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  1. #41
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Well, actually, multiple WF AMs can get the equivalent of overlapping auras by using mass repair critical.
    I did not know that. Good thing to know.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Honestly, I could care less about whether the WF AM is stronger than a fleshy PM in self-healing. To me it comes down to a matter of preference.
    WF wizards are clearly and undeniably more power powerful than fleshie PMs. This is indisputable, even moreso now that they can drop a few points in the PM tree and hop into (whatever) form situationally if they ever happen to need the immunities. Which they almost never will.

    And I'm not disputing that auras d insignificant damage...the fact is they DO inflict damage on mobs that are in range. The point was that for the same spell you get healing and damage all in one.
    As you say, it's insignificant damage. Which means it's completely not worth mentioning as a virtue, because it's insignificant. That's kind of what insignificant means. You don't get healing and damage all in one because the damage is so insignificant that it's functionally equivalent to not doing any damage at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I did not know that. Good thing to know.
    Mass spells work on players in the area of effect.

    To be clear, I don't think any WF wizards actually use them. Just that the functionality is there. The reason that they don't use them is because they heal for far less than reconstruct, so why bother with the mass repairs? (Note that those mass repairs heal for way more than PM aura, but it's still garbage healing compared to reconstruct.)

  3. #43
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    This is weird because I replied to this and nothing is there now.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    WF wizards are clearly and undeniably more power powerful than fleshie PMs. This is indisputable, even moreso now that they can drop a few points in the PM tree and hop into (whatever) form situationally if they ever happen to need the immunities. Which they almost never will.
    Once again, which is more powerful is fairly subjective. It depends on what you are going for, and how you play a specific toon

    Secondly WF rarely need the PM immunities because they already have a chunk of them built-in. Plus, the best form of the three initial forms in the PM tree when it comes to defense is Wraith by far. That, however, requires a significant investment in the tree, and I sorta doubt that someone running a WF and taking AM as their primary would want to make that kind of investment in enhancements when they could equip a couple of items to get near the same setup.

    But it isn’t that either AM is so powerful or WF are so great (they are an already unbalanced race as far as I’m concerned).

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    As you say, it's insignificant damage. Which means it's completely not worth mentioning as a virtue, because it's insignificant. That's kind of what insignificant means. You don't get healing and damage all in one because the damage is so insignificant that it's functionally equivalent to not doing any damage at all.
    Context is key here.

    The original statement was about how auras are insignificant in EE. Well, virtually ALL healing is insignificant healing in EE given how hard mobs hit, and the potential for lag. You may cast a quicken Reconstruct, but your wireless card, router, and internet provider may disagree.

    Secondly, in that situation, it doesn’t matter whether you are a WF AM or a PM, you’re hanging out in the back avoiding damage and casting stuff from afar. You get a bunch of mobs on you, you’re gonna be toast. And don’t tell me that this isn’t the case with WF AMs either. I was in an EE run recently, I saw one die with their all-powerful quickened Reconstruct. It is not a fool-proof solution.

    However, in EH and lower content doing damage with auras is not insignificant, and not by a long shot. If you want to turn your nose up at nailing a mob for 100 – 200 HP a tick for just standing there and healing yourself, that’s your business. But don’t tell me that it is insignificant, because you’d be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    To be clear, I don't think any WF wizards actually use them. Just that the functionality is there. The reason that they don't use them is because they heal for far less than reconstruct, so why bother with the mass repairs? (Note that those mass repairs heal for way more than PM aura, but it's still garbage healing compared to reconstruct.)
    The whole WF AM vs. PM thing is inconsequential to me. Even if I admit that WF AMs are more powerful – which I am not, but let’s assume I am – the argument I am making is that PM is already a very powerful, easy class to play already. The forms do exactly what they are supposed to for the class, and you have to be an absolute goof (or like me, get distracted by my kids while I’m in the middle of melee and forget to re-cast my auras) to die in a vast array of content. Going in and changing Zombie and Vampire form so that someone can do some idiotic splash with a Monk is going to make that class even more unbalanced and more god-like then they are at present.

    I’ve run Zombie form. It is great to use in lower-level content. And that’s exactly what it was designed to do.

    So, if you want to continue down this road thumping your chest over WF AM, please be my guest. That’s not the point, was never the point, and is not what I am concerned about.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    This is weird because I replied to this and nothing is there now.
    Agreed. And I replied to this as well but it's gone now.

    In short: I meant that in a tiny handful of situations a WF AM might want to hop into undead form for immunity to dancing, plus possibly also the endfight of DD. I'm talking like 5 cases in the whole game.

