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  1. #161
    Community Member hucka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Having less effective abilities is a more effective character? You live in a strange world. That's like saying a race car is more effective if you put in a cheaper and weaker engine in, and use the money "saved" by getting fancy chrome trim and a custom paint job.

    As for fun, maybe you enjoy deliberately gimping your abilities so they work less well, but that would not be more fun for me. Fun is inherently subjective, so it's purely a matter of opinion.
    maybe i missed something but since you only want the capstone...why even invest in the tree?
    there are other trees with capstones too

  2. #162
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Having less effective abilities is a more effective character? You live in a strange world. That's like saying a race car is more effective if you put in a cheaper and weaker engine in, and use the money "saved" by getting fancy chrome trim and a custom paint job.
    If I understood it correctly, the trade off you guys are talking about is: 40 useless AP to get 1 higher DC vs 40 useful AP and keeping the same DC. I'd say most people prefer to spend 40 AP on useful things and skip the one DC.

  3. #163
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    If I understood it correctly, the trade off you guys are talking about is: 40 useless AP to get 1 higher DC vs 40 useful AP and keeping the same DC. I'd say most people prefer to spend 40 AP on useful things and skip the one DC.
    Exactly this, but I doubt SirValentine will let logic get in the way of a good rant.
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Bullpuckey. Honestly, I have to agree, you seem to be trolling at this point. The fact you insist that we have less flexibility now and are "straight-jacketed into cookie-cutter trees" is just ridiculous. I can spend my points wherever I want, among three different trees PLUS a racial tree. I'm in no way locked into any given setup.
    Not exactly as you have to abide by where things are in the trees. One of the bigger disappointments for me was the position of the Ranger "Favored Damage" Enhancement in tier 4 of the Deepwood Stalker tree. It used to be a go to enhancement for any ranger I had. Now it's pretty much DS only due to the points spent in tree requirement being so high. Really anything above tier one becomes suspect as to whether it's worth it unless you are spending the requisite number of points in that tree anyway.

  5. #165
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Not exactly as you have to abide by where things are in the trees. One of the bigger disappointments for me was the position of the Ranger "Favored Damage" Enhancement in tier 4 of the Deepwood Stalker tree. It used to be a go to enhancement for any ranger I had. Now it's pretty much DS only due to the points spent in tree requirement being so high. Really anything above tier one becomes suspect as to whether it's worth it unless you are spending the requisite number of points in that tree anyway.
    I think the problem is more of the kind that you want enhancement X, and focus on that to the exclusion of everything else. That way everything below it seems a waste. (Oh, and its a passive you, not you specifically)
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  6. #166
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Not exactly as you have to abide by where things are in the trees. One of the bigger disappointments for me was the position of the Ranger "Favored Damage" Enhancement in tier 4 of the Deepwood Stalker tree. It used to be a go to enhancement for any ranger I had. Now it's pretty much DS only due to the points spent in tree requirement being so high. Really anything above tier one becomes suspect as to whether it's worth it unless you are spending the requisite number of points in that tree anyway.
    Well, I will agree with that as regards rangers. I have a 25 ranger who no longer has this enhancement because of the cost. For me, anything tier 3 or 4 gets dicey as to whether I will find things I want in order to fill the AP spend requirements to reach it. If I cannot find things I want and will use, then I forgo the enhancement I want. There are plenty of things I want from other trees such that I cannot justify spending the AP on enhancements that otherwise do not really benefit my character.

    edit: On the other hand, my ranger doesn't really need the favored damage enhancement anymore, either.
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  7. #167
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    If I understood it correctly, the trade off you guys are talking about is: 40 useless AP to get 1 higher DC vs 40 useful AP and keeping the same DC. I'd say most people prefer to spend 40 AP on useful things and skip the one DC.
    Might as well finish the car analogy. Suppose you have a budget of $100,000 for your car. You buy an engine for $50,000. I buy a cheap engine but invest the rest of my $50,000 into nitro boost, tires, suspension, brakes etc. Which car will be faster? I don't know... it could be either. My car will probably be better at accelerating, breaking, and it drives more smoothly on bad roads. Your car will probably have a higher top speed.

