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  1. #1
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    Default Self sufficiency gone wild already? Teams are still fun.

    I am beginning to miss those LFMs with "healer needed please". Or "Tanks welcome".
    Seems like every build out there assumes the need for soloing elites and self healing.

    Since U19 I have mostly played on my now lvl 27 rogue. He is high DPS and can self heal with cocoon, dragonmarks and scrolls. However when a guildy and I went to duo Breaking the Ranks on EH, it took us a surprising "awhile", + one reentry each. We are both versions of Rogue, both can self heal and we were both blitzing. There were enough mobs in there to keep both of us blitzing forever. But it was not smooth, it was not fast. We both died multiple times.

    Yesterday I went back in with my son, a blitzing pre-LR20 good old 16/2/2 bard ftr rogue, and my pre-LR20 pure FvS evoker. Both lvl 25. We crushed it. It was certainly intense and a lot of fun, but it took us pretty much about the minimum time needed for everything to spawn, about 16-17 min, no deaths.
    I spammed BB, Divine wrath, Implosions and healed us. He blitzed. Shrined once.

    In other words, we each did our jobs.
    We were a team.
    It was fun.

    Now sure, I am sure many of you already soloed it on EE. Good for you (btw the scaling is borked. It's WAY harder with 2 man than 1. (Even though solo I also died on my rogue, still just too many of em). But man, it was fun to remember how to play as a team. With someone depending on you. And it was fast.

    Oh and btw, at least on EH, DC was fine. Was getting implosions and the BB was hitting for 600-1200 ish. This helped him get kills a bit faster and also took some of the agro off him.

    Anyway, just saying that because he did not have to waste time self healing with cocoon and scrolls, rather just concentrate on mashing his tactical buttons, making sure he was constantly displaced and hasted etc, which is also a lot to pay attention to, we did far better than 2 DPS self healing toons. And yes, this is of course anecdotal and I am sure many DPS solo's and duo's can also crush it, but my point is, we seem to have lost the interdependancey we used to have. And I want it back
    Last edited by SSFWEl; 09-10-2013 at 08:39 AM.
    ~~ Adrunil - Rogue. Halfling, big guy you can't miss him. ~~
    ~~ Adrunel - Monkcher. (Moncher?) ~~
    Robodoc - FvS Evoker-Healer. Post 19: Ended up LRing into 13/7 forc
    Orien server.

  2. #2
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSFWEl View Post
    I am beginning to miss those LFMs with "healer needed please". Or "Tanks welcome".
    Seems like every build out there assumes the need for soloing elites and self healing.

    Since U19 I have mostly played on my now lvl 27 rogue. He is high DPS and can self heal with cocoon, dragonmarks and scrolls. However when a guildy and I went to duo Breaking the Ranks on EH, it took us a surprising "awhile", + one reentry each. We are both versions of Rogue, both can self heal and we were both blitzing. There were enough mobs in there to keep both of us blitzing forever. But it was not smooth, it was not fast. We both died multiple times.

    Yesterday I went back in with my son, a blitzing pre-LR20 good old 16/2/2 bard ftr rogue, and my pre-LR20 pure FvS evoker. Both lvl 25. We crushed it. It was certainly intense and a lot of fun, but it took us pretty much about the minimum time needed for everything to spawn, about 16-17 min, no deaths.
    I spammed BB, Divine wrath, Implosions and healed us. He blitzed. Shrined once.

    In other words, we each did our jobs.
    We were a team.
    It was fun.

    Now sure, I am sure many of you already soloed it on EE. Good for you (btw the scaling is borked. It's WAY harder with 2 man than 1. (Even though solo I also died on my rogue, still just too many of em). But man, it was fun to remember how to play as a team. With someone depending on you. And it was fast.

    Oh and btw, at least on EH, DC was fine. Was getting implosions and the BB was hitting for 600-1200 ish. This helped him get kills a bit faster and also took some of the agro off him.

    Anyway, just saying that because he did not have to waste time self healing with cocoon and scrolls, rather just concentrate on mashing his tactical buttons, making sure he was constantly displaced and hasted etc, which is also a lot to pay attention to, we did far better than 2 DPS self healing toons. And yes, this is of course anecdotal and I am sure many DPS solo's and duo's can also crush it, but my point is, we seem to have lost the interdependancey we used to have. And I want it back
    It's nice to see teamwork in action. Self healing is really being pushed these days and I don't blame people for wanting to play that way. I make sure my toons can self heal because I don't want to be the person in the group that has to wait on a healer or simply not play because I can't keep myself up. It's a personal preference of mine. I don't want the leader being forced to find a healer for me if he otherwise would not have to.

