I still think you're underestimating the potential of the new system. Most characters (and this is just the pure ones) will draw from at least two different class trees and probably from a racial tree as well; that's something like 150+ AP to max on characters that only get 80 to spend, so even characters with identical tree choices could end up looking fairly different from one another, particularly as enhancements aren't the only level of customisation.
Let's look at your specific case, which admittedly is one of the most restricted. While it's true that you can't get support for hurling around necromancy effects, while instant nuking with Chain Lightning and dealing damage-over-time with Black Dragon Bolt...you can get support for hurling around necromancy effects, while instant nuking with Delayed Blast Fireball and dealing damage-over-time with Black Dragon Bolt. Or you could nuke with Chain Lightning and DoT with Niac's Biting Cold. Or nuke with Horrid Wilting and DoT with Black Dragon Bolt. And you can do it better than you ever could before, because now you can get savant-style bonuses to two different elements instead of just the one, and get universal spell power from both trees at the same time. They just can't be an opposed pair - that still leaves two elements open for every primary selection. Want to take some force as well? You can get +10 force spell power from the fifth tier of any savant tree, and add it to your accumulated USP. That means you can be strong in two elements, and have some power behind force and negative spells as well. That's four different types of damage, two with caster level boosts - is that really less of a spread than what you had before the pass, where you had no access to any SLAs, no enhancement-based caster level bonuses to anything, and no access to class-based negative spell power at all?
As for your sorcerer necromancy interest, you can do better now there than you could before there, as well. If you were to select a drow character, you can now buy Charisma enhancements from the racial tree instead of being limited to Dexterity only. This means you can achieve higher necromancy DCs in the new system than you'd have had under the old one (and be more different from other drow who have other options). It's even better for Enchantment because you can get an additional +1 to your DCs from Enchantment lore 3/3, and you can choose to learn the Darkfire SLA if you want a non-elemental blast. Alternatively, you can play as a regular elf, forgo the additional Charisma, and get +3 Spell Penetration and 100 SP. Add that plus three to the plus two you can take from having two different savant trees and you've got a total of +5, which (IIRC...) is higher than what you could get under the old system. DCs or Spell PEnetration? That's a viable choice for distinguishing two very similar characters right there. Don't want to be an elf? Fine, go human and take the universal spellpower boost with Charisma action surge and traditionalist spellcaster - that's +10 to universal spellpower at all times, another +20 when you use your action boost, and +1-2 to the DCs of all your spells you cast during any action boost. That's pretty good for the purposes of a generalist, making use of options that are brand-new to the revised system.
I get that you're stuck with one of the most restrictive classes and that the current options might not be attractive to you, but you can still build towards a play style like the one you're describing, and receive benefits to it that simply weren't open to you previously.
While a majority of people are running around screaming like they just put on aftershave for the first time that Sorc's are still OP and why should we give them anything. Varg said they wanted diversity and that it was successful to them from that standpoint. Well, coming from a player standpoint, and my bar of success is probably higher than Turbine's ("We got it out on time, score! And it works, for - the - most part!") diversity is there for melee's. A lot of new synergy between melee classes. And while there are some synergies between casters (sorc/fvs/wiz MM builds) they lag far behind melee's. So in that viewpoint, to me, it's 50% successful - 10% for the bugs = 40% successful in my eyes.
I find that the new enhancement pass improved my damage output, CC capabilities and variation of my EE Shiradi sorc. I went electricity and cold savants - using the electricity SLAs plus MM plus sonic blast. Sonic blast stuns, electric loop stuns, Shiradi nerve venom paralyzes, using those costs 4-6 mana, allowing you to stop entire rooms of creatures, as long as you're willing to dance around to constantly re-aim at the group (total fun, moving around like that - can't stand the Turbine desire to have everyone stand still), using the lightning bolt SLA for single target high damage, and whatever other high damage spells you like to use.
Maximize+empower the SLAs, turn both off for MM and Sonic Blast, turn them on for your other high level damage spells = fantastic CC + great dps output.
I agree with you on this. It seems a bit lazy not having core class trees and PRE's separate.Most classes fare better but the Sorcerer trees are a prime example of the biggest flaw in this system IMO - no general class trees. That seemed to be the main thing everyone agreed on back when they were first asking for feedback about this system last year but that's not the direction they went.. we have general enhancements and capstones tied to prestige lines which can screw over many generalist builds.
