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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    PS I guess he's getting the tier 3 and 4 WIS enhancements from that tree too assuming it has WIS and not STR/CON but still that's 18AP's for 5%
    Well, that cannot be since he has said he wasted 40 AP to get one enhancement. Ergo, he has not or cannot select wisdom enhancements at tiers 3 and 4.
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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Still missing the point by trying to talk about some specific build or capstone. They are all the same way.

    The point is that ANY capstone NOW requires 40 points of prerequisites only from one specific tree where they previously had no specific requirements at all. And many abilities that were part of prestige enhancements that previously had only 10 or 15 points worth of prerequisites now have 30 points of prerequisites (while doing less). We had much more flexibility on how to spend our Action Points in the old system.

    Yeah, lots of people like the fact that some things got made more powerful. But that doesn't change the fact that we're now straight-jacketed only into these cookie-cutter trees instead of being able to mix and match all of our class enhancements like we could before.
    The word "capstone" says, at least to me, that there has been a progression, and this is the ultimate thing that happens at the end of it. You don't get into Amway and just start off at the Emerald level. You don't choose the presidency of the United States as your entry point into politics. Why would these capstones be any different?

  3. #143
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Well, you do realize the net effect would be they would simply return to requiring the much higher AP expenditures in order to take the enhancements, right?
    Well, yeah, I see that as a very likely possibility. But then, at least we'd be able to pick and choose the enhancements we want to spend those required AP on, instead of having to buy stuff from the same tree that we don't want in order to get at what we do want.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  4. #144
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    There is also the benefit that a lot of stuff is much cheaper now that it were before. Haste Boost IV required 10 levels of a haste boost class (Fighter or Rogue) and 10 AP. Now you can get it with 1 or 2 levels of that class, and only for 3 or 6 APs (depends on tree).

    Same goes for racial weaponry (+2 hit/damage for 6 AP, now linear progression up to +4 hit/damage for 8 AP).

    Same goes for skill improvements (Used to be 1 AP per skill. Now is 1 AP for a group of skills).

    Same goes for Improved Metas (Used to be 12 AP for three tiers. Now is 6 AP)

    Same goes for... you know what? A lot of stuff is cheaper than it used to be.
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  5. #145
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Still missing the point by trying to talk about some specific build or capstone. They are all the same way.

    The point is that ANY capstone NOW requires 40 points of prerequisites only from one specific tree where they previously had no specific requirements at all. And many abilities that were part of prestige enhancements that previously had only 10 or 15 points worth of prerequisites now have 30 points of prerequisites (while doing less). We had much more flexibility on how to spend our Action Points in the old system.
    Yes, capstones require 40 points in a tree. That's why there are capstones for each one, so you can focus on the abilities that tree gives you, and get a capstone related to that prestige line. If you don't want the abilities from a prestige tree, don't buy it. If you're so adamant about "MUST HAVE THAT SPECIFIC CAPSTONE!", but don't want to use ANY of the other abilities, I don't know what to tell you. That seems like a build that was designed specifically to frustrate yourself and give you something to complain about.

    Classes used to only have a single capstone before, with just a couple of classes having more than one (rogue and druid). Now we've been given more choices, more options, and more flexibility with how to build characters and spend points on them (since we can apply points to ALL the prestige lines, instead of being locked into just one), and you call this LESS flexibility?

    Yeah, lots of people like the fact that some things got made more powerful. But that doesn't change the fact that we're now straight-jacketed only into these cookie-cutter trees instead of being able to mix and match all of our class enhancements like we could before.
    Bullpuckey. Honestly, I have to agree, you seem to be trolling at this point. The fact you insist that we have less flexibility now and are "straight-jacketed into cookie-cutter trees" is just ridiculous. I can spend my points wherever I want, among three different trees PLUS a racial tree. I'm in no way locked into any given setup.

    Unless, of course, I get a particular capstone locked into my brain and refuse to adapt my build to the new system...

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Currently this is correct, though his complaint that you "can't put points in one tree without massive penalties to another" is false. You don't HAVE to take the core abilities at the bottom (the ones that give you extra spellpower to that element, but have corresponding penalties to the other).

    Ranting that the pass has "destroyed customization" is silly. Additionally, the claim that "unless you're on your 4th or 5th past life you don't understand how to build a character?" What? I've never TR'd at all, and I know perfectly well how to build characters, thanks.

