilities are meant to be used by epic players, not heroic players.

  9. #29
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Yes it's not working as intended. So what, neither is the fact that I have to double raise if I was raged when I died. Just because something is a bug or not WAI does not make it an exploit, it makes it a bug, nothing more or less then that, the fact that th ebug gave more power to a character or less does not change that either.

    Yes I understand that purest have issues with this, but as a game with as many bugs as DDO has, I am not going to feel bad about the few that creep up in my favor when so many work against me. Fix the ones that work against me, and I personally will be less inclined to use the ones that work for me.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Ship buffs definitely trivialize low levels but they are approved to use and WAI. Primal scream and other ED abilities are meant to be used by epic players, not heroic players.
    I'm not claiming otherwise, but my point really, was that complaining that X trivializes content, when one quite happily uses Y which has the same effect (Trivializing content) seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

    Let's face it, outside of Ship Buffs there's not a single way to have 30 Resists at level 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    I'm not claiming otherwise, but my point really, was that complaining that X trivializes content, when one quite happily uses Y which has the same effect (Trivializing content) seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

    Let's face it, outside of Ship Buffs there's not a single way to have 30 Resists at level 1.
    Friend casts resist energy [X] on you. He just happens to be a pure wizard at level 28.

    Check. Mate.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Friend casts resist energy [X] on you. He just happens to be a pure wizard at level 28.

    Check. Mate.
    Awesome. So tell me, just how much xp did you get from that quest after your level 28 friend popped in?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    Awesome. So tell me, just how much xp did you get from that quest after your level 28 friend popped in?
    Never said I got xp. You stated that there was no way.
    No viable way I'd have left alone.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Never said I got xp. You stated that there was no way.
    No viable way I'd have left alone.
    Everyone smart arse. lol (You did actually make me laugh btw).

    But if we want to play word games one could make the same argument about say Healing Spring.

    That level 28 friend comes in and cast it on you...yadda yadda. :P

  15. #35
    Halfling Hero phalaeo's Avatar
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    People have said it trivializes the content.... What about these? Do these things trivialize the content?


    • 30 pt. resists and +2 to all stats at level one?
    • ML:4 cove trinkets with Earthen Guard?
    • DDO Store items? (Greater Teleport with no UMD, better healing pots, better SP pots, etc.?)
    • Guild slots? Augments?
    • Stones of XP that take you from Level 8 to Level 19?


    I have one friend who showed up on the boat ready for a TR train with 155HP at level two. That's insane.

    I'm just asking... where do we draw the line? It's subjective, and one of the things I like the most about DDO is that there are so many ways you can choose to play the game.

    There are some people who enjoy the game more by not using the AH and using only items and consumables they find while questing. Some people have whole mules filled with twink items for TRing. Some people run 30% XP pots all the time. Some buy stacks of 100 Major SP pots from the store and drink them like water, and some work to conserve SP from shrine to shrine. My point is that people should stop complaining about how other people choose to play. If you want to zerg, group with like minded people. If you want permadeath, find people who like to play the way you do.

    If you think there's something in game that is an exploit, report it, don't come to the forums whining about how something is breaking the way you like to play. Doing that becomes more about you and less about the issue, because the time you spend complaining on a forum about how other people play is less time that you have to actually play the way you want.
    ~ Pallai, Chennai, Saraphima~
    ~Shipbuff, Sophalia, Northenstar ~
    ~ Ascent~



  16. #36
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I'm also happy the issue NOW has a clear answer, and would also like to see more clear answers on other issues.



    But there's no need to pretend it was clear "common sense" that things working as described were not working as intended BEFORE Turbine told us so.

    It's not it win for "common sense", it's a loss for "things do what they say they do". I.e., they've now admitted they have a both a bug in the behavior they wanted, AND a bug in the description, since currently it does what it says.
    It was ABSOLUTELY common sense that it wasnt WAI before Turbine told us so. People were using post level 20 abilities on pre level 20 toons. The fact that it didnt just work in heroic levels, and people needed to do a few things to finagle it into working in heroic levels, tells us it wasnt WAI.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Even if it works as described, it may still be wrong.
    "may be", sure. Which is why we had to have Turbine state something definitive to contradict the in-game description.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Basing your opinion solely on a possibly incomplete description is a bit shortsighted, in my opinion.
    And assuming other people are "clearly" cheating exploiters for taking in-game descriptions at face value as a reasonable starting-point interpretation isn't short-sighted (or down-right rude)?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    There ARE exploits that are in a grey area. This is not one of them. If you can kill everything in a dungeon with 2 keystrokes, it's obviously not working as intended.
    Was Wail of the Banshee a bug, not WAI, before they changed it? Or was it just something that was working as intended that they later decided to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    But you can't argue that using EPIC abilities at level 1 is working as intended. We don't 100% know how devs intend gameplay to work in this game
    Not anymore, because now we do know 100%. They've said so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Denying its not working as intended means one is just stupid, hasn't thought it through, or trolling for reactions. There really is no other option. It is impossible for a reasonable person to truly believe "Maybe the devs intended this to work this way"
    Not anymore, as The Devs Have Spoken. But before, no, it wasn't. Using in-game descriptions as a starting point for deciding whether something is WAI is perfectly reasonable.

    I found a lack of reasonable discussion much more on the other side of the previous debate. It would have been a reasonable reaction to say, "Is this WAI? Because even though the description implies that it is, it seems OP." THAT would have been reasonable. But instead we got, "You're CLEARLY all EXPLOITING CHEATERS, this can't POSSIBLY be WAI!", in the face of the plain in-game description of Twists of Fate. Not reasonable, and not polite.

  19. #39
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    This is why we can't ever have nice things.

    Just like with Beguile, some people aren't happy having quests go smoothly. They either are jealous of people who can use said abilities when they cannot or are simply masochists.

    Either way, they whine about it and get it taken away from everybody else. This thing was one of the best things about TRing-- it made it FUN.

    And I swear, if THIS now gets "fixed" before they fix sagas, broken raid completion lists, or the slew of bugs negatively affecting Pale Masters I am going to lose my mind.

    Also, the way I see it, we EARNED this power by earning our fate points. Is that not how it is supposed to work?
    Last edited by djl; 09-12-2013 at 12:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Does everything really have to be told to you literally? Do you have no common sense of your own? Surely you can imagine that epic destiny abilities are for epic levels only.... after all, they're called epic and anything with the word epic in this game is intended for level 20 or higher.



    I do agree that some people with a form of autism could take the ingame descriptions at face value and think that they are not cheating. That's only a small minority of players though. Are you perhaps one of them?
    No one truly believed that this was WAI. The fact that it can only be achieved when certain conditions are met is the first clue. People are just claiming they didn't know, so they don't get banned. No one is asking for you to be banned. Get over it and move on.

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