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  1. #61
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    I look forward to seeing your video. Be sure you record the combat log and make it large enough to read. That is because you may have turned off on-screen displays but the combat log will tell when you are hit and when you are missed.

    Until then here is the evidence that AC works.




    AC, fortification and PRR numbers.




    Breakdown of AC numbers and also dodge %.




    eElite Cabal.




    Combat log. Arrows for reference showing top of log and last entry to tie into next photo in case someone feels need to accuse me of altering the data.




    One attack and hit.




    Attacks two and three; 1 hit & 1 miss.




    Attacks four, five and six; 2 hits & 1 miss.




    Attacks seven thru eleven; 2 hits and 3 misses (2 due to dodge).

    Total is 11 attacks with 6 hits, 5 misses (3 due to AC, 2 due to dodge). AC provides 60% of the misses, dodge 40% of the misses. Rest of the data calculations appear in a post above regarding what this means in terms of the Cloven-Jaw Warlord's actual to-hit number.

    If you even have a 170AC character it is not getting hit every time. You might think it is if you are depending on what you see on the screen for your information. But, the combat log will tell the real story.

    In this case the combat log clearly shows that dodge and AC give just under 50% protection against being hit -- and that with AC far below the 170 that you are claiming.

    BTW, anyone else noticing that the AC value is growing in the troll's posts?

  2. #62
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    So you picked and chosed your screenshots for those 5-10% of the time you got missed?

    Video or it hasn't happened.

    My apologies to the OP for completely derailing his thread.

    I have to say though, awesome toon name.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 09-12-2013 at 12:19 PM.

  3. #63
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Apologies to the rest of the forum community.

    To Teh_Troll, I'm not going to post video. You clearly are incapable of understanding that you are wrong. Any other person reading the posts can see that the screen shots are not pick/chosen to show anything -- that they are consecutive shots from the same combat.

    You are intent on being wrong and that is your right. However the clear fact is that your claims are entirely without merit.

    As to your prior claims of ineffective AC, I'll use your same observation -- without video proof it just did not happen.

    You can disbelieve the evidence I present. But at least I've got the courage to present evidence -- evidence that every other person reading the forums can clearly see is not fabricated or falsified.

    Lastly, 5 misses out of 11 attacks is not 5-10% misses. You obviously are incapable of understanding even the most basic facts regardless of how they are presented. Fortunately, other readers are not so obtuse.

  4. #64
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Apologies to the rest of the forum community.

    To Teh_Troll, I'm not going to post video.
    because it's harder to fake?

    Got it.

  5. #65
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Apologies to the rest of the forum community.

    To Teh_Troll, I'm not going to post video. You clearly are incapable of understanding that you are wrong. Any other person reading the posts can see that the screen shots are not pick/chosen to show anything -- that they are consecutive shots from the same combat.

    You are intent on being wrong and that is your right. However the clear fact is that your claims are entirely without merit.

    As to your prior claims of ineffective AC, I'll use your same observation -- without video proof it just did not happen.

    You can disbelieve the evidence I present. But at least I've got the courage to present evidence -- evidence that every other person reading the forums can clearly see is not fabricated or falsified.

    Lastly, 5 misses out of 11 attacks is not 5-10% misses. You obviously are incapable of understanding even the most basic facts regardless of how they are presented. Fortunately, other readers are not so obtuse.
    You have made your point very clear and those of us that realize you are right already do. The ones who don't understand and can't see the facts will never see them.

    As far as teh_troll ignore him I do he is just being what his name says. He knows he is wrong and lost the argument. Just look at his posts no evidence and all he says is your wrong. He is just getting you going and living up to his name.
    Proud Officer of The Madborn

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There is so much potential awesome in quoting this, I'll let somebody else get the slam dunk.

    Math proves nothing without in-game tests proving the maths are close. Our tests show 170 AC gives no noticiable amounts of misses above the 5% miss everything gets when rolling a one.

    You're math is worthless (just like AC).

    Go test it, get a toon with 150 AC in let some EE GH trash beat on you. Tank the EE LOB and EE TO.

    I've done this, you have not. You know nothing.
    I probably shouldn't be doing this, but I'll pick up the trollbait, even if it is a bit late. First off, as Therigar stated that the wiki says that monster's to hit is (Monster’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2), I will use this, along with the evidence you have shown here, to deduce the supposed monster attack bonuses. Anyways, we know the Target's AC, we know the claimed result, the only unknown is the attack bonus. Thus:

    95% to hit [claimed hit chance] = (MAB [unknown monster attack bonus] + 10.5) / (170 [provided AC] * 2)

    simplifies to:

    95% to hit = (MAB + 10.5) / 340

    multiply both sides by 340:

    340 * (95% to hit) = MAB + 10.5

    subtract 10.5 from both sides:

    (340 * [95% to hit]) - 10.5 = MAB

    simplify:

    340 * 0.95 [decimal form of 95%] = 323

    323 - 10.5 = MAB

    Monster Attack Bonus = 312.5



    So, for mobs to only miss you 5% of the time with a 170 AC, they would need to have around a 312 attack bonus. You said 200 was rediculous, right?