It needs to be at least 2 trees. Like a Fire/Ice and Air/Water - taking one locks out the other. If you reduce it to one tree, it would be like what we had before, which was locking out all three PRE's. The new system is more flexible if you're building a savant - you get two savant trees now.Deadlock mentioned adding Acolyte of the Skin could help overcome this but I hope they don't go the route of dumping all the general-ish enhancement into one tree since it could have many cool potential abilities that there might not be room for otherwise. Wizard has this problem atm with Archmage being sort of the "generalist" tree where they really should have added more unique abilities instead. Sorcerers really need 2 more trees to feel complete and fit all the options I think OP is looking for.
For Sorcerer specifically a couple ways to fix the customization problem:
1. Condense Savant down to 1 tree - it's basically just 1 tree anyway that's been copy/pasted a few times. Then add 2 additional completely unique trees to flesh out the Sorc options. Acolyte is already anticipated but there are tons of other potentials as well.
Yeah, that would produce unlimited flexibility and be a quick fix to not having a separate tree. I was going to try taking the devil's advocate here, but I can't fault your logic. No reason a Fire savant wouldn't be also interested in taking Cold and trying to make up for the losses in each tree.2. Allow us to invest in all trees rather than locking us out of the opposing element. Maybe I want to spend points evenly in all 4 trees so that the bonuses & penalties even out - then I may have a more general elementalist. Add the 2 extra trees anyway since we need more flavor than just variants on Savant.
That would be very interesting!No matter what you do with Savant we really need 2 more unique trees for the Sorcerer to feel fleshed out and have a good variety of pure class build options. Yeah there are multi-class options but really every class should have 3 completely uniquely different prestige trees to feel complete. There are clear differences in customization options between classes that have fully fleshed out trees vs those that don't.
Sidenote suggestion: In the far off future maybe Sorcerers should be asked to choose a 'feat' at lvl 1 representing their lineage similar to divine casters selecting a deity. The ancestral lineage could limit and/or open up new enhancement options depending on your background. This could help extend customization options also.
7th life sorc teaching the uber completionist facts of the game, this should be good.
My only question at this time for the op is:
Did you at any time participate in the beta or the lamannia forums during the enhancement pass discussions?
You have two options in this game, be proactive and use the proper means of feedback, or be reactive and rant on the forums afterwards/leave the game. While you won't always get what you want if you didn't even put your voice in when they were listening whose fault is that?
1)Sorc wants to be good with lightning and acid,, OOPS,, sorry,, ddo doesn't allow that. conflicting savant tree. (diversity ?)
2) sorc wants to be good fire and ice, darn,, sorry, impossible,, cannot get any bonus on fire without penalties to ice, and vice vs. conflicting savant.
3) sorc wants to put as much ap into jump as possible, oh,, damn,, sorry only 3 clicks allowed, but use rest of the tree you dont want, since your locked out of another tree anyhow.
4) sorc want efficiency "highten" for fod, WoB, and cod,, oh,, sorry,, completely forgot to add that metamagic to the sorc tree entirely. (versitility?)
5) Sorc wants his tuffness enhancements,, oh,, crud,, they are not here,, completely removed,, seems the feat I took at character lv 1 was a complete waste (there are no toughness enhancements available , which were an integral part of my build and play style)
6) my racial tree is full at lv 8, and I still cannot get a single arcane elemental boost unless I become a savant, which locks out one or more elements as viable weapons , and the entire associated tree.
7) My sorc wants UMD for healing items, oh ****,, there is no longer such a thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
And this was just at a glance, I have instantly spotted dozens of similar items on my FVS, Wizzy, Bard, and Pally.
What has happened is they made it real easy to get some powerful builds even if you don't have a clue what your doing , But if you know what you want, and come here to create the perfect tweek , for your gaming enjoyment, sorry, your out of luck, because there is NO customization, and there are so few combinations that there are dozens like you already on server. Tree systems always end up being unlocked, like on Rift for example. You can spontaneously switch from one set of trees to another. Seems real cool at first, until you realize,, we are all the same, pretty soon people are telling you how to spec your enhancements tree for a certain adventure. This has all been done before, DDO is just late to the table. Within a few weeks you will have all your options memorized and realize you have NO choice. and a few weeks after that your newly rolled tune will show the same pattern. So much has been removed from your options. You cannot be a pure barbarian with sneaking ability any longer. You cannot be a pure fighter with UMD. How can you people not see how limiting this system is now, you have no choice but one or two they have outlined now. You used to be able to do what ever you wanted. Create a complete fail Intel. Barbarian, with UMD, and trap skills that still has cap stone, because he's pure barb. Point is,, you have no options, everyone is exactly the same, especially the pure breeds.