    I've also been gravitating toward low man EH runs lately. I've been finding a real lack of interaction in EE content that I've been playing. It typically turns into a "follow the blitzer" zerg fest where I struggle to do anything constructive at all before someone else kills it. Sure we complete, but I feel no sense of accomplishment at all, like I was just piking. EE is just not for everyone. I agree it can be challenging, but it's so far removed from the "balance" that we have in EN and EH for DC, AC, HP, saves, etc. that it's just not the same game really.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    It's nice to see teamwork in action. Self healing is really being pushed these days and I don't blame people for wanting to play that way. I make sure my toons can self heal because I don't want to be the person in the group that has to wait on a healer or simply not play because I can't keep myself up. It's a personal preference of mine. I don't want the leader being forced to find a healer for me if he otherwise would not have to. .
    Heck, both of my non healer toons have self healing for some of the reasons you state. And as a healer, I always appreciate someone being able to save himself until I can get to him. I am not coming out against having self healz. I just miss not HAVING to worry about it all the time. And the advantages we seem to have forgotten to having various roles.
    ~~ Adrunil - Rogue. Halfling, big guy you can't miss him. ~~
    ~~ Adrunel - Monkcher. (Moncher?) ~~
    Robodoc - FvS Evoker-Healer. Post 19: Ended up LRing into 13/7 forc
    Orien server.

  4. #4
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Teams are fun, yes. But waiting on healers is not. Most of the content is steamrolled to the point where you spend more time waiting for a healing than in the quest anyway.

  5. #5
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    The whole self-sufficient issue has 2 main causes.

    1. The 10% xp bonus for not dying and the obscene amounts of xp needed to TR

    2. Players abusing healers

    The first part has been discusses in great detail. Love it or hate it, its there until Turbine says it isn't.

    The second part I can speak from experience. It dates back from the days of the constant shroud runs. People were always looking for healers, and I playing a cleric as my main, was more than willing to help.

    But after awhile pugs started to just get plain nasty. Not only did you have to deal with that 250 hp rogue, who told you he was doing "all sorts of back stab damage", but you just had many players with just zero defenses (granted the theme at the time was all dps, kill them before they kill you). Some pugs were fine, others were drains. After awhile I (and many other healers) began to get very choosey, looking at the party make-ups, using My DDO etc. I wasn't interested in joining a pug, if I was going to use 4 or 5 pots trying to keep people up... on normal.

    Even the groups I did join, if someone died and you lost 10%, well it was always my fault, never the guy who was around the corner and blocked on his own. And people were more than happy to tell me this over voice. Eventually I said to heck with it, I play to have fun, not be verbally abused and from then on, my poor main has been relegated to friends and guild runs only.

    I know I was not alone in these feelings, which has lead to a massive decrease in healers available to pug. So players have adjusted their tactics to learn to live without healers and now you get the very small groups you have today.
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  6. #6
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Teams are fun, yes. But waiting on healers is not. Most of the content is steamrolled to the point where you spend more time waiting for a healing than in the quest anyway.
    That's pretty much it, I built my guys to self-heal (at least a little) so I don't have to wait on healers.

    With that said . . . I wouldn't mid seeing more full-****** DPSers now since the mob-density in the new stuff it very high and the redname HP (in EE at least, haven't run the other difficulties) is just plain nuts.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 09-10-2013 at 09:32 AM.

  7. #7

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    I'm shocked, SHOCKED!, that an evoker fvs plus a melee had an easier time than two melees in EH content.

  8. #8
    The Hatchery Bonulino's Avatar
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    I agree with the OP that team work is fun and makes for a smoother run. My Cleric toon is optimized for healing. She can't take down the end bosses. She needs the melees for that. She is perfectly willing to "let her blue bar be their red bars" because their red bars are also her red bar. After all, if all the dps'ers die, the monster is coming after the one who is left, the healer Cleric. So, my Cleric has no problems throwing heals and letting the melees do the beat down on the boss.
    Snarly Dwarf Chick With A Great Axe

  9. #9
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonulino View Post
    I agree with the OP that team work is fun and makes for a smoother run. My Cleric toon is optimized for healing. She can't take down the end bosses. She needs the melees for that. She is perfectly willing to "let her blue bar be their red bars" because their red bars are also her red bar. After all, if all the dps'ers die, the monster is coming after the one who is left, the healer Cleric. So, my Cleric has no problems throwing heals and letting the melees do the beat down on the boss.
    here's the thing . . . whose divine - ANY divine - is good at taking out 300k HP red-names? When on my divine at this point I'd really like a heavy hitter in the group.

  10. #10
    Community Member DeKalbSun's Avatar
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    I consistantly put up lfm's with healer wanted or trapper needed and usually don't have to wait to long for a response. I think a lot of people still
    enjoy the teamwork aspect of this game, and when you post for the skills they have, those players enjoy showing their skills off and being
    a part of the group.
    Mangas Geronimo (Paladin) Grocery Baggs (Ranger) Naiche Geronimo (Cleric)

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  11. #11
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    I am glad you and your son had a good time in your static group. It's fun to see parents playing with their children in a rewarding gaming enviroment.

    Beyond that, I do not see any point you are trying to make with this. Anyway, and again, I am glad to see you have a fun relationship with your child or children.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I am glad you and your son had a good time in your static group. It's fun to see parents playing with their children in a rewarding gaming enviroment.