    EDIT: I have found the page to which Therigar was referring to, link is: http://ddowiki.com/page/Armor_Class?useskin=sparseman, first formula under chances to be hit.
    Last edited by the613; 09-12-2013 at 06:37 PM.

  7. #67
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    Default Great Build

    Great build.
    There's a lot of thought and work gone into this.

    I haven't ever played monks, so please excuse a dumb question.
    I noticed that you have listed both shintao and ninja enhancements. I thought these paths were mutually exclusive.
    I even created a veteran character and fiddled around, trying to get both, but could not. Each time I tried, it reset the enhancement trees.

    I suspect I am missing something fairly obvious here, but could you explain how it works with both trees?
    Did you take the harmonious path, then switch back to dominion at a higher level ?

    Thanks

  8. #68
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wroth View Post
    Great build.
    There's a lot of thought and work gone into this.

    I haven't ever played monks, so please excuse a dumb question.
    I noticed that you have listed both shintao and ninja enhancements. I thought these paths were mutually exclusive.
    I even created a veteran character and fiddled around, trying to get both, but could not. Each time I tried, it reset the enhancement trees.

    I suspect I am missing something fairly obvious here, but could you explain how it works with both trees?
    Did you take the harmonious path, then switch back to dominion at a higher level ?

    Thanks
    You can have up to 6 trees open at a time. there is a drop down box in each section. Just add the new one there. You can have all 3 monk at one time if wish.

    Every time you switch a tree without saving it erases everything you have done.

    Sounds to me that you are just trying to use and keep switching that one and is causing your problem. Look at enhancements and then look next to the one you are veiwing should be a blank box with drop down at bottom click that and should be able to add shint or henshai or even ninja.
    Proud Officer of The Madborn

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    You can have up to 6 trees open at a time. there is a drop down box in each section. Just add the new one there. You can have all 3 monk at one time if wish.

    Every time you switch a tree without saving it erases everything you have done.

    Sounds to me that you are just trying to use and keep switching that one and is causing your problem. Look at enhancements and then look next to the one you are veiwing should be a blank box with drop down at bottom click that and should be able to add shint or henshai or even ninja.
    Thanks you sir! Problem solved.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjflanigan View Post
    That would be true, except that in order to take Master Stances, you have to already have Adept Stances -- and you only get that for free with 6 monk levels. That leads us back to needing 16 total levels by level 15, doesn't it?

    -JJ
    The only way I've been able to fit in the feats properly was to go 8 levels of ranger rather than monk.

    Should look something like this, I think:

    Ranger - Dodge
    Monk - Mobility
    Ranger - Two Weapon Defense
    Ranger
    Ranger
    Ranger - Spring Attack
    Ranger
    Ranger
    Ranger - Empower Heal
    Monk - Toughness (Could swap a Pally level here to have a chance to get more points into Intim)
    Monk
    Monk - Greater Two Weapon Fighting (Should get to +11 BAB by now to meet the BAB requirement)
    Monk
    Monk - Combat Expertise
    Paladin - Master of Forms
    Paladin
    Paladin
    Paladin - Grandmaster of Forms
    Paladin
    Paladin
    Last edited by HolyHamGrenade; 09-16-2013 at 02:35 AM.

  11. #71
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyHamGrenade View Post
    The only way I've been able to fit in the feats properly was to go 8 levels of ranger rather than monk.

    Should look something like this, I think:

    Ranger - Dodge
    Monk - Mobility
    Ranger - Two Weapon Defense
    Ranger
    Ranger
    Ranger - Spring Attack
    Ranger
    Ranger
    Ranger - Empower Heal
    Monk - Toughness (Could swap a Pally level here to have a chance to get more points into Intim)
    Monk
    Monk - Greater Two Weapon Fighting (Should get to +11 BAB by now to meet the BAB requirement)
    Monk
    Monk - Combat Expertise
    Paladin - Master of Forms
    Paladin
    Paladin
    Paladin - Grandmaster of Forms
    Paladin
    Paladin
    Yeah I think you got me. Ranger level 4 does not get cure light wounds but rather level 8 ranger so this character would have to go 8 ranger 6 paladin 6 monk which means a little less will save unfortunately.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Yeah I think you got me. Ranger level 4 does not get cure light wounds but rather level 8 ranger so this character would have to go 8 ranger 6 paladin 6 monk which means a little less will save unfortunately.
    Haha. I spent at least an hour after I started this character twice trying to get the feats right. Then did a test to make sure you couldn't get Empower Heal on Ranger 4.