  8. #168
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Might as well finish the car analogy. Suppose you have a budget of $100,000 for your car. You buy an engine for $50,000. I buy a cheap engine but invest the rest of my $50,000 into nitro boost, tires, suspension, brakes etc. Which car will be faster? I don't know... it could be either. My car will probably be better at accelerating, breaking, and it drives more smoothly on bad roads. Your car will probably have a higher top speed.
    The Internet proves once again that no discussion is complete without a car analogy or two.
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    The Internet proves once again that no discussion is complete without a car analogy or two.
    If the cars were being raced by Rommell and Hitler then we'd have the full set.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    If I understood it correctly, the trade off you guys are talking about is: 40 useless AP to get 1 higher DC vs 40 useful AP and keeping the same DC. I'd say most people prefer to spend 40 AP on useful things and skip the one DC.
    Don't forget that Divine Disciple can add +1 Necro or Evocation DC for 22 AP (Tier 4), and scaling up that tree gives you a good bunch of spell power/crit. It is more cost-efficiency than spending 40 AP on warpriest for 1 DC.
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  11. #171
    Community Member kmoustakas's Avatar
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    I hear what you say about enhancements but I totally disagree. For my two main toons, one being a human ranger and the other a human cleric, the new trees are a huge upgrade to my abilities on both toons. My ranger especially feels as if he's 3-4 times stronger. I started him as a tempest, switched to aa to see the deadly arrows and right now I'm on sniper which I think is the best all around option.

    As for my cleric, suddenly I need to get all the enhancements I wanted to get before and couldn't!

    My secondary toons, a dwarf barbarian and a drow elf bard I got confused in their trees and didn't pay too much thought to them. Actually, the dwarf enhancements are beyond awesome, it was the barbarian enhancements I didn't understand much but I'm certain I will once I put more thought into them.

  12. #172
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoustakas View Post
    I hear what you say about enhancements but I totally disagree. For my two main toons, one being a human ranger and the other a human cleric, the new trees are a huge upgrade to my abilities on both toons. My ranger especially feels as if he's 3-4 times stronger. I started him as a tempest, switched to aa to see the deadly arrows and right now I'm on sniper which I think is the best all around option.

    As for my cleric, suddenly I need to get all the enhancements I wanted to get before and couldn't!

    My secondary toons, a dwarf barbarian and a drow elf bard I got confused in their trees and didn't pay too much thought to them. Actually, the dwarf enhancements are beyond awesome, it was the barbarian enhancements I didn't understand much but I'm certain I will once I put more thought into them.
    The only thing I've run into that disppointed me so far was my elven bard/arcane archer. Prior to the update, I was a full arcane archer and full spellsinger. Can't really do that anymore. After poking around at the trees for a bit, I gave up on arcane archery, reincarnated to adjust my stats and feats, and went TWF. And damn, she's TONS of fun now. Full spellsinger, almost full warchanter, with a dash of tempest and deepwoods sniper. I like her a lot more now!

  13. #173
    Community Member kmoustakas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    The only thing I've run into that disppointed me so far was my elven bard/arcane archer. Prior to the update, I was a full arcane archer and full spellsinger. Can't really do that anymore. After poking around at the trees for a bit, I gave up on arcane archery, reincarnated to adjust my stats and feats, and went TWF. And damn, she's TONS of fun now. Full spellsinger, almost full warchanter, with a dash of tempest and deepwoods sniper. I like her a lot more now!
    Man that animal empathy with a bard's charisma has to be pretty good!

  14. #174
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoustakas View Post
    Man that animal empathy with a bard's charisma has to be pretty good!
    I haven't tried it yet, admittedly, but that might be pretty cool if it works well. I mostly picked it up for the +75 positive spellpower, to make my heals better. Now I'm curious about using wild empathy on some owlbears or griffons out in the storm horns...

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I hate to be one of those "you're doing it wrong" guys, so I'll just say, "I'm doing it differently".
    Differently doesn't imply sensibly, synergistic-ally, complimentary-ally, optimally, or even creatively, or flavorfuly. There's such a thing as doing more DAMAGE to your character, trying to eke out one more spell DC, by throwing away AP's that can be used for spells against mobs that are saving. Such as having some nuking ability AKA Light spell power. Your Divine Punishment damage against bosses for example is worse, and your self sufficiency, meta magic enhancements and survivability.

    For example if you're trying to be a Divine DC and DC number is the be all and end all of making your build the best it can be; Then there are both cheaper and more synergistic ways to do it than to spend 40 AP's in a very non complimentary tree. For starters:

    Splash 3 Cleric (or better yet 20LR into a 17 Cleric 3 FvS) and spend 24 TWENTY FOUR AP's to get the Tier 3 Wisdom from Radiant Servant and Divine Disciple (or heck Warpriest only 12 points in it is better than 42). This also has other synergy including Negative spell power and +6% crits for your Destruction and Implosion* (* if you lr to cleric). Lr'ing to cleric also has the side benefit of giving more Wisdom in your main trees (you have three trees instead of two) and the cleric capstone if you go pure. And in fact the potential to spend 20+ AP's in one tree and get +2 wisdom AND 20+ in the other and get +2 wisom, while also spending 24 in the splash trees for an additional +2 wis.

