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  1. #21
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    But the point is that they aren't helping. Not at all. That is what griefing is, at it's core. A complete withholding of help or assistance, combined with some form of antagonizing behavior. But I'm sure you knew that, you wouldn't be here defending the behavior if you didn't know exactly what it's outcomes were.
    So by your logic, if my wizard is the first to engage a group of mobs, say with an acid blast, and the entire group is reduced to 20% or less of health, the melees that run in and mop up aren't team players, they're griefers? If a mob is being chewed down by a melee, but the mob crits and significantly reduces the melees health, should I hold back because the kill wasn't rightfully mine?
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  2. #22
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    So by your logic, if my wizard is the first to engage a group of mobs, say with an acid blast, and the entire group is reduced to 20% or less of health, the melees that run in and mop up aren't team players, they're griefers?
    Ah, I see. This is simply a trolling session. Melee are not usually good at this type of griefing because they have to be in very close range of a mob to score a hit, and there is no reason (typically) for them to ever stop swinging while next to an active mob. To some degree, saving your boost effect until the mob is close to dead might count, but you'd still be a very inferior griefer.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    If a mob is being chewed down by a melee, but the mob crits and significantly reduces the melees health, should I hold back because the kill wasn't rightfully mine?
    You only hold back to conserve spell points, and even then you should be swinging your scepters or firing a missile weapon or wand. As I have explained already, but you simply want to argue, the acts that I am talking about serve no useful purpose and are done deliberately. Either you are aware of this already (and are likely the exact type of person I am talking about), or your ignorance is your bliss and my bane.

  3. #23
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    OP, you've got several different people in this thread trying to explain to you in several different ways that in DDO it doesnt frickin matter who gets the kill, and you're still stuck on it. So go ahead and believe that all these other people are completely wrong (cause nooooo, it couldn't possibly be you that's wrong, could it?).

    Here's a suggestion: soloing will always guarantee you the "Kill Count" ribbon. No one will steal "your" kills.

    You're Welcome.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  4. #24
    Community Member RavenStormclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Hi there. Welcome. Yes, Wikipedia and myself would like to inform you that your behavior falls under a certain category of gaming:



    Note that I not only have to deal with an extremely pervasive form of illegitimate gaming, but because it has become so rampant and annoying, I have to take EXTRA care when I cast for fear of being labeled as a griefer myself, even if I didn't intend to do damage to an almost-dead mob. The point is that the damage is horribly misbalanced, and a griefing tool whether some particular person uses it to grief or not. There is no save for the spell, and it does about TWICE the damage of many other types of ray spells, some of which have saves.
    I hate to point this out but necrotic does indeed have a save. Fortitude for half damage. The neg level does not have a save however.

  5. #25
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Hi there. Welcome. Yes, Wikipedia and myself would like to inform you that your behavior falls under a certain category of gaming:



    Note that I not only have to deal with an extremely pervasive form of illegitimate gaming, but because it has become so rampant and annoying, I have to take EXTRA care when I cast for fear of being labeled as a griefer myself, even if I didn't intend to do damage to an almost-dead mob. The point is that the damage is horribly misbalanced, and a griefing tool whether some particular person uses it to grief or not. There is no save for the spell, and it does about TWICE the damage of many other types of ray spells, some of which have saves.
    Just so you know, since you evidently don't, in this instance, the griefing isn't a party member killing a mob, it's somebody outside the group stealing a kill, and in DDO, it's not possible to "kill steal" by the very literal definition. I'm sorry that you feel that you're entitled to having your name on the top of the kill list, but just because you don't get the kill doesn't mean you lose anything.

  6. #26
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Ah, I see. This is simply a trolling session. Melee are not usually good at this type of griefing because they have to be in very close range of a mob to score a hit, and there is no reason (typically) for them to ever stop swinging while next to an active mob. To some degree, saving your boost effect until the mob is close to dead might count, but you'd still be a very inferior griefer.