    Beyond that, I do not see any point you are trying to make with this. Anyway, and again, I am glad to see you have a fun relationship with your child or children.

    I dunno, I think I was pretty clear what my point was
    Quote Originally Posted by SSFWEl View Post
    but my point is, we seem to have lost the interdependancey we used to have. And I want it back

    Regarding being shocked. Yea I was too. I have gotten used to hearing evokers are useless now, go self sufficient DPS, go Forc, whatever.
    ~~ Adrunil - Rogue. Halfling, big guy you can't miss him. ~~
    ~~ Adrunel - Monkcher. (Moncher?) ~~
    Robodoc - FvS Evoker-Healer. Post 19: Ended up LRing into 13/7 forc
    Orien server.

  13. #13
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSFWEl View Post
    Regarding being shocked. Yea I was too. I have gotten used to hearing evokers are useless now, go self sufficient DPS, go Forc, whatever.
    not anymore. The DC inflation looks to have made them viable again.

    Optimal? No. Viable? yes.

  14. #14
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    Increased mob density is a huge drawback now for melees alone. My sorc can still energy burst/dragon breath through EH w/o much slowing down if I want to solo, but I enjoy grouping by default.

    I don't know anyone who cares about 10% xp in Epic levels. LFMs in that range tend to be more about who's willing to lead or not since failure is nearly impossible outside of EE.

  15. #15
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSFWEl View Post
    Regarding being shocked. Yea I was too. I have gotten used to hearing evokers are useless now, go self sufficient DPS, go Forc, whatever.
    "Numbers" for performing well in EH are utterly trivial, good 15 lower than EE, of course any DC caster is Demigod in EH.
    Very few people get 65 necro on their wizzies, and still have to use debuffs.
    Even less divines are able to get 66+ evo. And except symbol of death kiting, no mass debuffing. Or use energy drain+destro ( necro which is way lower than evo ) for single target. In game where monks are pushing 80 on Stun fists.

    My faith will not be shaken
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  16. #16
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSFWEl View Post
    my point is, we seem to have lost the interdependancey we used to have. And I want it back
    Oh was this your point?

    Ok that's nice, you had cute fun day playing with your son in a sweet little static group running a quest and made you all nostalgic and forgetful of all the drama and frustration that forced interdependence caused this game for years on end.

    Look, I'm glad you and your son had a fun quest together, and you got to play his hero by keeping him alive, and you could see how happy he was to enjoy that moment with you. Yah, I totally understand that, I used to play with my cousins a while back before they moved on to other games.

    But, NO, look, wake up, that era and time was done a while ago, caused by the ****storm that was the whole "Divines are not healers" movement, and to be blunt, while maybe you had a grand day in your family static group with your son that perhaps is growing up to fast and this was a moment to reconnect with him. But to use that to try to force the game to go back to "needing a healer", all i can say is thankfully that train left the station. I would hate going back to needing a healer, that era sucked, self sufficiency made it so we can play with who we want, when we want, doing the quests we want as the classes we want. The days of that Drama over forced dependency are gone, and thankfully so.

    Yah, great way to ruin what could have been a great story about You and your son having a grand day, but the last thing anyone in this game needs to go back to the dark ages of needing a healer to do quests.

  17. #17
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Very few people get 65 necro on their wizzies, and still have to use debuffs.
    66 is what a Human will get at 28 with a +5 item and the other right gear. And yes, you'll still have to prep targets but most of the prepping is dirt cheap these days.

    And don't be a one-trick pony wizards, be in Draconic as much as possible and get your enchant as high as you can. Mass-hold + endergy burst + Dragon breath is friggin awesome.

    Remember that EE "Lines of Supply" we did where you weren't even able to charge your blitz?

    EDIT: DOH! Sorry, though you were talking about arcanes and not divines.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 09-10-2013 at 12:41 PM.

  18. #18
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Even less divines are able to get 66+ evo. And except symbol of death kiting, no mass debuffing. Or use energy drain+destro ( necro which is way lower than evo ) for single target. In game where monks are pushing 80 on Stun fists.

    My faith will not be shaken
    I believe the ubberest of the FvS/Clerics are hitting 70 Evocation DC

    And monks are pushing 75 QP DCs, that's just silly.

  19. #19
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    Now we just need someone to exclaim how their cleric would solo the quest in half (ha! As if! More like one tenth! One twentieth?) of the time it takes you to find a babysitter to kiss your boo-boos away, and how everyone in the mentioned story are hopelessly bad players who should just delete their characters; then the thread will be complete.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery Bonulino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    ...Ok that's nice, you had cute fun day playing with your son in a sweet little static group running a quest and made you all nostalgic and forgetful of all the drama and frustration that forced interdependence caused this game for years on end.
    <snip>
    Lighten up a bit. Some of us love the team play thing and don't get bent out of shape by fulfilling a specific role in the party. And, BTW, there are Clerics who enjoy the role of healers. Just because you don't like the interdependence of a team, doesn't mean you have to ridicule those who do.
    Snarly Dwarf Chick With A Great Axe

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