    You could splash 3 druid and pick up +1 DC's by investing 24 TWENTY FOUR points in the two druid trees for the first tier of Wisdom (12 points spent in each tree). This also has other synergy: "seasonal" spell power includes Positive and light, there's 3% dodge and there's 6% worth of Light, Fire and positive spell lore.

    Now I know what you're going to say (well until I posted this), "I am pure FvS I can't plash 3 levels and still have implosion": remember that part where I listed the three DC based spells you're probably trying to use? Then recall how you responded that we don't even know what spells you are using? Directly implying that the ones I listed aren't the ones you're trying to boost the DC's of? Forums are a bit of a verbal/written chess match aren't they? Well checkmate: if implosion isn't important to you then you can go 16FvS 4 Cleric (or 20 lr to Cleric/) and get 2 more DC than you could with the capstone... if Implosion IS important to you then we do know what spells you're trying to improve.

    If you are interested in optimal divine casting DC's your best bet is Cleric and either a 3 splash or capstone (haven't looked at those), if you're willing to throw away 40 AP's to improve DC's by 5% you certainly should be willing to change from Pure FvS to Cleric/3 splash to improve them by 10% or maybe even 15% and by so doing, make much better use of those 40 AP's into things that are actually useful to your build (such as caster level increases, meta magic enhancers, negative spell power and negative crits for those destruction spells.) both druid and FvS trees have heighten metas unlike Warpriest.

    BTW as a sort of Olive branch; is your DC based FvS on Thelanis? I've run with one a few times who actually manages to implode/destruct EE mobs on an impressive basis, quite an effective toon I have to say.
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-13-2013 at 04:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Don't forget that Divine Disciple can add +1 Necro or Evocation DC for 22 AP (Tier 4), and scaling up that tree gives you a good bunch of spell power/crit. It is more cost-efficiency than spending 40 AP on warpriest for 1 DC.
    It also has wisdom at tier 3 and 4 +1 DC
    Access to Radiant Servants tier 3 and 4 wis +1 DC
    It also has a Capstone* with +2 Wis +1 DC

    *Not to mention gobs of negative lore and spell power, and the negative SLA's and the Arcane Spells Enervation, Necrotic ray and the Druid spell Word of balance... among other things he gets to put in his DC based toolbox.

    So whats that total up to, +3 DC's over FvS AoV+ 40 wasted points in Warpriest?

    If he wants to eke out Divine casting DC's there are much better ways to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  17. #177
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    I just have to add that while the enh pass has been great for many classes/builds it has (maybe inadvertently) really hurt some pure class builds, particularly melee.

    Since they moved most of the good lvl 12/18 core abilities up to the top of the trees for many classes and replaced them with garbage in some cases there is much less reason to stay pure. My pure monk feels pretty blah.. none of the capstones are worth taking and most of the lvl 12/18 abilities suck. The old capstone was nice but now its stuck in a tree I hate. It really pushes you into mutliclassing much more so than before the pass. Everyone says how great monks are, yeah for splashing and maybe palm, but the core abilities really need some help. All the pure melee classes are now uber splash material and not so great staying pure.

    The easiest fix for this would be adding a couple new core abilities in the empty zones at 9 & 15 so they are more evenly distributed: instead of core abilities being lvl 1/3/6/12/18/20 they would be 1/3/6/9/12/15/18/20. I also think they are very front loaded with the best/most powerful/most useful abilities often being granted in the first 6 lvls.. the most powerful/iconic abilities should really be at the higher lvl slots and offer some incentive to stay pure.

    On AP costs: I would rather the individual cost of all abilities double in exchange for all AP requirements being changed to "AP spent in total". I hate the "AP spent in tree" mechanic only because all the general enhancements are stuck in prestige trees where they don't belong.


    I also must register my eternal displeasure at the loss of the void strike line.. the sad replacement offers no solace for those who hate the Henshin tree.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Such as having some nuking ability AKA Light spell power.
    Light spellpower is easy to get, and getting a tiny bit more makes a much smaller difference than an extra point of DC. I'd happily give up 30 spellpower for a point of DC. If that means I'm sitting at 270 instead of 300, before adding on Empower and Maximize, that means, for example a base 200 damage will be 1190 instead of 1250. Lots of times the killing nuke will be vastly more than the mob's remaining HP anyway, and meanwhile Archon, summons, other party members may well be doing damage, too. A little extra damage is useful, but not very. A little extra effectiveness on all-or-nothing spells is vastly more importing.