Give it some thought. How is it that your racial tree and first selected class tree are mostly used up by lv 10? And you still cannot deviate from the skills every single player of that class has. This system is so severely flawed and needs much more thought put into customization of skills. Never force people into a mold,, they don't like it, they quickly get bored. I find my Rift character more fun now than my DDO tunes because I can use all the trees at the same time. Is that where this is going? Because that game is dead to.
as for the savants wow look you can do 2 as compared to the old one of one. wow yeah that is sooooo tough. right? last time i checked since we lot a lot of the elemental manipulation % i noticed i got a boost to all of my spells not just a few i spec in. As for a sorc i dont really have more then 2 elements. i like mixing cold with acid. that is just one combo alone. Remember Savants is only one prestige.
So yeah instead of throwing out crazy rude thoughts trying being constructive not like this is **** and needs to be tossed. i like my sorc too bad you dont like yours. btw i have 3 wizard lives 1 fvs 1 sorc. so i know my sorc who used to be a wizard.
Maybe the first tree that should be introduced is the skill tree, separate from all others and for every single class. At least that way , you never really know who might have diplomacy, or bluff in a group,, as it should be.
At this point, I have:
- a 23rd level first life bard
- a 24th level second life monk
- a 16th level second life cleric
- a 20th level first life barbarian
- a 25th level second life ranger
- a 25th level first life druid
- a 16th level third life rogue
- a 16th level second life ranger/monk/rogue (first life was fighter/monk/rogue)
- a 22nd level first life wizard
- a 16th level first life fighter
- a 14th level first life rogue/monk/fighter
- a 20th level first life artificer
TR'ing does not make you a good player. Rather, the breadth of knowledge of classes, quests, monsters, and tactics does. I'd say I am doing pretty well on that.[/QUOTE]
Dream on,, Tr's take much longer to level,, past your second life it takes the xp of 3 lv 20+ to lv a single 3rd life TR,, you might want to check your math man. All your xp combined is but half of what I have on a single character. Not to mention how you fit in the past life feats you choose to use, because you only get 5, each past life feat you choose takes a slot away from your current class. So you actually have no idea how it would impact your build. I have +6 with magic wands , staves and scrolls dc's, +4 on all evocation DC's spell cast, +6 spell penetration, +1 to ALL spell schools cast,, etc,, just from past life feats. You don't have a clue what its like until you make one.
Personally, I can't imagine why anyone would take any skill bonus, except for UMD. Do you really, really need jump to be +3 when you could just use the jump spell?
And your customization of skills is provided at the beginning, when you make your character and each level thereafter - just as customizable as it was before.
I can see your point that sorcs need another tree, and understand that you no longer have the build you want b/c all sorcs are forced to be savants of some flavor. Well at least a new tree is coming. Until then, if you want to play, and no one is forcing you, Clatterfist gave excellent ideas above. Or you could respec to a wiz and take quicken - but I'm with you on not liking playing them. I skipped my wizzie life by using the +20 LR stone.
and your right I am blunt in RL too,, and I'm scary to some people, but I have great passion for the Game since the age of 12 (46 now), with my first basic D&D set. I had hoped DDO would continue the tradition. I'm doing what I can, the only way I know how. You can see only the tone if you choose, but then you miss the message. Die hard gamers don't post on the forums 2.300 times like you. In fact, a lot never post because they don't think it will change anything with all the forums lifers wining in the devs ears all day. And they are probably right. forum people are forum people, gamers are a different breed. Try to hear the content , not the tone. There is no denying facts in RL, and RL people are quitting, and some big spenders too. Is that good for the game? Ignorance and over sensitivity to tone are not helping either. But it got you another post counter,, oh mighty founder. Where I come from , people love conflict and sharp words,, they find it entertaining to read, sparks interest . No offense personally, I assure you.
Hypothesis: Ideas mentioned so far this thread.
1)separate Class skill tree (general, non prestige) to round diversity out.