    It's a pretty tight build, so it doesn't surprise me that my derpy ass took some extra time to figure this out.

    I've been trying to think of a way to up the Will Saves some, but nothing's really coming to me. Is the Will Save weakness pretty significant at endgame, especially EE content, or is it workable as a tank? Been thinking maybe it'd be an option to swap Resilience for Combat Expertise for a +4 saves boost, but you'd lose the 10 AC. Depends on how necessary the extra 4 to Will Saves would be.
    Last edited by HolyHamGrenade; 09-16-2013 at 10:53 PM.

  13. #73
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyHamGrenade View Post
    Haha. I spent at least an hour after I started this character twice trying to get the feats right. Then did a test to make sure you couldn't get Empower Heal on Ranger 4.

    It's a pretty tight build, so it doesn't surprise me that my derpy ass took some extra time to figure this out.

    I've been trying to think of a way to up the Will Saves some, but nothing's really coming to me. Is the Will Save weakness pretty significant at endgame, especially EE content, or is it workable as a tank? Been thinking maybe it'd be an option to swap Resilience for Combat Expertise for a +4 saves boost, but you'd lose the 10 AC. Depends on how necessary the extra 4 to Will Saves would be.
    Well mid 60s will save is fine right now for sure, but the reality is at some point it will not be good enough. CE and Epic Mage Armor both depend on this having an ac that is adequate otherwise perfect two weapon fighting and resilence (have not tested if this effects cocoon if it does get something else) such as icrit pierce or perhaps force of personaility if that make sense will save wise. A third option for feats is point blank and manyshot although bow damage is kind of dreadful, but anyway lots of options. The reality is I have not had a chance to work on this build, but plan to level up the character this weekend from 18th level and eventually lr into this build so all the kinks not fully worked out. When I get the kinks worked out better I will change the op.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  14. #74

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    Paladin 4 should also qualify you for Empower Heal.

    Also, Matt, have you considered Ki-Shout for the Shintao Tree instead of Intimidate? I was thinking maybe it could be used to bypass the halfling intimidate penalty.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • One loot system to rule them all. (Including Cannith Crafting, and Named Loot.)
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Adjusting Challenge XP so that they're worth running more than once.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Paladin 4 should also qualify you for Empower Heal.
    Yeah, it was talked about earlier in the thread that you could do Pally 4 for Empower Heal, but then you can't get to Master of Stances at 12 and Greater Two Weapon Fighting at 15. 4 Pally levels for Empower Heal, 6 Ranger to get Improved Two Weapon Fighting so you can get Greater, then 6 Monk to get Adept of Forms to then take Master. That's 16 levels needed by level 15 (as jjflanigan was saying earlier).

    Matt, I'll be watching for the update of your build since this build really intrigues me and it's been pretty interesting to play.

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyHamGrenade View Post
    Yeah, it was talked about earlier in the thread that you could do Pally 4 for Empower Heal, but then you can't get to Master of Stances at 12 and Greater Two Weapon Fighting at 15. 4 Pally levels for Empower Heal, 6 Ranger to get Improved Two Weapon Fighting so you can get Greater, then 6 Monk to get Adept of Forms to then take Master. That's 16 levels needed by level 15 (as jjflanigan was saying earlier).
    Ah. That’s too bad. I was beginning to see an interesting 6 Ranger/9 Monk/5 Paladin build.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • One loot system to rule them all. (Including Cannith Crafting, and Named Loot.)
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Adjusting Challenge XP so that they're worth running more than once.

  17. #77
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Paladin 4 should also qualify you for Empower Heal.

    Also, Matt, have you considered Ki-Shout for the Shintao Tree instead of Intimidate? I was thinking maybe it could be used to bypass the halfling intimidate penalty.
    I did consider ki-shout, but besides the additional action point cost for ki shout, there are less extra bumps to concentration like there are to ki shout like the epic gloves of the claw give +5 intimidate so it is a little bit of a wash - you could get con skills with a shroud hit point item which might save a slot that you would not have to devote to charisma skills ( you would also swap draconic presence for gmof enlightment) so a little bit of balancing act. Another fairly large question is if this build can not get an ac that is sufficient then perhaps it should fit in force of personality feat (instead of combat expertise) and lower wisdom and raise up charisma a little bit which would in turn save some more slots and might get a little higher will save. These are the types of tweaks that I am talking about.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  18. #78
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    I was looking over this build because it is similar in play style to my current monk, a Monk 12, 6 pally, 2 Fighter.

    I am a bit apprehensive to lower my 12 monk levels, because do so enjoy the Abundant step and improved evasion.

    Unfortunately the dilema then became, 2 ranger vs 6 ranger.

