Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2345678 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 152
  1. #101
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    10,774

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SSFWEl View Post
    I dunno, I think I was pretty clear what my point was
    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Well that topic has nothing to do with the OP, and thus nothing to do with this discussion, if you want to talk about that you would be better to start your own Topic then to derail this one.
    friendly little reminder about thread topic

  2. #102
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7,154

    Default

    Meh. I am getting too defensive. I may have read that wrong. Deleted the first part of my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    how exactly do you "force cooperation" without forcing players to be dependent on each other? i'm fascinated to hear your answer.
    To answer that, as for Chai feelings on Forced-Corporation, by the merits of the Dungeon Masters Guide, and the quests he listed, (using Shadow King and Von5 as an example), they depend on everyone in the group being self sufficient and able to take care of themselves for each of them to accomplish a separate objective.

    IE: each "team" takes a side in Shadow King, each team takes a side in VoN5, Etc, Etc. Anyone who has done these quests knows how it goes, you go in and you split up to get things done.

    Another example would be tomb of the unhallowed, where they have to pass the gears to pull the levers, but then each team needs to get back to the main hall of their own accord.

    To use a popular example in today's game of how this would work: Wiz King:

    Typically there are a few ways to approach it: There is the simple way, where everyone goes up and down each tower in order till they kill the king and get the loot.

    Now in the in the current BYOH/Self Sufficient Groups the mindset is: "hey we can each cover our own so lets each do a tower to speed things up",

    However, with Forced-Cooperation, that would get warped into a DM saying: "To force everyone to communicate and work as a team, you need to kill the boss in each tower at the same time" which really amounts to the group needs to spit up and solo a tower making self-sufficiency king. The only problem I see with this, is that people who like to solo, get the shaft.

    In that vein, while I am not a fan of mechanics that prevent people from being able to solo a quest, his idealism of Forced-Cooperation is in simple terms, the removal of players depending on each other directly by requiring them to depend on each other indirectly. With the way the game is right now, would just move things even further along the removal of needing anyone as everyone would need to be able to go off and do objectives on their own (which is not a bad thing). But the irony of it all, is that in every way, what he really is putting on the table is to force 6 people to solo a quest together by forcing each of them to solo a part of the quest, to all come to a mechanism they need to trigger at the same time to show they can work as a team.

    Well, to be fair, that is what has been going on in BYOH and Self Sufficient groups since they existed, he just seems bent on decrying them and not realizing that what they are doing is in fact the exact type of team work he thinks the game needs more of.

    I personally have no issues with making quests solo-able, but allowing for extra objectives that can inspire that kind of teamwork, like for example, Tear, where often a few will break off to do the separate objectives for extra exp, while others work towards the main objective, that is a great example of team work done right.
    Last edited by Ungood; 09-11-2013 at 09:56 PM.

  3. #103
    Community Member Erofen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    584

    Smile Orien All Rogue Shroud! Long Live R.O.G.U.E! :D

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    ...i experienced the ultimate in BYOH self sufficient teamwork 2 nights ago... in the 3rd R.O.G.U.E. all rogue shroud on Orien. most or all of us showed up with our own resist wands/SF pots/heal scrolls, etc... but we did not reserve them for ourselves only... we hjealed ourselves and each other as was needed (in fact, after 2 deaths in quick succession in part 5, i stood back for the rest of the fight and threw a heal scroll at anyone and everyone who dipped dangerously low), and one guy who had some wizard levels provided hage. and we had a blast!
    ^^ThisI absolutely loved this shroud! (btw... did I mention I got the killing blow on harry? XD) I would toss cocoons here and there like at R's toons he is not playing atm while duo-boxing and a fresh rogue who just used the LR 20 to get in. I ARE CLERIC! and some of the hage may have been from me. not majority but I used the brawns spirits or whatever and the epic goggles of time sensing. either way... (off point there) this was a combination of teamwork and byohahoo (bring your own heals and help out others). we did have to wait a while to finally get it filled but also got to enjoy being able to have to rely on ourselves. I hope we do more of these soon Katz!
    Orien: ~Erofen (30 Assassin Rogue) ~Erofenlock (22 EB Warlock) ~Erofenmonk (28 Light Monk) ~Erofentrap (25 Roguerficer (1st TR/Legend Build ever)) ~Erofenbarb (28 Barb) ~Erofenbless (28 FvS Chest Blesser) ~Erofenthree (28 Cleric Dualbox) ~Erofenten (20 Barb Triplebox)
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Um, I'm almost afraid to ask, but exactly just what is 'sneak humping'? Kex! Stop It! O.o

  4. #104
    Community Member Erofen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    584

    Default

    *^^This! I
    Orien: ~Erofen (30 Assassin Rogue) ~Erofenlock (22 EB Warlock) ~Erofenmonk (28 Light Monk) ~Erofentrap (25 Roguerficer (1st TR/Legend Build ever)) ~Erofenbarb (28 Barb) ~Erofenbless (28 FvS Chest Blesser) ~Erofenthree (28 Cleric Dualbox) ~Erofenten (20 Barb Triplebox)
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Um, I'm almost afraid to ask, but exactly just what is 'sneak humping'? Kex! Stop It! O.o