2)separate skill tree for all class's ( to make attributes unique to the individual and deviate from the constricting mold of some trees)
3) Quotes that admitted the sorc tree is in need of some love (which gives me hope, thanx to those who posted that,, I had missed it)
4)Others pointed out similar redundant and unwanted skill groupings in other class's as well (moral support, I am not alone)
5) Plainly , pure class characters are at a disadvantage in this restricting new tree system (more support)
6)And a whole lot of forum crawlers easily offended and getting emo about my tone
See , something was gained from where I'm sitting anyhow, I feel better, thanx for asking.
TR's are fine to level. You just need more practice. 4.4m xp? Easy. I showed my mate this thread, he had a laugh at you
Oh, right. He's a triple completionist, has played for over 5 years and solo's EE for fun - also a bad player like me.
+6 to wands? Why use wands? Honstly..
+4 to evok? Cool. I have bracers that do that.
Past life feats? My wizard is on his 8th life (and he's not my main), so.. Yeah, TRing is fine. Just do it faster.
It took you 5 lives to learn what a prestige is.
I'm sorry, you're a terrible player based off everything you've said and you rage like a little kid - even worse than I do.
Don't like an update? Bye bye, find a new game.
Last edited by Daangerousda; 09-11-2013 at 12:15 AM.
Wand of blasting, epic Wand of winters Wrath, epic Brimstone Verge, Master Transmuters staff, Alarphon's Staff,, all epic quality and very powerful. Any of this ringin any bells? or are you truly noob? The question is ,, what caster wouldn't use them ,,
dont get your panties in an uproar, I'm here to complain about the game changes , not your or my gaming prowess, sorry for the drifting topic. I've been having a full life the past few years, not so much time for DDO, and FYI,, Savants didn't exist until my 3rd life, they arrived in a patch like this skill tree did, but that patch did not remove my ability choices like this one. Sorry to have effected you so dramatically, it is not my intention. PS completionist is a waste of time :P
Last edited by Daangerousda; 09-11-2013 at 12:44 AM.
1. Taking 5 of those lives to learn there even was a prestige shows me your knowledge already.
2. All you know is Sorc so you may be somewhat knowledgeable about sorcs, but the game in whole you know very little.
3. The pass upgraded and made all my characters better even my sorc who I like being a savant and having a secondary line that am very powerful in.
4. Calm down and read what others say. All agree and me to that another line is needed forcing savant on someone that don't want it is'nt the best idea turbine has had. Dev did post they are first in line for new one soon.
5. Some just don't play one class and like to learn more of the game than just that one class. Doesn't make them noobs. Actually makes them extremely more knowledgeable of classes and game mechanics and what others bring to table with characters and builds.
6. Stop the tunnel vision there is more to the game than sorcs and this pass was awsome for it, maybe not for your sorc, but overall it was a great upgrade to this game and what can do with characters now. So much versatility.
I can't wait for you to rage at some more posts including mine. Time to get some popcorn for this one is good and very enjoyable.
Proud Officer of The Madborn
If I'm a completionist, I'm ahead - because I bother getting each PL*3, meaning I have completionist - +1 DC over you. If I'm not a completionist, it's a draw, sadly enough.
How do you know I'm not a drow evoker? Suddenly I have more.
Completionist isn't a waste of time if you play harder content... +1 DC matters. Frankly, nothing is a waste of time, because it's a game. It doesn't have the aim of sitting at level 28. It has the aim of amusing you, however that may be.
There are three important extras to note:
1. Spellcraft is now a must have for casters, as it directly affects your power (one for one, I think). That means that sorcs have to balance Con versus Int, survivability versus damage output. Some see this as a further nerf to sorcs, but I see it as an interesting choice to make. I personally went 18 Cha, 16 Con, 16 Int.
2. Perform is used as Spellcraft above for sonic boost. I like this change, too, since I rely upon sonic spells a lot and they've always been weak in damage output. Plus it's fun to have a place to spend all my skill points, thanks to the higher Int I was forced to take.
3. Yeah, the Savant trees each grant a package deal in terms of improving skills. Each one grants a small bonus of some sort if you take level 3 in it. See here the wiki for details:
At the top of the page, you can change from water to air to fire, etc. They're all tier 1 abilities.
I don't know why you're getting knocked down more. Yeah, I've been blind to mobs more, lately, too, come to think about it. I used to see their outlines but now I don't see anything - there have been changes made to stealth. I wonder if that's what's affecting us?
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