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  1. #41

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    Looking back at the spreadsheet, I think moving the 4 haggle over to jump would be a significant improvement.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istaria1 View Post
    I was just playing around with some vet characters, and came up with these 2 ideas (they're similar):

    Halfling Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Bard 16
    Halfling Rogue 2/Ranger 2/Bard 16

    The fighter version will get an extra feat, but will be shorter on skill points here. Honestly, I'd probably go Ranger, even if you get one less feat. The boost to healing spellpower and the extra skill points offset the extra feat, imo.

    The main idea is to emulate an artificer somewhat, but with all the Bardy deliciousness. So feats taken would be:

    - Point Blank Shot
    - Rapid Shot (2 ranger will auto grant this)
    - Rapid Reload
    - Exotic Proficiency: Repeating Heavy Crossbow
    - Improved Critical: Ranged
    - Extend (for buffs)
    - Empower Healing

    I haven't included DM:Healing above, but there's easily room to fit this in. Also, Heighten is not a good choice for Bards, because your highest level spells are only level 6.

    Stat-wise, it'd look something like this:

    Str: 10
    Dex: 16
    Con: 16
    Int: 14
    Wis: 8
    Cha: 12

    That's a 28-point build. If you have 32 points, you can go for either a bit more Str, a bit more Cha, or you could rearrange to get 16 Int with a bit less Con. You might even opt for 18 Dex, but it's an expensive investment.

    You should be able to keep Search, Spot, Disable, Perform and UMD maxed. You might be able to fit in Heal also. As Ellis said, don't bother too much with Open Lock, beyond the first 4 ranks taken at level 1, which should be Rogue.

    Playstyle: Halfling healing singer popping away between Thrud's mighty bandy legs with a heavy repeating crossbow (which is devestating at low levels, and powerful all the way to 20).

    The con of this build is that you won't be able to add your Dex to damage, and also can't use the Arti trick of adding Int to damage. However, I think the damage output should still be good.

    Might be of interest

    Aes.
    Hmm, that is interesting. I suppose a heavy repeating crossbow is a significantly better than the great crossbow that I can get proficient with using 1 point in rogues mechanic tree? Saving 1 feat would let me get weapon finesse at least so I can sword and board when necessary using dex to hit/dam.

    It is very tempting to be able to range effectively instead of melee, it would be fun to try something new and a good synergy with the barbarian. I suppose not getting dex to damage is not so bad when you don't get strength to damage either with crossbows (afaik). I can get some small bonuses to xbow from the rogue mechanic tree.

    You also made me realize that Improved Critical has separate sub-feats for ranged and thrown, when I thought I could use Improved Critical: pierce also for arrows and throwing daggers ... so much to learn.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Looking back at the spreadsheet, I think moving the 4 haggle over to jump would be a significant improvement.
    Right, jump is more useful than haggle if its just a few point I suppose.

    I sent you my email address in a private message, would be great if you can email me the spreadsheet.

    Looking at the first levels, I wonder if I keep UMD maxed with the bard levels from 2-5 and instead take a bit less in the cross-class rogue skills, I won't have to put so many points in UMD with the rogue level at lvl 8, and can more easily top up search etc. ?

    Don't think I explained that well, but I was just wondering if I could tweak more effect out of the points by avoiding the bards class skills when doing rogue and ranger levels as there are so many bard levels to advance those with.
    Last edited by Tangoro; 09-12-2013 at 04:51 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    But have you considered an Unarmed 12 Monk/7 Cleric/1 Artificer build?

    12 Monk is a solid Melee DPS platform to work with:
    - Stunning Fist means in-built corwd control (less incoming damage) and bigger dmaage numbers for you both!
    - Movement Speed/Abundent Step to keep up with the raging Barbarian
    7 Cleric is a solid set of levels for qadding self-sufficiency and solo/duo healing
    - Gives you access to level 4 Cleric spells including the default CCW as well as the critical (IMO) Deathward & Freedom of Movement
    - Radiant Servant Enhancements to pick up the Healing Aura you can constantly run -Melee AND Heal at the same time
    1 Artificer
    - Ranged Damage when needing to get those pesky archers killing your Son!
    - Allow you to get traps
    - Access to oodles of UMD/Scroll Healing

    I personally have a build at level 25 currently that is 12 Monk/7 Cleric/1 Fighter and I cherish him to bits for what he can do. I don't have the healing aura as I prefer the T5 Monk enahncements, but between Rejuvenation Cocoon, Renewal and my Cure spells I can deal a lot of healing out as needed and be quite a powerhouse of sustained DPS.
    That's something to process for me, too little experience with monk and artificer. Are there more details about your build progression etc somewhere on the forums? I've looked at the builds in your signature before (and the ones Ellis have) and there is always so much detail to take in.

    Even if I don't go this route for the barbarian buddy toon it looks like a fun build to explore on its own as well. Thanks!