    Oh, plus there's the issue that some Light damaging abilities have saves for half damage, so a higher DC may well be more damage even with lower spellpower. Not to mention lots of other damaging abilites (Blade Barrier, Cometfall, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Splash 3 Cleric
    <snip>
    You could splash 3 druid
    You're talking up spellpower and supposedly higher DCs, by suggesting I lose caster levels (including those light-damaging spells & abilities), and instantly lose a point of DC from not having 9th level spells, plus the valuable 9th level spells themselves, plus Spell Penetration?

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Lr'ing to cleric also has the side benefit of giving more Wisdom in your main trees (you have three trees instead of two) and the cleric capstone if you go pure. And in fact the potential to spend 20+ AP's in one tree and get +2 wisdom AND 20+ in the other and get +2 wisom, while also spending 24 in the splash trees for an additional +2 wis.
    My final life will be pure Cleric, and, unless they overhaul enhancements again, 41 points in Divine Disciple, 24 in Radiant, 12 in Warpriest, and 3 in Human. But I've already got 3 Cleric past lives, and only one FvS so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Now I know what you're going to say (well until I posted this), "I am pure FvS I can't plash 3 levels and still have implosion": remember that part where I listed the three DC based spells you're probably trying to use? Then recall how you responded that we don't even know what spells you are using? Directly implying that the ones I listed aren't the ones you're trying to boost the DC's of?
    I never implied those were not important or that I didn't care about their DCs. What I was mocking was the absurd idea that those are the ONLY three DC-based spells or abilities I care about. They are all on the list, but the list is quite a bit longer than three.

    Going back and check, yes, I wasn't imaging it. Your exact words were:

    "...only really sports implosion, greater command and Destruction as useful DC based spells".

    Emphasis added to key word "only". You've never heard of Cometfall? Hold Person? Banishment? Dismissal? Soundburst? Undeath to Death? Symbol of Persuasion? Tsunami? Mass Frog?

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    you can go 16FvS 4 Cleric (or 20 lr to Cleric/) and get 2 more DC than you could with the capstone
    You keep talking about splits that don't have 9th level spells and how their DCs are better. Are you sure you know how Heighten Spell works?

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    BTW as a sort of Olive branch; is your DC based FvS on Thelanis? I've run with one a few times who actually manages to implode/destruct EE mobs on an impressive basis, quite an effective toon I have to say.
    I'm on G-Land. But there's a number of effective divine DC casters on G-Land, and though I like to think I'm effective, there are a few others who are even more so.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Might as well finish the car analogy. Suppose you have a budget of $100,000 for your car. You buy an engine for $50,000. I buy a cheap engine but invest the rest of my $50,000 into nitro boost, tires, suspension, brakes etc. Which car will be faster? I don't know... it could be either. My car will probably be better at accelerating, breaking, and it drives more smoothly on bad roads. Your car will probably have a higher top speed.

    I come back to this tread occasionally to see if people are getting it, but I will not play the game,, it sucks being a prestige, and everyone is now forced into prestige lumps for enhancements. (which all have their strengths and inherent weaknesses).

    This is not a "race Car", this was simply the most diverse, most customizable character building game ever on the internet. It is based on Dungeons & Dragons rule set, from 3.5 and beyond. (I was a Dungeon Master for 24 years, and now I am beginning a new campaign with my daughters instead of DDO, so I'm DM again While major rules were broken to put the game into an online format fit for non D&D experts, (such as fireball not hurting your party if they are caught inside it, and all aoe spells hurt ANYONE inside them for one of thousands of examples) the developers still managed to code and apply a staggering amount of the feats, enchantments and skills into the character build. So when people began playing (specially non d&d experts) they took a long time to research builds and actually had no idea how everything works. It takes many years to learn 50% of the options to ALL the classes and their sub class (in pnp dnd). DDO only offered maybe 30-40% of the ones available back in DnD 3.5, but , they did a great job of allowing a person to "FIND THEIR OWN PATH" . Using the "custom" build option in character creation, you had access to all the relative class skills, and all their pre-requisites. DnD experts immediately saw how closely the game followed DnD rules (but made it easier for non DnD player back-grounds)