    Regarding aura, I'm saying it's insignificant damage at all levels of play, not just EE.

    I am not thumping my chest about WF AMs. Not only do I only play fleshie PMs for arcanes, I don't even have WF so I couldn't roll one up if I wanted to. What I'm doing is stating the obvious.

  5. #45
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    This is weird because I replied to this and nothing is there now.
    Clearly your posts were removed by a dev I'd recommend against reposting what was removed.

    Now can we please get back on topic about how to improve Zombie and Vampire forms

    IIRC we were talking about making them multi-seclectors to add a few more options (name Quell and Mummies

    I would love if Vamp was replaced by Quell giving us an option vs. light spell casters w/o having to drop form and would be useful even into Epic

    I'd say just make Quell form grant immunity to divine spells instead of blocking divine casting. I'd also make the incorp only 10% so it doesn't step on Wraith's toes

    For Mummy (as opposed to zombie as lvl 3 core) I's say on unarmed hit apply Mummy Despair, Mummy Rot & Mummy Curse, no modifier to attack/movement speed, x2 fire damage and maybe some Mummy specific Divine SLAs.

    So it would be

    PM 3 Zombie/Mummy

    PM 6 Vamp/Quell

    PM 12 Wraith

    PM 18 Lich

    The divine SLAs make Mummy useful at all levels especially vs. Undead or other neg energy immune baddies and Quell will be useful when there's a heavy divine/light damage presence than of course Wraith is useful due to it's incorp, +20 Balance/MS (+ invis spell) and innate FF, than of course Lich is the best spellcaster form. Zombie & Vamp are left in primarily for multi-classing considerations.

    I think for Divine SLAs Mummy should get Inflict Mod Wounds (can target self), Nimbus of Light, Unholy Blight, Slay Living and Create Undead. Caster Level obviously based on Wizard Level

    Note: PMs need Harm as a tier 5 SLA
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-19-2013 at 03:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  6. #46
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Clearly your posts were removed by a dev I'd recommend against reposting what was removed.

    Now can we please get back on topic about how to improve Zombie and Vampire forms

    IIRC we were talking about making them multi-seclectors to add a few more options (name Quell and Mummies
    if the post was removed by a Dev - which I doubt they were as they were not inflammatory as other posts I have made which have gotten their attention - I would have received a nasty notification (which I have in the past).

    So I kinda doubt that.

  7. #47
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    if the post was removed by a Dev - which I doubt they were as they were not inflammatory as other posts I have made which have gotten their attention - I would have received a nasty notification (which I have in the past).

    So I kinda doubt that.
    They've been removed only devs can do that. They only inform you if you get an infraction.

    Now I'd rather not have this thread locked because of you so please don't repost things that have been removed
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-20-2013 at 12:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  8. #48
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    I would love if Vamp was replaced by Quell giving us an option vs. light spell casters w/o having to drop form and would be useful even into Epic

    I'd say just make Quell form grant immunity to divine spells instead of blocking divine casting. I'd also make the incorp only 10% so it doesn't step on Wraith's toes

    For Mummy (as opposed to zombie as lvl 3 core) I's say on unarmed hit apply Mummy Despair, Mummy Rot & Mummy Curse, no modifier to attack/movement speed, x2 fire damage and maybe some Mummy specific Divine SLAs.

    So it would be

    PM 3 Zombie/Mummy

    PM 6 Vamp/Quell

    PM 12 Wraith

    PM 18 Lich

    The divine SLAs make Mummy useful at all levels especially vs. Undead or other neg energy immune baddies and Quell will be useful when there's a heavy divine/light damage presence than of course Wraith is useful due to it's incorp, +20 Balance/MS (+ invis spell) and innate FF, than of course Lich is the best spellcaster form. Zombie & Vamp are left in primarily for multi-classing considerations.

    I think for Divine SLAs Mummy should get Inflict Mod Wounds (can target self), Nimbus of Light, Unholy Blight, Slay Living and Create Undead. Caster Level obviously based on Wizard Level

    Note: PMs need Harm as a tier 5 SLA
    I still would remove Zombies lower Attackspeed and Vampires Light sensibility but other than that i support all your suggestions.
    Especially the Harm SLA tier 5 !
    Also i would remove the Cloak of Night, as it is useless.

    Sidenote
    Wand Heightening and Wand&Scroll Mastery should get fused and cost 1 per lvl.
    Yes its Archmage stuff but Wand Heightening is the worst Enhancement out there, even more useless than the Skeleton.
    Taenebrae, Daemonsoul, Daemoneyes and Daemonheart of Argonessen
    Glitzakram - Trade Thread

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