  5. #45

    Cool Great theorycrafting here.. enjoying the discussion.

    Quite the interesting thread.
    The flavour of builds is what makes me an alt-o-holic.
    Playing with a lot of rl friends, keeps me tr'ing and rolling up new ones.

    Recently I've been helping a new friend get his start in DDO. He too has chosen the heavy hitting style of Barbarian. Thus, I had to choose a complimenting counter-part. Halfling Bard was the go-to. As it had buffs, healing, and some manner of dishing out pain of it's own.

    If I may suggest, Bard 16/ Rog 3/ Rgr 1.

    Actually have to take TWF, but may be worth it
    Still allowing for the Dws +75 positive boost, also
    3 rog nets you the dagger in the back, 2nd assassin core allowing you if you possess weapon finesse, to use dex to dmg for weapons with which you can use dex to hit. As well as an additional d6 sneak from the lvl, while opening option for venomed blades... And/ Or more sneak die.
    (if those require rog lvls as pre-reqs)

    Seems still able to do most the things required for a nice duo with a Big ol' Barb.
    To boot, when my big buddy has aggro, I do much more dmg
    via SA.

    just my 2p.
    Xion
    Last edited by Xionswift_Darkheart; 09-12-2013 at 05:20 PM. Reason: left out reasoning for split... oops

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionswift_Darkheart View Post
    If I may suggest, Bard 16/ Rog 3/ Rgr 1.

    Actually have to take TWF, but may be worth it
    Still allowing for the Dws +75 positive boost, also
    3 rog nets you the dagger in the back, 2nd assassin core allowing you if you possess weapon finesse, to use dex to dmg for weapons with which you can use dex to hit. As well as an additional d6 sneak from the lvl, while opening option for venomed blades... And/ Or more sneak die.
    (if those require rog lvls as pre-reqs)
    Well, 16/2/2 bard/rog/rng does all that as well thanks to the tier 2 deepwood stalker enhancement Improved Weapon Finesse. Plus you get TWF for free. Note that since you're spending 6 AP on the deepwood stalker tree for devotion anyway, 2 more points for an already-unlocked tier 2 is a nice synergy.

    The one thing not lacking in this build will be sneak attack. The halfling tree alone gives a metric ton of it, plus the assassin tree as well as the deepwood stalker tree. There is more sneak attack to take than there are points to spend on it.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangoro View Post
    I sent you my email address in a private message, would be great if you can email me the spreadsheet.
    Sent.

    It's in the standard format I use for all my builds, and I filled it out (mostly) for your build to give you a head start. Let me know if you have any questions or issues.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangoro View Post
    It is very tempting to be able to range effectively instead of melee, it would be fun to try something new and a good synergy with the barbarian. I suppose not getting dex to damage is not so bad when you don't get strength to damage either with crossbows (afaik). I can get some small bonuses to xbow from the rogue mechanic tree.
    Well, then again, with the 16/2/2 build you could also take Manyshot, if you really wanted to... (Requires Point Blank Shot and 17 dex.)

    Possibly easier to go thrown, after all the dragonmarks from Halfling tree, Skillful Thrower + Master Thrower isn't all that much more ... Ranged feats not required but beneficial.
    Last edited by mna; 09-12-2013 at 07:17 PM.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
    Away from the game most of 2015.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Well, then again, with the 16/2/2 build you could also take Manyshot, if you really wanted to... (Requires Point Blank Shot and 17 dex.)
    I interpret what you write to mean that even with my gimped STR, using bows would be better (with Point Blank Shot + Manyshot) than xbows (with point blank shot, rapid reload, etc)?

    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Possibly easier to go thrown, after all the dragonmarks from Halfling tree, Skillful Thrower + Master Thrower isn't all that much more ... Ranged feats not required but beneficial.
    I already get Rapid Shot for free from ranger 2, and from what I read that also works with thrown weapons. It seems tempting to take Quick Draw as a feat as well to make thrown weapons faster and get the added perk that I can switch weapons faster. I didn't think about the switching weapons thing before, but it was mentioned previously in this thread that when healing from wands and scrolls it can be annoying with the 1s delay. So maybe Rapid Shot (free), Quick Draw and throwing enhancements from halfling has a nice synergy with the rest of the build. Dex to hit and damage and quicker swapping of scrolls/wands/weapons. I am not sure what other ranged feats are good or even work at all with thrown weapons. Improved Critical: thrown at least.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangoro View Post
    I interpret what you write to mean that even with my gimped STR, using bows would be better (with Point Blank Shot + Manyshot) than xbows (with point blank shot, rapid reload, etc)?
    Well. Different tradeoffs. I wouldn't go that way myself with this kind of a build, but some people just LOVE Manyshot.
    (I do have a character going that'll end up as a 16/2/2 bard/ranger/rogue with Manyshot and GTWF, but it's a str-based human.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangoro View Post
    I already get Rapid Shot for free from ranger 2, and from what I read that also works with thrown weapons. It seems tempting to take Quick Draw as a feat as well to make thrown weapons faster and get the added perk that I can switch weapons faster. I didn't think about the switching weapons thing before, but it was mentioned previously in this thread that when healing from wands and scrolls it can be annoying with the 1s delay. So maybe Rapid Shot (free), Quick Draw and throwing enhancements from halfling has a nice synergy with the rest of the build. Dex to hit and damage and quicker swapping of scrolls/wands/weapons. I am not sure what other ranged feats are good or even work at all with thrown weapons. Improved Critical: thrown at least.
    IIRC, Point Blank Shot also works with thrown. Which is nice when you're doing sneak attack and stuff from the DWS tree anyway.


