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  1. #21
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    The whole self-sufficient issue has 2 main causes.

    1. The 10% xp bonus for not dying and the obscene amounts of xp needed to TR

    2. Players abusing healers

    The first part has been discusses in great detail. Love it or hate it, its there until Turbine says it isn't.

    The second part I can speak from experience. It dates back from the days of the constant shroud runs. People were always looking for healers, and I playing a cleric as my main, was more than willing to help.

    But after awhile pugs started to just get plain nasty. Not only did you have to deal with that 250 hp rogue, who told you he was doing "all sorts of back stab damage", but you just had many players with just zero defenses (granted the theme at the time was all dps, kill them before they kill you). Some pugs were fine, others were drains. After awhile I (and many other healers) began to get very choosey, looking at the party make-ups, using My DDO etc. I wasn't interested in joining a pug, if I was going to use 4 or 5 pots trying to keep people up... on normal.

    Even the groups I did join, if someone died and you lost 10%, well it was always my fault, never the guy who was around the corner and blocked on his own. And people were more than happy to tell me this over voice. Eventually I said to heck with it, I play to have fun, not be verbally abused and from then on, my poor main has been relegated to friends and guild runs only.

    I know I was not alone in these feelings, which has lead to a massive decrease in healers available to pug. So players have adjusted their tactics to learn to live without healers and now you get the very small groups you have today.
    People who tell me over voice that their death was my fault because I should have healed them while they were around two corners, dont even get a response. I just dont group with them any more. I dont see this issue anywhere near as much in game as I do on the forums however. I also dont change my PUG habbits on a healing class.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #22
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Oh was this your point?

    Ok that's nice, you had cute fun day playing with your son in a sweet little static group running a quest and made you all nostalgic and forgetful of all the drama and frustration that forced interdependence caused this game for years on end.

    Look, I'm glad you and your son had a fun quest together, and you got to play his hero by keeping him alive, and you could see how happy he was to enjoy that moment with you. Yah, I totally understand that, I used to play with my cousins a while back before they moved on to other games.

    But, NO, look, wake up, that era and time was done a while ago, caused by the ****storm that was the whole "Divines are not healers" movement, and to be blunt, while maybe you had a grand day in your family static group with your son that perhaps is growing up to fast and this was a moment to reconnect with him. But to use that to try to force the game to go back to "needing a healer", all i can say is thankfully that train left the station. I would hate going back to needing a healer, that era sucked, self sufficiency made it so we can play with who we want, when we want, doing the quests we want as the classes we want. The days of that Drama over forced dependency are gone, and thankfully so.

    Yah, great way to ruin what could have been a great story about You and your son having a grand day, but the last thing anyone in this game needs to go back to the dark ages of needing a healer to do quests.
    That thing you call the "dark ages" is really called "forced cooperation" - which is what D&D is about. Ive seen you talk about how this game needs to be closer to D&D a few times now. Note that "forced cooperation" doesnt mean you have a heal spell so thats all youre going to do is sit back and heal damaged party members. It does mean working together as a team rather than what we have nowdays, which is 6 people all in the same quest instance soloing.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #23
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Thanks for that post, OP. I agree, teams can still be fun and certainly viable. You just have to be selective. I tried putting "team players" in the lfm, but that didn't work. As time goes on the game evolves. It has evolved into a self sufficient (self absorbed?) race against something... not even sure what.

    I can't tell you how many times I've had a toon with a couple levels of rogue in a party with no other trapper, and gone through a couple of quests with the same group, getting all the traps, and then having the group say "we can't do this next one without a trapper". How can you expect teamwork when so many folks aren't even aware of what the other party members are doing, unless it's healing them or dying.

  4. #24
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I like teamwork. I dislike inter-dependency.

    Here are two of many reasons:
    1-People abuse the person they are relying on when they are not preforming perfectly.
    2-People who are relied on abuse their power over others.

    Teamwork is a lot of fun when you are doing it because it is fun. Dependency sucks because you don't have a choice and you are at someone else's mercy. I do not think my opinion on this will ever change.