  5. #105
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7,154

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Erofen View Post
    ^^ThisI absolutely loved this shroud! (btw... did I mention I got the killing blow on harry? XD) I would toss cocoons here and there like at R's toons he is not playing atm while duo-boxing and a fresh rogue who just used the LR 20 to get in. I ARE CLERIC! and some of the hage may have been from me. not majority but I used the brawns spirits or whatever and the epic goggles of time sensing. either way... (off point there) this was a combination of teamwork and byohahoo (bring your own heals and help out others). we did have to wait a while to finally get it filled but also got to enjoy being able to have to rely on ourselves. I hope we do more of these soon Katz!
    That was totally awesome, and doing great things like that with you all, was really what revitalizes the game for me, just makes it fun to do and be more then a class or a role, ya know. That is what Team Work is all about.

    I made a totally gimp used to be a pure pally turned rogue with a +20 heart of wood for that run, boy was that painful.. LOL.

  6. #106
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,564

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    However, with Forced-Cooperation, that would get warped into a DM saying: "To force everyone to communicate and work as a team, you need to kill the boss in each tower at the same time" which really amounts to the group needs to spit up and solo a tower making self-sufficiency king. The only problem I see with this, is that people who like to solo, get the shaft.
    Well, that is one way of looking at it. But let's be a little more imaginative. A DM could also say, "To force everyone to communicate and work as a team, you will all need to work together to kill each boss because each boss will have a real defense set up, not something that could be easily eliminated with a single person of any class or ability. You know, like someone who was really trying to out think his adversary would do, not just the stereotypical cartoon bad guy. Series of random traps together with serious ambushes that would require several people working together getting each other's backs and fulfilling roles as required.

    There is a lot more to teamwork than everyone going in a different direction and then meeting back at the end chest when they're done. I keep seeing this thrown up as an example of the ultimate teamwork or something, but it is not the only way to work together. It is only possible because of a lack of randomization, no clever defenses on the part of the monsters, and meta gaming on the part of the players.

  7. #107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    There is a lot more to teamwork than everyone going in a different direction and then meeting back at the end chest when they're done. I keep seeing this thrown up as an example of the ultimate teamwork or something
    It's not being thrown up as an example of "ultimate" teamwork, it's presented as an example of "teamwork" because many dependent-party advocates insist that it is NOT teamwork at all.

  8. #108
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7,154

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    There is a lot more to teamwork than everyone going in a different direction and then meeting back at the end chest when they're done. I keep seeing this thrown up as an example of the ultimate teamwork or something, but it is not the only way to work together. It is only possible because of a lack of randomization, no clever defenses on the part of the monsters, and meta gaming on the part of the players.
    As it has been pointed out, that is not the ultimate form of team work, but it is team work none the less, and it seems that some people do not realize that or simply do not want to accept it as such. And right now, as far as DDO goes, making it so that people have to split up is about the only way to force players to have to work with other players, because if we want, we can make builds that can fill many varying roles.

    Well, that is one way of looking at it. But let's be a little more imaginative. A DM could also say, "To force everyone to communicate and work as a team, you will all need to work together to kill each boss because each boss will have a real defense set up, not something that could be easily eliminated with a single person of any class or ability. You know, like someone who was really trying to out think his adversary would do, not just the stereotypical cartoon bad guy. Series of random traps together with serious ambushes that would require several people working together getting each other's backs and fulfilling roles as required.
    To be fair, these kinds of elements have been peppered into dungeons all over this game. A Prime example of this would be Sins, that has both Ambushes, and Traps, not to mention several rooms each with it's own theme. Another great example would be Stealer of Souls, with many varying defenses and themes to fight, that require many skills and abilities to get past.

    I'll be honest, those dungeons offer a fun ambiance, but both of these dungeons get soloed. I am not against more dynamic design being put in the game or adding features that could make grouping or adding people to the group more profitable, like what Tear does, while at the same time making soloing possible as well. That would be fun too, a lot of fun.

  9. #109
    Blogger and Hatchery Hero
    2015 DDO Players Council
    katz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Texas - the most "MURICA!" part of 'murica! rawr
    Posts
    3,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Someone soloed FOT??? Wow, that would be both time consuming and tough. They must be fantastic players - what build?

    FOT's fun. Pretty easy. Just kill two sets of three dragon-giant pairs, tank/kite the Reaver to one side, beat the **** out of the main bad guy, dodge, kill or CC the trash, done in 15 minutes.

    several people have solo'ed FoT, actually, but the guy we know who did it is a monkcher AA. i think he said it took him an hour to do it.

    the official home of LOLWUT

    LONG LIVE R.O.G.U.E ! Pay2Win AND PROUD
    Q: how do you get me to instantly appear in a thread? A: ask a bard question!

  10. #110
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Ranger spell-powers getting nerfed so bye-bye cocoon.

    Now hjeal meh!