    There's also the thing about level/feat ordering. Building up to a capability you'll only have at 18 isn't always going to be as much fun around level 10... you can use thrown weapons with no feats put into it, unlike Manyshot. And your early feats are pretty much fixed already, so...

    Enhancements (crossbow bonuses vs thrown - you'll probably want to keep Mechanic core 1 with the proficiency to keep the trap skill enhs anyway) are also easy to change, unlike feats.
    Last edited by mna; 09-13-2013 at 04:56 AM.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
    Away from the game most of 2015.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangoro View Post
    It seems tempting to take Quick Draw
    You're tight on feats; taking Quick Draw would hurt:

    1: Dragonmmark of Healing
    3: Weapon Finesse
    6: Empower Healing Spell
    9: Extend
    12: Improved Critical
    15: ITWF
    18: GTWF

    You can move ITWF to 9, GTWF to 15 and Extend back to 18 and still meet all BAB prereqs but based on the stated goals of this build I think extend @ 9 is the best choice in order to keep your barb buffed.

  12. #52
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    Yes, it is clear I will have to chose between either ranged (thrown/bow/xbow) or melee TWF feats. Also on AP for enhancements I will be really stretched.

    My choices seems to be:

    1. Melee TWF
    - Weapon Finesse (I will want this anyway)
    - TWF (free with ranger 2)
    - ITWF
    - GTWF
    - Improved Critical: Pierce

    2. Throwing
    - Rapid Shot (free with ranger 2)
    - Point Blank Shot
    - Quick Draw
    - Improved Critical: Thrown

    3. Bow
    - Rapid Shot (free with ranger 2)
    - Point Blank Shot
    - Manyshot
    - Improved Critical: Ranged

    4. Crossbow
    - Rapid Shot (free with ranger 2)
    - Point Blank Shot
    - Rapid Reload (?)
    - Improved Critical: Ranged

    So, I have 3 feat slots most likely at lvl 12,15,18 that I can use to improve either TWF, throwing, bow or crossbow performance. Up until then I will have to make do with what I get out of Weapon Finesse and enhancements. I can plan for developing melee/TWF further from lvl 12 up, but by the time I hit level 12 I can change my mind and instead make bow, crossbow or throwing my main focus. As mna points out, enhancements are easy to change.

    I agree on moving extend up, the buffing is more important than DPS. Do you also think Improved Critical is more important than ITWF (it seems so from your suggested order)?

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangoro View Post
    I agree on moving extend up, the buffing is more important than DPS. Do you also think Improved Critical is more important than ITWF (it seems so from your suggested order)?
    Well, hmmm, now that you mention it, the TWF feats might be a bigger boost:

    ITWF adds 20% offhand, meaning 4 extra hits per 20 swings w/half strength bonus but full weapon effects.
    IC adds 3 crit range, meaning 3 extra base damage w/full strength bonus but no weapon effects and 1.2 extra base offhand w/half strength bonus but no weapon effects.

    Looks like ITWF will do more for dps than IC, and GTWF might as well but it's closer. The TWF feats win handily if you factor in enemy fortification on mobs like undead or constructs.

    Yeah, push IC back to 18 and take ITWF @ 12 and GTWF @ 15.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    IC adds 3 crit range, meaning 3 extra base damage w/full strength bonus but no weapon effects and 1.2 extra base offhand w/half strength bonus but no weapon effects.
    ...well, not MUCH weapon effects, especially now that bursts aren't dropping any more. Bloodletting/heartseeking/ribcracking still does drop, and seems to happen on what would otherwise be a crit even on undead. (How come bloodletting procs on zombies at all, anyway? They're immune to bleeding, IIRC...)

    Probably doesn't change the numbers significantly anyway.

    (One of my THF toons has a race-restricted/halfling burst of bloodletting greatsword, heh. Too bad it isn't a falchion.)
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
    Away from the game most of 2015.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Probably doesn't change the numbers significantly anyway.
    Geez I feel like I'm watching a tennis match as I ping-pong back and forth on this.

    You raise a valid point. Heartseeker is an uberlicious weapon effect for rapiers, and improved critical would boost it quite a bit. So if you're going with heartseeker I might want IC before ITWF.

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