    The OP is just unhappy, and ranting. The new enhancement system is awesome, in my opinion. It gives TONS of options for characters -- sorcerer is just the one class that got limitations imposed, due to the savant PRcs. And of course, that's apparently the only character he wants to play.
    AGAIN another person who does not know what he's talking about, you just need to look,, pick any of the Sorc (Savant) trees,, try to use any single ability from it, you cannot , not without taking Savant 1, which gives you -10 to the opposing element and -1 to dc's from that element, go read man. Better yet,, try to get good at all elements like I have been for 7 lives,, you cannot , its impossible. You are either very good at 1 or 2 elements and have no bonus's for 2 more, and completely suck horribly on the last , or you can be decent but not good at 3 elements and suck real bad on all others,, you cannot , no matter what, be competent in all elements, without favor to any given one, as I always have been. And to those who think sorcs are all about elements, I never found that to be true, in EE specifically , only necro and enchantment mattered to me, but who cares,, after trying to play my bard, pally , and sorc yesterday and today, I once again am convinced that its been sold out. This is ddo for dummies, the game is too easy, and getting easier all the time, I don't see any point in playing, everything just dies and nothing is a challenge so have fun you forum winers who think your all that. I don't play games for it to be easy, I want a challenge, and ddo is pathetically easy. I am one of those weekend players from years past who never posted , never used wiki except for green steel (because if you have to research a game to do well, you really need to stop playing games), and now its GG, this version of ddo sucks and is for kids with no knowledge of what was available previously. Now you have maybe half the customization available to you, all packaged neatly so you can comprehend it and make yourself uber. There is not 50% the versatility there once was. For better or worse, at least there was something to play with. Now everyone is a specialist and the mobs are trash, all my late night gamer friends have quit as I have since this patch. Sadly the loudest voices are the whiny crybabies that like everything being easy, well take the trash you have created and endorse, may your wining grant you easy victory in your pathetic fantasy. The truly good players don't spend their lives on forums, they just move on. This game needs room for more creativity , not more prestige class's and presto uber builds. And some of the forums community really need to go out and get some sunlight, your brain is addled. DDO is now a waste of life, there is nothing left to learn, its like a TV dinner. No longer unique and challenging.
    PS, I was wrong,, I have played for over 6 years , until this change, not 4, but ddo is just the same ol same ol now,, .

  7. #147
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    <rant deleted>
    Wow, someone missed naptime I think...

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    It seems to me, that SirValentine's problem with the trees, and a lot of other peoples' problems with the trees, could be solved, and a whole lot of build variety could be added to the game, if the Devs would just do one simple thing and change the AP requirements from "AP spent in tree" to "AP spent total".
    Yeah, we said to the devs that way back in the enhancement alpha.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    You can claim that level 12 and 18 prestige enhancements had lower AP-expenditure requirements, but this is simply untrue. While there may have been only 10 or 15 APs spent that were directly required to obtain prerequisites required for the prestige enhancement, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that you could not spend *only* those 10 or 15 AP and still get the prestige enhancement. Now, if you could have spent only 10 or 15 AP to get the level 12 prestige enhancement, then I would agree the requirements for the enhancements now are greatly increased. However, this was not the case. You had to spend 42 or 44 AP to get the level 12 prestige enhancement, of which 10 or 15 were directly required by relevant prerequisites.

    Likewise, you cannot truthfully claim there were no specific requirements at all before because there were. The enhancements explicitly stated you had to spend a certain number of AP before you could purchase them
    Again, missing the point. You could spend those other points on ANY other class or race enhancement you wanted, not just in one restricted "tree". It was merely level-gating, not "force you to hyper-specialize in one area" gating. The prerequisites are much more restrictive now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    As far as your cleric goes, while I have not seen the Warpriest prestige, I would say that if you've got nothing else in Warpriest you like, then why not focus on a tree you do like and take that capstone since they all offer +2 wisdom?
    My Cleric is currently a FvS, and there is no other capstone with a +2 Wisdom.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    ...then, at least we'd be able to pick and choose the enhancements we want to spend those required AP on, instead of having to buy stuff from the same tree that we don't want in order to get at what we do want.
    That, exactly.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    So yes the answer is they are voluntarily gimping themselves to improve a DC on a casting class that only really sports implosion, greater command and Destruction as useful DC based spells.
    I hate to be one of those "you're doing it wrong" guys, so I'll just say, "I'm doing it differently".

  12. #152
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    I can understand the complaints about capstones. I don't think I'd ever spend the full 40 points in one tree to get a capstone, since it's simply too costly. In the old system I'd always pick it up since it was just 2 AP. Other than the requirement for capstones there are no complaints from me. The enhancement pass has been a very pleasant change imo.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    you cannot , no matter what, be competent in all elements, without favor to any given one, as I always have been.
    Hey welcome back, angry-shouty-doesn't-know-what-he's-talking-about-but-since-when-has-that-ever-stopped-him guy!

    I'm sorry that you can no longer be mediocre at everything. I hate to break the news to you but, I don't think you've been doing sorc properly. Once you understand this, you'll understand why the class designers didn't have you in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    And to those who think sorcs are all about elements, I never found that to be true, in EE specifically , only necro and enchantment mattered to me
    See, now this is where you are showing just how ignorant you are about both the old enhancements and the new enhancements. There is nothing less about the new enhancements to support necro and enchantment sorcs than there was in the old enhancement. If you wanted to try something really whacky and creative you could try something completely out-the-box thinking and maybe try ... wizard? I know, I know. You've already thrown your toys out the pram and are sitting in a corner sulking like a child, and you'll never play this game again because the designers have willfully engineered their new systems to spite you. But I can only offer the suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    but who cares,, after trying to play my bard, pally , and sorc yesterday and today, I once again am convinced that its been sold out.
    Have a hug, man. I can quite easily picture you struggling to play your classes. If you hadn't quit already we could maybe have had a fund-raiser in the Phoenix Tavern to try and get you some platinum to pay for a trainer or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    This is ddo for dummies, the game is too easy, and getting easier all the time, I don't see any point in playing, everything just dies and nothing is a challenge so have fun you forum winers who think your all that. I don't play games for it to be easy, I want a challenge, and ddo is pathetically easy. I am one of those weekend players from years past who never posted , never used wiki except for green steel (because if you have to research a game to do well, you really need to stop playing games), and now its GG, this version of ddo sucks and is for kids with no knowledge of what was available previously.
    This is more enlightening. You want challenge, but don't like having penalties to opposing elements or having to make choices. Maybe you could be uber-challenged and be the ronin sorcerer who takes down mobs with the Club of the Holy Flame, never lowering themselves to use that easy button of a blue bar. Sounds awesome! Start a blog! Tell us how you get on! Just learn how to use punctuation, paragraphs and stuff first! Go you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    Now you have maybe half the customization available to you, all packaged neatly so you can comprehend it and make yourself uber.
    Dang and blast those fiends for making something easier to understand! It's not fun unless it's difficult to understand things is the message I'm getting from you loud and clear, man. I hear you even if nobody else does. So the less you understand the happier you are! Got it! Man, you must be ecstatic about 99% of the time. Good for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    There is not 50% the versatility there once was. For better or worse, at least there was something to play with. Now everyone is a specialist and the mobs are trash, all my late night gamer friends have quit as I have since this patch.
    You'll be missed. But your legend will live on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    Sadly the loudest voices are the whiny crybabies that like everything being easy, well take the trash you have created and endorse, may your wining grant you easy victory in your pathetic fantasy. The truly good players don't spend their lives on forums, they just move on.
    I'm so glad you came back to the forums to post this. I can honestly say that I've never heard anybody cry louder on the forums than you have. You win that one, no contest. And now you've moved on, you must be a truly good player, unlike all of those other losers who have adapted to the changes. Adapt and die! Stand still and prosper! We should get banners made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    This game needs room for more creativity , not more prestige class's and presto uber builds. And some of the forums community really need to go out and get some sunlight, your brain is addled. DDO is now a waste of life, there is nothing left to learn, its like a TV dinner. No longer unique and challenging.
    Ah, the nostalgia of those days when TV dinners were once unique and challenging. The good old days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    PS, I was wrong,, I have played for over 6 years , until this change, not 4, but ddo is just the same ol same ol now,, .
    Hmmm, only 6 years. And only occasionally at weekend. That does explain why it's taken you so long to get to grips with how the game works. I'm sorry you never got a chance to learn what the old sorcerer savant stuff was about before they changed it. And even though you'll never be back and the game hates you, there's still a vibrant and supportive forum community who eagerly await your next post!

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    This is ddo for dummies, the game is too easy, and getting easier all the time, I don't see any point in playing, everything just dies and nothing is a challenge so have fun you forum winers who think your all that. I don't play games for it to be easy, I want a challenge, and ddo is pathetically easy.
    OK. The game may have been harder in the past. I can take that as a valid position...

    I am one of those weekend players from years past who never posted , never used wiki except for green steel (because if you have to research a game to do well, you really need to stop playing games), and now its GG, this version of ddo sucks and is for kids with no knowledge of what was available previously. ...snip... DDO is now a waste of life, there is nothing left to learn, its like a TV dinner. No longer unique and challenging.
    PS, I was wrong,, I have played for over 6 years , until this change, not 4, but ddo is just the same ol same ol now,, .
    ...right up until the bolded and underlined parts. If the game is simple enough not to require a wiki where you can learn about character building, gear, and other stuff, then there would have been nothing left to learn years ago. This all points to the probability you're just trolling, too. Bye! Hope you enjoy the next game you choose to play.
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  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I hate to be one of those "you're doing it wrong" guys, so I'll just say, "I'm doing it differently".
    Sorry, but no. If you are spending 40 AP on enhancements you consider junk to get one enhancement, then you're doing it wrong - NOT differently.
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  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Sorry, but no. If you are spending 40 AP on enhancements you consider junk to get one enhancement, then you're doing it wrong - NOT differently.
    If you don't even know what spells are useful for my class, I have no interest in whether YOU think I'm doing it wrong.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If you don't even know what spells are useful for my class, I have no interest in whether YOU think I'm doing it wrong.
    lol. Well, the thing is that my statement is a statement of fact - not opinion. The fact is that if you are "wasting" 40 AP to get one enhancement, then you are doing it wrong because there are plenty of other ways to spend that AP that would result in a more effective and more fun character.
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  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Well, the thing is that my statement is a statement of fact - not opinion. The fact is that if you are "wasting" 40 AP to get one enhancement, then you are doing it wrong because there are plenty of other ways to spend that AP that would result in a more effective and more fun character.
    Having less effective abilities is a more effective character? You live in a strange world. That's like saying a race car is more effective if you put in a cheaper and weaker engine in, and use the money "saved" by getting fancy chrome trim and a custom paint job.

    As for fun, maybe you enjoy deliberately gimping your abilities so they work less well, but that would not be more fun for me. Fun is inherently subjective, so it's purely a matter of opinion.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    I hate to kick a dead horse, but...

    It seems to me, that SirValentine's problem with the trees, and a lot of other peoples' problems with the trees, could be solved, and a whole lot of build variety could be added to the game, if the Devs would just do one simple thing and change the AP requirements from "AP spent in tree" to "AP spent total".
    I am more of a fan of moving the actual PrE stuff down to the core line and keeping that points spent in tree and making the stuff actually in the trees either points spent or points spent in class trees. Of course this would mean they would have to fold the PrEs back together rather than leaving them in a dozen or so different sub packages. But at least that would open up the general class enhancements.

    Another change I would like to see is less use of arrows just to get players to get poor enhancements, or at the very least get rid of the need for more than one rank in a prerequisite regardless how many are taken in the wanted ability. It's really little more than a way to disguise that the good enhancements actually cost more than the listed price by throwing in something not even worth a single AP for full ranks.

  20. #160
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Hey welcome back, angry-shouty-doesn't-know-what-he's-talking-about-but-since-when-has-that-ever-stopped-him guy!

    I'm sorry that you can no longer be mediocre at everything. I hate to break the news to you but, I don't think you've been doing sorc properly. Once you understand this, you'll understand why the class designers didn't have you in mind.



    See, now this is where you are showing just how ignorant you are about both the old enhancements and the new enhancements. There is nothing less about the new enhancements to support necro and enchantment sorcs than there was in the old enhancement. If you wanted to try something really whacky and creative you could try something completely out-the-box thinking and maybe try ... wizard? I know, I know. You've already thrown your toys out the pram and are sitting in a corner sulking like a child, and you'll never play this game again because the designers have willfully engineered their new systems to spite you. But I can only offer the suggestion.



    Have a hug, man. I can quite easily picture you struggling to play your classes. If you hadn't quit already we could maybe have had a fund-raiser in the Phoenix Tavern to try and get you some platinum to pay for a trainer or something.



    This is more enlightening. You want challenge, but don't like having penalties to opposing elements or having to make choices. Maybe you could be uber-challenged and be the ronin sorcerer who takes down mobs with the Club of the Holy Flame, never lowering themselves to use that easy button of a blue bar. Sounds awesome! Start a blog! Tell us how you get on! Just learn how to use punctuation, paragraphs and stuff first! Go you!



    Dang and blast those fiends for making something easier to understand! It's not fun unless it's difficult to understand things is the message I'm getting from you loud and clear, man. I hear you even if nobody else does. So the less you understand the happier you are! Got it! Man, you must be ecstatic about 99% of the time. Good for you.



    You'll be missed. But your legend will live on.



    I'm so glad you came back to the forums to post this. I can honestly say that I've never heard anybody cry louder on the forums than you have. You win that one, no contest. And now you've moved on, you must be a truly good player, unlike all of those other losers who have adapted to the changes. Adapt and die! Stand still and prosper! We should get banners made.



    Ah, the nostalgia of those days when TV dinners were once unique and challenging. The good old days.



    Hmmm, only 6 years. And only occasionally at weekend. That does explain why it's taken you so long to get to grips with how the game works. I'm sorry you never got a chance to learn what the old sorcerer savant stuff was about before they changed it. And even though you'll never be back and the game hates you, there's still a vibrant and supportive forum community who eagerly await your next post!
    ^I like this guy. This guy's hilarious.

    And I don't mean that sarcastically, Deadlock. Your replies to the Dangerousda guy were epic sarcastic comedy. Think I might have hurt myself laughing. Definitely one of the funniest things I've read in quite a while. So good it deserves a +1. Unfortunately, I gotta "spread some reputation around" first I guess. Yours will be coming Soon(tm).
    Last edited by Philibusta; 09-13-2013 at 06:39 AM.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

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