  11. #111
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    21,796

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    how exactly do you "force cooperation" without forcing players to be dependent on each other? i'm fascinated to hear your answer.
    Its not tough really. The situation is either party works together, or they dont complete. This has absolutely nothing to do with dependence. If you read the pages in the DMG that describe this, they even highlight a few examples. of what a DM can do when a party is not working together, and none of them require the party to be dependent. This translates into a computer game quite nicely as the devs in the first 2 years understood, when they created quests that required more thought, and didnt have to take away from the hack and slash element to do so.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-13-2013 at 10:21 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #112
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    10,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Ranger spell-powers getting nerfed so bye-bye cocoon.

    Now hjeal meh!
    What do you mean exactly? I do think the ranger spell power is done incorrectly some of it should be in later tiers although overall seems about the right amount. The fact is I have guildies that have pure level 20 rogues in shadowdancer who equip spell point items and devotion items and cast cocoon on themselves and soon I will follow suit almost certainly on my pure rogue. Although DDO is more about shortmanning and soloing then it was in the past which makes coccon like abilities more important - rogues, pure fighters, pure barbarians using cocoon seems over the top. If/when they nerf cocoon hopefully they do it soon because many people like myself are getting addicted to it.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  13. #113
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    What do you mean exactly?
    You need to spend 30 points in deepwood to get the devotion you can get now.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    If/when they nerf cocoon hopefully they do it soon because many people like myself are getting addicted to it.
    This is trying to fix something that isn't broken. All casters can self heal (except the stupid ones), giving an ability for melees to do the same at this point in the game isn't a problem.

  14. #114
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    10,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You need to spend 30 points in deepwood to get the devotion you can get now.



    This is trying to fix something that isn't broken. All casters can self heal (except the stupid ones), giving an ability for melees to do the same at this point in the game isn't a problem.
    Cocoon is too powerful. I would argue it is more powerful then the heal spell. So you would be fine with melee having access to the heal spell? I am not fine with that. Coccon is a cheesy shortcut rather then the devs putting the work in and making a better game. Cocoon is also a huge nerf to barbarians because they can not use it while raged.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  15. #115
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Cocoon is too powerful.
    Debatable. It's better than heal-scrolls and does require less investment to use in combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I would argue it is more powerful then the heal spell.
    absolute nonsense, come on that a ridiculous statement. 12 second cooldown with a HOT effect . . . compared to heal? Most of the time if I want to get the most of the cocoon I can't stay in combat, i need to not get hit for a few seconds while it ticks away. Heal just hits for so much more and has a faster cooldown.

    Hyperbole isn't needed, you can make your point without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Coccon is a cheesy shortcut rather then the devs putting the work in and making a better game.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Cocoon is also a huge nerf to barbarians because they can not use it while raged.
    Also agreed.

    But saying it's better than a heal spell? That's just nuts.

  16. #116
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    684

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Debatable. It's better than heal-scrolls and does require less investment to use in combat.



    absolute nonsense, come on that a ridiculous statement. 12 second cooldown with a HOT effect . . . compared to heal? Most of the time if I want to get the most of the cocoon I can't stay in combat, i need to not get hit for a few seconds while it ticks away. Heal just hits for so much more and has a faster cooldown.

    Hyperbole isn't needed, you can make your point without it.



    Agreed.



    Also agreed.

    But saying it's better than a heal spell? That's just nuts.
    You're doing it sub-optimally. You cast coccoon before you get hit, not after, to maximize its usefulness. It is more powerful than the heal spell when used properly because you don't have gear switching lag, and it's no fail regardless of your potential for being debuffed. Coccoon's my goto choice for healing first, then scroll if I absolutely have to.

  17. #117
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    You're doing it sub-optimally. You cast coccoon before you get hit, not after, to maximize its usefulness. It is more powerful than the heal spell when used properly because you don't have gear switching lag, and it's no fail regardless of your potential for be debuffed. Coccoon's my goto choice for healing first, then scroll if I absolutely have to.
    You have it all wrong, I tell YOU have to play not the other way around. I thought the pecking order was well-established here?

    That 150 HP buffer doesn't do squat when mobs hit for 300+ a shot.

    I will keep you in mind if I'm ever looking for advice on how to run Epic Casual.

  18. #118
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    10,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You have it all wrong, I tell YOU have to play not the other way around. I thought the pecking order was well-established here?

    That 150 HP buffer doesn't do squat when mobs hit for 300+ a shot.

    I will keep you in mind if I'm ever looking for advice on how to run Epic Casual.
    Well I do it both ways before or after damage. If you figure that if you know that you are going to take damage then you hit coccon right before and while you are taking damage it ticks healing on you and then you have a cooldown. At other times I do coccon after I take damage. It depends a lot on what I am fighting in terms of numbers and mob types.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  19. #119
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    2,435

    Default

    Cocoon and such save sp. Melees have to move in ee or they are dead. Thus, HoTs trump single target heals/burst healing. Cocoon is OP, because of its range, not amount of healed hp.

    I twisted Healing Spring on my Barb. People love that. Dead dps is still 0 dps.
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  20. #120
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Cocoon and such save sp. Melees have to move in ee or they are dead. Thus, HoTs trump single target heals/burst healing. Cocoon is OP, because of its range, not amount of healed hp.
    if cocoon is the problem nerf cocoon, not the ranger class.

Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload