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  1. #1
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    Default Shiradi proc damage and metas: actual data

    TL;DR conclusions:
    - Shiradi procs use the spellpower of the proc type, not the originating spell type.
    - Maximize and Empower from the originating spell do add spellpower to shiradi procs.
    - Maximize and Empower must be on the originating spell - having global toggles on and originating spell toggles "always off" doesn't work.

    ---

    There's a lot of "maximize / empower obviously do / don't affect shiradi procs" if you go back and search the forums. It's all completely anecdotal.

    So I went and spent a few minutes with Warlock Sobrien and pasted some combat logs into excel. This data is far from perfect - in particular crits make some things hard to count - but it's actual data.

    And it clearly indicates that maximize / empower metas do affect shiradi damage procs.

    ---

    Testing:
    Magic Missile (the spell, not the SLA) only, until Epic Elite Sobrien is dead.
    Prism off, only base shiradi sonic procs and force procs.
    Moderately geared level 28 16w/2m/2f shiradi.
    2 runs with no metas, 2 runs with max + empower.

    Code:
    Total missiles	1476
    Total nonmeta	885
    Total meta	591
    	
    Missile nonmeta mean dam	54.32
    Missile meta mean dam		82.58
    Missile difference		1.52
    	
    Total nonmeta sonic procs	60
    Total meta sonic procs		38
    Sonic nonmeta noncrit mean dam	239.55
    Sonic meta noncrit mean dam	349.30
    Sonic difference		1.46
    	
    Total nonmeta force procs	54
    Total meta force procs		40
    Force nonmeta noncrit mean dam	758.34
    Force meta noncrit mean dam	847.00
    Force difference		1.12
    Crits are impossible to classify correctly from the combat log; the crit indication does not print in any reliable relation to the effect that critted. I had to plot the data and guess at where the crit cutoff was.

    ---

    EDIT1: No free lunch on metas with procs. Results indicate metas have to be on for the originating spell.

    2 runs, same general conditions as previous tests.
    Global max + empower toggle on, Magic Missile max + empower local toggle "always off".

    Code:
    Total globalmeta sonic procs		73
    Sonic globalmeta noncrit mean dam	218.58
    Sonic difference normalmeta vs		1.60
    Sonic difference nonmeta vs		1.10
    	
    Total globalmeta force procs		50
    Force globalmeta noncrit mean dam	746.19
    Force difference normalmeta vs		1.14
    Force difference nonmeta vs		1.02
    Last edited by cdr; 09-07-2013 at 12:17 PM. Reason: new test

  2. #2
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Default

    do you know if your proc's damage are affected by sonic spell power or by force(untyped) since you are using magic missle. Same question for crit chance.

    Thanks in advance!

  3. #3
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    do you know if your proc's damage are affected by sonic spell power or by force(untyped) since you are using magic missle. Same question for crit chance.

    Thanks in advance!
    Sorry to not give you data specifically for it, but it really is trivial to see (and test) damage - shiradi procs use the spellpower of the proc, not the spellpower of the originating spell.

    You can see it somewhat in the above data, which was done with with a Force spellpower of 379 and a Sonic spellpower of 263. Favorable Winds is 10d10 sonic (avg 55) and Fey Power is 2d100 force (avg 110). If spellpower was the same for both, the difference between sonic and force should be 2x. But it's 236 vs 689 - 2.91x.

    What'd be more interesting is whether procs use the crit chance of the proc or the crit chance of the originating spell - common wisdom is they use the crit chance of the originating spell, hence all the shiradis looking for 20% kinetic lore items. It'd be somewhat annoying to test from the combat log since crits aren't properly marked in the log, but certainly doable.
    Last edited by cdr; 09-07-2013 at 12:42 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    So I went and spent a few minutes with Warlock Sobrien and pasted some combat logs into excel. This data is far from perfect - in particular crits make some things hard to count - but it's actual data.

    And it clearly proves that maximize / empower metas do affect shiradi damage procs.
    Cool test, nice job. One more test would be nice, if possible. It would be nice to know if active empower / maximize work for spells that don't have it active. That is, would empower / max boost the damage when they are turned on, but the magic missile is individually set not to use those.

    Just wondering if this is the last nail in the coffin for sorcerer being competitive DPS vs. wizards.

  5. #5
    I <3 DDO wey4lust's Avatar
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    Default

    Well it was kinda obvious that max/emp work on shiradi, spell power affect proc easy to notice by just getin off spell power item, and max/emp just rise spell power now (150/75)
    Godscraft / Godcraft / Millusia / Judet / Vvi - Orien

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  6. #6
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    It occurred to me that dividing crits in half (since crit multiplier is fixed at +1.0 now) would be better than excluding them. I updated the OP with the new numbers and they're almost exactly the same. Crit-excluded numbers are reproduced below.