    You only hold back to conserve spell points, and even then you should be swinging your scepters or firing a missile weapon or wand. As I have explained already, but you simply want to argue, the acts that I am talking about serve no useful purpose and are done deliberately. Either you are aware of this already (and are likely the exact type of person I am talking about), or your ignorance is your bliss and my bane.
    wow i'm not sure what is wrong with you but who cares who gets the kill. it doesn't bother me one bit if someone else gets it. The whole point is to kill the mobs and not die. not to wipe in a dungeon. So if you want to cry about someone stealing your kills please do so. let your epeen grow. you dont get experience nor loot for any kills so who cares. its not griefing. the monsters hate everyone equally and will try to kill the players.

    So if you think someone else coming and hitting the mobs is such a big deal then solo. stop grouping with people and complaining hey you stole my kill.

  7. #27
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    OP,...
    Ya, well here's your problem. You are oblivious to what is going on around you. I am not the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    ...you've got several different people in this thread trying to explain to you in several different ways that in DDO it doesnt frickin matter who gets the kill, and you're still stuck on it.
    I am NOT stuck on who is getting the kill. I have a Divine Disciple cleric who is very good (too good, imo, and I have the arsenal of characters with which to compare) at getting kills even without resorting to griefing. The behavior that I am "stuck" on is pure griefing. People are letting me spend ~50 spell points on a heal because the mob BEHIND the one the fighter is swinging at eventually did 350 damage. Those people were focused on getting the kill at the expense of the fighter. Note it wasn't just about getting ANY kill..., it was, specifically, to get the kill that the fighter was ABOUT to get.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavenStormclaw View Post
    I hate to point this out but necrotic does indeed have a save. Fortitude for half damage. The neg level does not have a save however.
    I have yet to see it do less than 850-900 damage on high-fort mobs. Maybe all mobs are saving, everytime. That just puts the damage in the way-beyond-absurd category.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    I suggest you read the Wikipedia article. If not you, about 50% of the rest of the playerbase needs to read it.
    Wikipedia is not really the ultimate arbiter of unequivocal facts.... You cant just define griefing in an article, and then cite it to determine if something is griefing or not. Griefing is like pornography, you cant define it but you know it when you see it. "Kill stealing" in a game where kill count is totally irrelevant is not griefing, because most of us wouldn't call it griefing. That's really the only definition that matters.

  9. #29
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    This is simply a trolling session.
    You rang?

  10. #30
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    I have seen Silver Flame Cleric (or FVS) builds that holds a Pinion Longbow claimed to do intense fury shot DPS in the quest that don't buff, don't heal, don't aura, don't positive energy bust and don't resurrect.
    If you mean if they are back in that sense; yeah, they're back.
    If you need a cleric or FvS to buff and heal you, you're doing it wrong.
    Twist cocoon, get some UMD and you'll be fine.

    Energy burst is meh. Only use is clearing AoE negs... Get some visors and I won't need to.

    If you need a healbot, they aren't coming back. Ever. Boring as all hell to play, unless the group has no defences - in which case I'd rather solo the quest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe
    You only hold back to conserve spell points, and even then you should be swinging your scepters or firing a missile weapon or wand.
    1) Why swing a scepter? That requires melee range, which implies a degree of danger - and heal bots, like you need, shouldn't be in danger.
    2) Wands. Brilliant! ...Aside from the stupidly low DC, low damage, lack of spell pen, etc.
    3) Missile weapon? Requires lots of feats to be viable. Unless you count 20-30/hit as useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe
    What I really wanted to disagree with, however, is that the SLAs were "a step in the correct direction." No, they were most definitely a step in the WRONG direction. The necrotic ray hits for about 900 damage, or 1800 on a crit with just maximize (my cleric does not have Empower). It is yet another tool for ranged combat griefers to annoy the holy bedbugs out of anyone playing legitimately. Sit there waiting for the mob to get down to 25% of health, hit your little "I get the Kill, YAY" button. The tactic is becoming so pervasive with the playerbase that I am having a hard time keeping my cool.
    Deal with it. They were a step in the RIGHT direction - they gave clerics a way to deal solid damage. If you don't like players, blacklist and move on. Don't complain on forums, because 900/hit isn't that powerful.
    If 900/hit is 25% of hp, you're playing against epic hard... In which case instakill will work better for a casting cleric. Honestly, if kill stealing bothers you, there's an issue with you. Kills don't matter. To honestly believe that is folly.
    You feel cheated to lose a kill, because you feel kills mean something? Really?