    People build for self sufficiency for more reasons than just the ability to solo. It is a factor, but not the only one. Someone who is self sufficient, is also capable of helping others more than someone who is not. Healer goes down, barbarian uses clickie and raises them, quest continues; rather than healer goes down, party wipes. Tell me, if your rogue duo had not been able to heal yourselves, would you have even completed the quest?

    One of the best traits of this game is being able to pick up the first people who join you and start having fun rather than waiting and waiting forever for just the right combination of people to join you. For example a while ago I posted an LFM for a EE chrono run. All the lfm said was accepting the first people to hit lfm. We ended up going without a healer. Several of us died, but we were able to get a completion (thanks voraxen for tanking the abishai on your wizard), and we did it without having to have a specific type of character. Every single person there raised someone at least once, and I know my sorc was throwing out heal scrolls to those who needed them pretty often.

    So to finish: teamwork is fun, dependency is not.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Feithlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    The second part I can speak from experience. It dates back from the days of the constant shroud runs. People were always looking for healers, and I playing a cleric as my main, was more than willing to help.

    But after awhile pugs started to just get plain nasty. Not only did you have to deal with that 250 hp rogue, who told you he was doing "all sorts of back stab damage", but you just had many players with just zero defenses (granted the theme at the time was all dps, kill them before they kill you). Some pugs were fine, others were drains. After awhile I (and many other healers) began to get very choosey, looking at the party make-ups, using My DDO etc. I wasn't interested in joining a pug, if I was going to use 4 or 5 pots trying to keep people up... on normal.

    Even the groups I did join, if someone died and you lost 10%, well it was always my fault, never the guy who was around the corner and blocked on his own. And people were more than happy to tell me this over voice. Eventually I said to heck with it, I play to have fun, not be verbally abused and from then on, my poor main has been relegated to friends and guild runs only.

    I know I was not alone in these feelings, which has lead to a massive decrease in healers available to pug. So players have adjusted their tactics to learn to live without healers and now you get the very small groups you have today.
    IMO, the main reason for the intensification of healers' abuse is the introduction of hirelings. People get accustomed to having someone (if you can call an hireling "someone") following you to heal you constantly. I don't say hirelings are bad -- I use them a lot -- because they allow you to play any character without having to wait for a complete group, but everyone should play a healer to know what it is. There are too many bragging barbs with epeen complexe who never anything but them.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Oh was this your point?

    Ok that's nice, you had cute fun day playing with your son in a sweet little static group running a quest and made you all nostalgic and forgetful of all the drama and frustration that forced interdependence caused this game for years on end.

    Look, I'm glad you and your son had a fun quest together, and you got to play his hero by keeping him alive, and you could see how happy he was to enjoy that moment with you. Yah, I totally understand that, I used to play with my cousins a while back before they moved on to other games.

    But, NO, look, wake up, that era and time was done a while ago, caused by the ****storm that was the whole "Divines are not healers" movement, and to be blunt, while maybe you had a grand day in your family static group with your son that perhaps is growing up to fast and this was a moment to reconnect with him. But to use that to try to force the game to go back to "needing a healer", all i can say is thankfully that train left the station. I would hate going back to needing a healer, that era sucked, self sufficiency made it so we can play with who we want, when we want, doing the quests we want as the classes we want. The days of that Drama over forced dependency are gone, and thankfully so.

    Yah, great way to ruin what could have been a great story about You and your son having a grand day, but the last thing anyone in this game needs to go back to the dark ages of needing a healer to do quests.
    There are always going to be some who feel they need specific roles in their group to run quests, but in today's game self sufficiency has been crammed down our throats and quest challenge has been nerfed considerably for some time now. Most times when I join a group and there's no actual "healer" people will either offer to help spot heal within the boundaries of their build, the party leader will leave spot #6 open if someone wants to grab a hire or the players in the group a lot of times are aware they need to be self sufficient. I've come across a lot more people asking the FVS/cleric if they are focusing on meleeing or if they will help heal because you never know these what they will do. Most times, the expectation for "healers" are in raids and I have seen lfms and been in raid groups without the role of "healer". This is what the game has become. Once in awhile actually playing a specific role can be fun.