    6 gets many shot and PBS in addition to ITWF, and as far as enhancements go, dex while dual wielding to damage on light weapons,
    10% from Tempest. and 3% dodge cap from improved dodge, Rams might, and some spell points.

    VS
    Abundant step
    Monks Improved Unarmded Damage,
    Diamond Body
    Improved Evasion
    +3 Monk AC
    and a bit more from saves.
    10% movement speed
    1[w] damage
    and slow fall, its enough to stop damage from falling, though you still fall quickly.

    In addition, i would love to see the PA chain worked in... and boost wisdom to adequately utilize stunning fist

    but once i look at all of this i realize that i drop a lot of defense when doing this. and its a bit frustrating. any advice?


    Edit
    I built a halfling, and regret taking PA/cleave/Gcleave(didnt have the feat slot for OC or the STR,) so ill rebuild it with three other abilities.

    i set up my character with far from optimal gear, and it gave him 133 AC, 22% dodge 20% concealment, 25% incorporealty, and 110 PRR.

    the pop up box says a 69% at level defense chance.

    seeing as my thoughts on PA didnt workout.

    Ill probably change it to:
    12 monk/6 paladin/2 ranger.
    Feats
    Stunning Fist
    Dodge
    Mobilty
    Spring Attacjk
    ITWF
    GTWF
    GMOF
    Combat Expertise
    Empower Healing
    Epic Skill Focus Concentration(used this instead of Intim)
    Mage Armor
    Epic Reflex

    and 2 other feats, 1 epic, 1 not, probably wont take toughness, as i said far from optimal gear, and have 800hp, with better gear i could break 1k.

    Also thinking of making it wisdom on levels, rather than dex, because i like me some stunning fist.
    Last edited by Xyzima; 09-18-2013 at 04:08 AM.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by the613 View Post
    Monster Attack Bonus = 312.5
    Here is an old chart of mine:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Dodge-vs-TOHIT

    I think the general rule of thumb for monster TOHIT was about 2.5-3 x CR. Potentially you can also estimate it from their damage output. Reverse engineer their STR bonus from the average of their damage, eye ball their weapons, etc. There were some data mined numbers on the alternative forum from the druid boss in Druid's Deep.


    While Therigar's dataset is way too small to be meanful. If we assumpt it is correct - then at AC112/23% Dodge and being hit about 55% of the time, gives a mob TOHIT around 150. Based on the rule of thumb, that's about a CR of 50-60.

    I'm not playing at the moment, but I'm sure that is easy enough to check.

    Part of the problem with the AC system as the CR scales is the power curve. The trade off to get AC at high levels does not scale relative to other build options. The jump in requirement for AC from 100 to 120 is much less than from 120 to 150, and then 150 to 200. ie. AC is better at lower levels.

    A level 28 AC toon is going to trouble staying (without trade offs) at the top end of the power curve vs the scaling of mob CR. Migration (incorp and dodge) and PRR, have constant scaling throughout - so as you level these should see a better return on gear/build investment.
    Varz
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  20. #80
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I have revised this build. It is now a halfling 10 monk 6 paladin 4 fighter build. The main reason was more intimidate skill and improved evasion.
    Key Stats:
    107 intimidate
    40 UMD
    Hit Points in unyielding vigor of battle: 1190 hp
    Positive spell power 240
    Healing Amp Gear: 20%, 30% amp and 2 pally past lives and monk enhancement 5% and vigor battle 10%.
    25% incorporeal
    125 physical resistance
    31% dodge with 34% dodge cap
    No useful Ac
    Hate: 30% hate gear, 100% sacred divine righteousness/75% sacred pally stance, 75% insight grandmaster earth.
    Self Healing: cocoon, regenerating light the dark, silver flame pots which do not take you out of monk stance.
    Saves:
    Fort: 80
    Reflex: 78
    Will: 69
    Greater Two weapon fighting & I crit pierce with non dependence on any set of shortswords i.e. no shortsword affect these stats.

    Gear:
    goggles: +10 charisma, +9 save resistance
    Helm: White Dragon Helm +8 dexterity, +2 good luck, draconic soul gem.
    Necklace: Deadly +9, Intimidation +20.
    Shamanic Fetish
    Cloak: Shroud +45 hp mineral 2/absorption cloaks
    Armor: White Dragon
    Belt: +10 constitution, +9 dodge
    Wrist: Iron Manacles of acid resistance 45, +35 greater false life, globe of imperial blood
    Gloves: Purple Dragon Gauntlets
    Ring 1: Band of Syberis Healing 20%
    Ring 2: Guardian's ring +2 strength
    Boots: Shroud Concord Opposition 100 spell points, +6 charisma skills
    Shortswords; Celestias x2, elemental fury x2
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

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