    This latest overhaul of the enhancements is a SAD duplication of the Rift Tree skill system . People who do not have all the DnD enhancements, minor skill, major skills,, and feats memorized (after 3 decades of pnp ) now see a clear path , that before looked like just so many "worthless" options. This makes them "THINK" they have more options, but they are mistaken. All that has happened is the "most popular" builds have been lumped up into prestige enhancement trees, and the odd ball skills have either been tossed haphazardly in one or the other or discarded all together. I have rebuild all 3 of my TR's after the tree system was introduced, along with all my kids tunes and my alt accounts and tunes. There is not a single class that can choose its own roll any longer. The options available are down to 10 or 20% of the available character customization that should be here, and was here not long ago.
    Sorry to those of you who just think you know all about DnD or DDO (ignorance is bliss) and now see your clear path; that just means you know nothing about DnD and the options you HAD that are now GONE. I'm not a 24-7 player of 21 past lives, because real life is better than even the old ddo system (most the time), but I do have many TR's, one (my favorite ) is on his 7th life. But sadly, after over 6 years of supporting DDO, he may never go farther as I have no desire to fit into this little mold some of you now find so enabling. Its DDO for dummies, welcome to reality, they spelled the most popular builds out for you, who could not find a good build on your own. But in so doing, all the custom options, weapon preferences, odd enhancement builds, and strange builds are gone. If you don't see that , you just don't know what you had (lack of knowledge) and probably copied other peoples builds off Wiki previously (and now come here comically boasting about it, as if being that clueless is a good thing). Now you don't have to, its "simplified " for you. Maybe this is good for some "non DnD people, but it sure would be nice to see the "original" class enhancements appear in a new "Base Class" tree. So more experienced players can go custom like we used to. I'd let my die hard friends of DDO know its fixed and to come back if that happened, there must be a way. And all the main Class's need it, not just Sorc.

    This thread has evolved and enlightened me .(mostly to the fact that there are many multi lifers who have no clue about core DnD rules,, which is what this game was/is) Its great that new people can jump right in on a pre-generated path, even if they "think" they are building custom; maybe good for business, and help keep the game evolving and paid for. Some people need structure and lack the back ground and general knowledge of the Core rules that others may have. But its very sad to see a persons fantasy, one they paid for in lots of real money and time, just get wiped off the map. This game offered my flavor and style of game play to my ddo fantasy world, it was all there for me to tinker with. It brought my kids and me lots of laughs and screams. It was OUR fantasy character build. And the new system killed it. You cannot disagree with my fantasy, there is no argument that puts you in my living room with my kids and in my head. Fact is, it was all here, everything we needed, now its gone. I'd gladly re-activate mine and my kids accounts if you put them back please. You know its funny, even my 11 year old noticed right away that she had no choice to be what she wanted, funny how information and education enlightens people. Also funny how none of the best players I ever ran with bother posting. Most have quit. Only you know the real numbers Turbine. The servers look real dead to me compared to the past, pre-enhancement tree. but maybe its because most my friends are now gone. If you want the die hard creative genius , money spending , ddo enthusiast back, (major geeks) try putting back everything you lumped together or discarded, into a "general class" tree. Word will spread, and people like me can make your prestige class's look weak once again. Anyone who has ever ran with me knows the power of a good custom build.
    Last edited by Daangerousda; 09-18-2013 at 11:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daangerousda View Post
    There is not a single class that can choose its own roll any longer. The options available are down to 10 or 20% of the available character customization that should be here, and was here not long ago.
    Prove it. You claim to know so much about D&D and DDO. What are these 80-90% of build options that used to be possible that are no longer possible that used to be? They don't even need to be full builds, just simply class splits and build goals that were available before the enhancement pass and are no longer possible.

    And before you even say it, things like "Non-Savant Sorcerer" don't count; that's not an actual build. There is no such thing as a "Non-Savant" spell that deals "Non-Savant" damage that a Sorcerer can specialize in. You can build an Acid-based Sorcerer, or a Force-based Sorcerer, or a CON-based Sorcerer, or an undead Sorcerer, or a DC-based Sorcerer, but a lack of something doesn't make a build.

    I eagerly await this list of 80-90% of the game's builds that are no longer possible and will never be posted.

    (mostly to the fact that there are many multi lifers who have no clue about core DnD rules,, which is what this game was/is)
    This game has always only been loosely based on the 3.5 D&D ruleset. A lot of the facets of D&D (like being turn-based, or having most buffing spells be short duration) simply don't work in an MMO setting unless you were to make a literal D&D MMO, which would end up being a glorified P&P game as you'd still need an actual DM to make it work. Additionally, a lot of things from D&D don't work without an active DM present unless you heavily restrict the game, like strict adherence to the d20 system.
    Last edited by Zirun; 09-18-2013 at 11:35 PM.

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