    I'm sorry, but you argument is flawed, simply because kills don't matter in DDO. Put your ego away, play the game, don't bring up the kills if it's so painful.

  11. #31
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    No, it is EXACTLY that. They are sitting there twiddling their thumbs while other people fight, then waiting for the precise moment that gives them the best chance of looking uber while other people get misinformed about how well their tactics worked.

    I'm seriously wondering at this point if I'm dealing with clever griefers, or people clueless to what is going on around them and want to assume that everyone playing DDO is some RPG artisan. I think there might be two of those still playing...

    It doesn't matter. If you are shooting for the kill, stop it. It's that simple.
    Fighter enhancement - "A Good Death" On ranged damage do 500 damage if target is below 20% health

    Hard to argue that waiting until the last moment to 'kill steal' from range is not valid when there's an enhancement to do precisely that.

    Fighters also have a melee variant, the same for rogues...

  12. #32
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    ...because kills don't matter in DDO. Put your ego away, play the game, don't bring up the kills if it's so painful.
    Ya, kills don't matter, but here you are dog-piling onto a conversation that has already gone way past its prime.

    As for the rest of that bahooey, I've got a list of my own:

    1) Most people playing (especially right now) are running epic hard for xp reasons. Epic hard is really the only difficulty that needs to be balanced. Epic elite is a severely forlorn stepchild that has no future and no past.

    2) You swing a scepter because it does damage. The same with missile weapons and wands. Obviously you want to be as effective as you can be, and not take more damage than you are dealing, but that goes without saying for people who actually have played the game for any significant amount of time. It also, by necessity, means that you target mobs against who your damage is USEFUL, and it doesn't all get wasted in negative hp space.

    3) I am well aware at how effective instakills are in epic hard. I would be talking about that next if people didn't go ballistic by me telling them they are griefers. I am mildly surprised that any of you took it as an insult.

  13. #33
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Maybe Raithe is worried about... nvm, off topic.

    Will be nice to see more fun cleric builds.
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  14. #34
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    I want the kill count !! Wait I needs da kill count !!!!! , ahh ill stop , This one guy just got head problems and needs to find a women :

    The only time kill count actually counts is when you have someon in group blitzing , I play an AA and usually make sure I get no kills , I don't give a expletive what others think the people who play with me know the deal , And the ones who even mention kill counts usually never make it in our groups again .

    Really atleast 70 % of most servers are casuals , You play on eh and you will stay playing on eh well after you Capp

    Get with the EE crowd people you might actually enjoy running a quest where you run the risk of wiping !!

  15. #35
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    I'm trying to figure out how this is possibly "griefing", or "not playing legitimately". Are you just upset that they get the kill, rather than you? That they're "stealing" it?
    Only one situation I could see this being a problem - with someone running Master's Blitz. They need kills to keep it going. Kill steal them enough and they lose it.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 09-10-2013 at 12:44 AM.
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  16. #36
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    Default geez

    Kill stealing, lmao. I suppose there may be a few idiots out there just going for kill count, but id bet there are a lot more idiots that assume thats what someone is doing who is simply playing intelligently and in a manner that best helps the group succeed.

    Heres one simple scenario: joebob killmonger is attacking a mob on ee, the cleric who spent most of his time hjealin joebob sees mob is at 1/3 health, in kill range for one of his cheap spells...