  7. #27
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feithlin View Post
    IMO, the main reason for the intensification of healers' abuse is the introduction of hirelings. People get accustomed to having someone (if you can call an hireling "someone") following you to heal you constantly. I don't say hirelings are bad -- I use them a lot -- because they allow you to play any character without having to wait for a complete group, but everyone should play a healer to know what it is. There are too many bragging barbs with epeen complexe who never anything but them.
    agreed.
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  8. #28
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    Wow, two Rogues were bad at a quest with waves and waves of enemies? Well, boy did I not see that coming. If it were any standard "advance through rooms/hallways" quest, you could have duoed it easily, especially if you play your rogues like rogues and not like fighters with UMD.

    It's sad that having someone heal you is the only teamwork in this game that people consider as teamwork. Self sufficiency does not harm the game, it makes it better.
    Last edited by Qezuzu; 09-10-2013 at 12:48 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feithlin View Post
    IMO, the main reason for the intensification of healers' abuse is the introduction of hirelings. People get accustomed to having someone (if you can call an hireling "someone") following you to heal you constantly. I don't say hirelings are bad -- I use them a lot -- because they allow you to play any character without having to wait for a complete group, but everyone should play a healer to know what it is. There are too many bragging barbs with epeen complexe who never anything but them.
    This conversation always ends up about barbarians bragging at some point, and while I see this on the forums alot, I rarely see it in game. The barbarians are too busy wondering how they are going to get their HP back up to full while the divine blade barriers everything down in heroics to even remember they need to brag from time to time. Then in epics, everyone else with a THF weapon is using their destiny to show them they arent needed as a class anymore.

    The major issue with this game in this era, as that barbarians are restricted when rage is active.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #30
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    I have an eSOS kensai who I switched around a bit from pure 20 to multiclass. I'd love to see how he performs with his new class split, but I didn't get to cocoon yet. Healing via SF pots sucks. Previously he used the cleric helf dilly to use scrolls, but that enhancement line is not worth it anymore, it's too expensive. So he is shelved because I don't want someone else to have to wipe my behind, so to speak, while I'm questing with him. I have a dozen other characters to worry about before him, so he's not really a priority, but it'd be nice to run him a bit.

  11. #31
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    That thing you call the "dark ages" is really called "forced cooperation" - which is what D&D is about. Ive seen you talk about how this game needs to be closer to D&D a few times now. Note that "forced cooperation" doesnt mean you have a heal spell so thats all youre going to do is sit back and heal damaged party members. It does mean working together as a team rather than what we have nowdays, which is 6 people all in the same quest instance soloing.
    Regarding forced cooperation . . . when on my arcane or divine casters now with 300k HP red-names I want some full-retard DPS in my group.

  12. #32
    The Hatchery Bonulino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Regarding forced cooperation . . . when on my arcane or divine casters now with 300k HP red-names I want some full-retard DPS in my group.
    You got that right! My Cleric DOES NOT want to take on Harry! Let the Barbarians and Fighters and Paladins get in there and take the lumps! They have the HP and DPS and AC to handle it. My Cleric does not.
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  13. #33
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonulino View Post
    You got that right! My Cleric DOES NOT want to take on Harry! Let the Barbarians and Fighters and Paladins get in there and take the lumps! They have the HP and DPS and AC to handle it. My Cleric does not.
    Please don't ever accuse a paladin of being DPS.

  14. #34
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    That thing you call the "dark ages" is really called "forced cooperation" - which is what D&D is about. Ive seen you talk about how this game needs to be closer to D&D a few times now. Note that "forced cooperation" doesnt mean you have a heal spell so thats all youre going to do is sit back and heal damaged party members. It does mean working together as a team rather than what we have nowdays, which is 6 people all in the same quest instance soloing.
    Sorry but DnD was never about forced cooperation, it was about a group of people playing a game, and sometimes each of them had to head off and take of a solo objective or side quest, and did not need to bring a whole circus of support to make it happen. This Forced Dependency is purely a MMO thing.

    Given how much you brutalize terms, lets not Mistake "team work" for needing to staple a healer to a barbs backside.. k?

  15. #35
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonulino View Post
    Lighten up a bit. Some of us love the team play thing and don't get bent out of shape by fulfilling a specific role in the party. And, BTW, there are Clerics who enjoy the role of healers. Just because you don't like the interdependence of a team, doesn't mean you have to ridicule those who do.
    Oh hello.

    Maybe you were not there for the fun times, maybe you were, and things did not turn out to your liking these days, who knows, and not to be rude, I don't care.

    Here's the deal, when I started to play this game people needed healers, and that unfortunately prompted some people who play divines to get a very inflated sense of self worth, and go on strikes and make a fuss and become to resent their "role" as healer, this problem infested many other players who may have had originally no issues with being a healer, to join the bandwagon of resenting the role of divines being healers.

    There were all kinds of problems, drama, resentment, and thankfully, with the ED's Turbine started to patch the problem, but more then that, a good chuck of the players who at one time were fully content to just play a role of tank, or DPS, or what have you, were forced to move on, to become self sufficient, to modify their builds, or risk the ire of dealing with some divine that was going to teach them a lesson about depending them for healing.

    Dropping our stones in lava, leaving us behind and laughing, kicking from the group, ridiculing our kill count because we had to spend half the time chugging CSW pots, not to mention outrage if we summoned a hire. So no, that era sucked.

    It was horrible, and moving on towards everyone being more self sufficient has made the groups I have joined far more pleasant, I can pug openly, take anyone that hits the LFM, and don't need to deal with ego, vanity, or resentment of being needed, or whatever that problem was that caused that ****storm to start with. We just go in and get the quest done, sometimes we each take separate objectives to get things done faster, and it feels like that is the way the game should have been played at the start, as opposed to waiting for some stranger to fill a role. If you have a static group and want to role play, go crazy, just don't force that on me.

    So, now, there is a move for everyone to tend their own, I mean really, the top players always did tend their own, but it began to trickle down till it became a cultural shift in the game for everyone to need to take care of their own.

    So no one is stopping you from playing a healer, if that is what you want to do, that is fine, however, needing a healer is never something I want to ever, and I mean... EVER... go back to.

    So play the way you want, just don't impact the way I want to play.
    Last edited by Ungood; 09-10-2013 at 03:50 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Sorry but DnD was never about forced cooperation, it was about a group of people playing a game, and sometimes each of them had to head off and take of a solo objective or side quest, and did not need to bring a whole circus of support to make it happen. This Forced Dependency is purely a MMO thing.

    Given how much you brutalize terms, lets not Mistake "team work" for needing to staple a healer to a barbs backside.. k?
    "Sometimes had to head off on their own."

    Sometimes As in very rarely? Or as in frequently in your PnP games?

  17. #37
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Sorry but DnD was never about forced cooperation, it was about a group of people playing a game, and sometimes each of them had to head off and take of a solo objective or side quest, and did not need to bring a whole circus of support to make it happen. This Forced Dependency is purely a MMO thing.

    Given how much you brutalize terms, lets not Mistake "team work" for needing to staple a healer to a barbs backside.. k?
    D&D was and is always about forced cooperation. Theres even a few pages in the first DMG about how to force cooperation in encounters where the group isnt working together for some reason or another. After reading that, you should read the post you quoted, because theres this little ditty in there that reads as follows:

    Note that "forced cooperation" doesnt mean you have a heal spell so thats all youre going to do is sit back and heal damaged party members
    Did you read that part of the post you quoted? I dont think you did because you replied IN AGREEMENT with me, even though attempting to disagree and being all crass due to past disagreements in the process.