    So here the logic so many fail at here, first of all, as a non frontline type character, you dont generally want to attack a full health mob or you take agro, you let someone with better defense engage. After a while you know the general rate of dps of other party members(if you pay attention), you also know the rate the character takes damage.


    Heres where it gets crazy, when you know killing something that is at x% health will likely cost you less mana than healing the sponge several times before he can "get his kill", that is the only strategically sound course of action.

    There are a ton of other reasons to "kill steal" for a smoother run, speed, mana efficiency on aoes, some of the new enhancements that req kills and many more.

    This killcount idiocy is the same reason people are exploiting, same people with the kllcount mentality bs

  17. #37
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Heres where it gets crazy, when you know killing something that is at x% health will likely cost you less mana than healing the sponge several times before he can "get his kill", that is the only strategically sound course of action.
    Unless the person you are healing is using Master's Blitz. In that case you might have saved SP for that single enemy, but you are losing more because it will take him longer to kill future enemies.
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  18. #38
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Only one situation I could see this being a problem - with someone running Master's Blitz. They need kills to keep it going. Kill steal them enough and they lose it.
    That's the single situation where I could legitimately see someone going "Hey, don't do that please." But to go on this long-winded rant about it being "not a legitimate way to play", "kill-stealing", "should stay in the back and plink with a bow", etc? It sounds as though Raithe is simply a glory-hound, who wants all the kill-credit for himself.

    "MY KILL! MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE! How dare you finish it off for a pittance of mana! I could have killed it in another couple swings, and gotten another hashmark on my killcount! Filthy hobbitses!"

    Heck, if a big mob is getting near death, and I know I don't need every last drop of mana in the next few minutes, sure I'll toss a 5-10 mana blast at them. After all, with SLA's I can dump every single metamagic I have onto them and the mana cost doesn't change. That's the nice thing about SLAs. Low cost, high damage. Heck, my light bolts on my radiant cleric can burn down a 5000hp mob in seconds, for about 20-30 total mana, depending on crits.

    And Raithe, nobody is "going ballistic for being called griefers". We're just kind of staring and laughing at you for having the audacity to claim that mob kills are "yours".
    Last edited by Lorianna; 09-10-2013 at 01:12 AM.

  19. #39
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    Well my Clerics have plenty of feats, but they are not pure.

    I like CLR17/WIZ1 and then FTR2 added at the end, but now with Cleric 18 being nice for that sunburst spell I don't know about FTR2. Maybe just FTR1. That is a lot more feats to open up EDs like Spell Focus or Spell Pen even on a melee cleric. Now with 3 epic feat slots too. That Sunburst seems expensive to use though?

    Also the Incredible Healing increased by 3 lvls.
    Incredible Healing: The maximum caster level of your Positive Energy Spells are increased by 1/2/3.
    Intense Healing: Your Positive Energy Spells are cast at +1/+2/+3 caster level.

    How does that work?
    And also considering a multi class Cleric.
    Last edited by firemedium_jt; 09-10-2013 at 01:28 AM.
    Your lack of healing amp not my problem. Please buy and use your own remove curse pots in combat, so I don't waste mana. Not my job.

  20. #40
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    Default lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Unless the person you are healing is using Master's Blitz. In that case you might have saved SP for that single enemy, but you are losing more because it will take him longer to kill future enemies.
    Id like to think joebob would be bright enough to tell the group hes blitzing, but yeah, likely not if hes worried about kill count so much.

    However, if hes doing enough damage by blitzing to kill fast id never hit the killshot anyway, because it wouldnt be an efficient use of mana.

    There is an exception, if i play with a guy thats bragging about kills or putting down others ill smash his kill count just for the fun of it, then at the end of quest ill say i forgot to have power attack or maximize on just to screw with him.
    Last edited by 01000010; 09-10-2013 at 01:41 AM.

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