    Forced coopation =/= dependency and building one trick pony characters, however your idea of stapeling a healer to the barbarians backside is just as hilarious as 6 players in the same quest instance, but instead of playing together they are soloing. This is what we have nowdays. Youre simply justifying one extreme due to loathing the other, but both are equally terribad.

    Co-dependancy has always been an MMO thing. Forced cooperation is what D&D is all about, not co-dependancy. A great example of forced cooperation where the party isnt even in the same room together is the quest in necropolis where the party splits up, and has to throw levers together on other places of the map to let the other players into the next room. Each time party A throws a lever, party B gets to advance and so on.

    Seems some people are bitter about barbarians. Every time one of these self sufficiency threads pops up barbarians are being taken to task about needing a healer to ride shotgun in order to survive.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-10-2013 at 04:08 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #38
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Oh hello.

    Maybe you were not there for the fun times, maybe you were, and things did not turn out to your liking these days, who knows, and not to be rude, I don't care.

    Here's the deal, when I started to play this game people needed healers, and that unfortunately prompted some people who play divines to get a very inflated sense of self worth, and go on strikes and make a fuss and become to resent their "role" as healer, this problem infested many other players who may have had originally no issues with being a healer, to join the bandwagon of resenting the role of divines being healers.

    There were all kinds of problems, drama, resentment, and thankfully, with the ED's Turbine started to patch the problem, but more then that, a good chuck of the players who at one time were fully content to just play a role of tank, or DPS, or what have you, were forced to move on, to become self sufficient, to modify their builds, or risk the ire of dealing with some divine that was going to teach them a lesson about depending them for healing.

    Dropping our stones in lava, leaving us behind and laughing, kicking from the group, ridiculing our kill count because we had to spend half the time chugging CSW pots, not to mention outrage if we summoned a hire. So no, that era sucked.

    It was horrible, and moving on towards everyone being more self sufficient has made the groups I have joined far more pleasant, I can pug openly, take anyone that hits the LFM, and don't need to deal with ego, vanity, or resentment of being needed, or whatever that problem was that caused that ****storm to start with. We just go in and get the quest done, sometimes we each take separate objectives to get things done faster, and it feels like that is the way the game should have been played at the start, as opposed to waiting for some stranger to fill a role. If you have a static group and want to role play, go crazy, just don't force that on me.

    So, now, there is a move for everyone to tend their own, I mean really, the top players always did tend their own, but it began to trickle down till it became a cultural shift in the game for everyone to need to take care of their own.

    So no one is stopping you from playing a healer, if that is what you want to do, that is fine, however, needing a healer is never something I want to ever, and I mean... EVER... go back to.

    So play the way you want, just don't impact the way I want to play.
    something to chew on...

    if you remember back during the "buffbot" and "healbot" days, questing was significantly harder compared to today. wipes on normal were not uncommon. most players wouldn't dream of stepping into an elite quest without a dedicated healer because the quests were THAT difficult. divines and arcanes wanted to do more than just heal and just buff parties. fast forward to today and we got nerfed quests, divines and arcanes do a lot more than just heal and buff (they were the kings of scroll farming epics pre-epic levels), self sufficiency was beaten into our heads that WE need to be able to take care of ourselves and don't expect help from others. players are now soloing a lot more than they could back then or short manning and doing this without a "buffbot" and "healbot". we were given ships with buffs that satisfies our basic needs for a quest without having to go through the hassle of asking for a buff. the arguments today are more about teamwork than about clerics need to be healers or sorcerers need to be buffers. that's our biggest problem today in groups, but there always some people who confuse teamwork with "im not your nanny".

  19. #39
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Regarding forced cooperation . . . when on my arcane or divine casters now with 300k HP red-names I want some full-retard DPS in my group.
    I swear they just lean on the zero key until it breaks, when the HP total is arbitrarily arrived at.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #40
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I swear they just lean on the zero key until it breaks, when the HP total is arbitrarily arrived at.
    I would believe this.
    Matt Walsh:
    But Truth is eternal, so it can never be old or new. It never ‘was’ or ‘will be.’ It just ‘is.’ It always ‘is.’

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