    Code:
    Total nonmeta sonic procs	60
    Total meta sonic procs		38
    Sonic nonmeta noncrit mean dam	236.33
    Sonic meta noncrit mean dam	364.45
    Sonic difference		1.54
    	
    Total nonmeta force procs	54
    Total meta force procs		40
    Force nonmeta noncrit mean dam	689.20
    Force meta noncrit mean dam	822.64
    Force difference		1.19

  7. #7
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    No free lunch on metas with procs. Results indicate metas have to be on for the originating spell.

    2 runs, same general conditions as previous tests.
    Global max + empower toggle on, Magic Missile max + empower local toggle "always off".

    Code:
    Total globalmeta sonic procs		73
    Sonic globalmeta noncrit mean dam	218.58
    Sonic difference normalmeta vs		1.60
    Sonic difference nonmeta vs		1.10
    	
    Total globalmeta force procs		50
    Force globalmeta noncrit mean dam	746.19
    Force difference normalmeta vs		1.14
    Force difference nonmeta vs		1.02

  8. #8
    Community Member Thoden's Avatar
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    Default So, in English that means...

    Sorry, bear with me, I'm kinda slow. That means for maximum bangfor the buck, we should use metas on regular spells as well as SLAs?

    Archi Medes (W16/Mnk2/FVS 2/Ep8; PL:W) Balladeer Blackcloud (Bd17/C1/F2/Ep5) Techmech (A20; PL:Rng x3/Monk x3/Druid x3)

  9. #9
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoden View Post
    Sorry, bear with me, I'm kinda slow. That means for maximum bangfor the buck, we should use metas on regular spells as well as SLAs?
    You will get more damage if you meta spells - with metas on you can see I was getting about 50% more sonic proc damage and about 15% more force proc damage. Sobrien requried 2/3 of the missiles = 33% faster kill, though that's MM only - more normally if casting half MM SLA and half MM, it'd be more like 16% faster for me.

    "Bang for the buck" is a different matter - a max+empowered MM is very expensive, even if you invest full AP into efficient meta enhancements. My metaed runs used about 2000 more SP than non-metaed, but I don't have any efficient meta enhancements at the moment.
    Last edited by cdr; 09-07-2013 at 01:40 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Good jorb. By the way, it's not all anecdotal. Teth tested it out, I did too as well as shade (but shade probably didn't understand the math .

    One thing claimed by teth is that shiradi crits are based on the crit type of the originating spell. That's one thing I'm not sure about. It is probably easier to test after U19 with crit differences between elements being greater.

  11. #11
    Community Member Thoden's Avatar
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    Default Humm

    So, I should meta my SLAs AND my regular spells? Bleh, I was enjoying not using so many damn pots!

    Archi Medes (W16/Mnk2/FVS 2/Ep8; PL:W) Balladeer Blackcloud (Bd17/C1/F2/Ep5) Techmech (A20; PL:Rng x3/Monk x3/Druid x3)

  12. #12
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Good jorb. By the way, it's not all anecdotal. Teth tested it out, I did too as well as shade (but shade probably didn't understand the math .
    Unfortunately, testing it out doesn't accomplish too much for other people unless you post the data somewhere where people can find it. You and or/teth posted in a lot of the threads I found, but it was your opinion (backed by testing or not) vs other people's and someone reading the thread wouldn't come away very convinced one way or the other.

    Edit: Made a quick attempt at determining the effect of lore; was defeated because of the difficulty of determining crits from the combat log. Would require more careful setup and data collection. I may make a new try in a few days.
    Last edited by cdr; 09-07-2013 at 08:12 PM.

  13. #13
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    Default

    told ya so

  14. #14
    Community Member Zotze's Avatar
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    Default

    Still no new calcs?

    Only question i have, if it would work with max/emp if i turn them general on, but the MMs on Always off. Someone told me that the procs will still get the bonus of max/emp. but the spells will still have the normal costs.
    Dont wanna waste feats for max/emp for nothing... have it acutal not, so i cant test for myself.
    - Proud Officer of Decameron / Cannith -

    Zangesh qui Clades (Lvl.28), Fire Shiradi Sorc - Bladeforged 14 Sorc / 4 FvS / 2 Pala
    (3xPL Wizard, 1xPL Sorcerer | Epic Completionist 3x Colors of the Queen, 3x Fast Healing, 3x Engery Criticals, 3x Brace, 3x Skill Mastery, 3x Doubleshot, 1xDoublestrike)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Laladi (Lvl.28), Khopesh+Shield Pally - PDK 20 Pala
    (Heroic Completionist | 3x Colors of the Queen, 3x Doublestrike, 2x Enchant Weapon, 2x Power over Life and Death)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Zindragh Zornbinder (Lvl.28), Shuricannon - Drow 20 Monk
    (1xPL Fighter, 3xPL Monk, 1xPL Rouge | 1x Colors of the Queen, 2x Doublestrike, 1x Doubleshot)
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    Aibus (Lvl.28) Tank - Purple Dragon Knight 13 FvS / 6 Pala / 1 Fig
    (1xPL Monk, 3xPL Pala)

    - man nannte ihn Zangesh qui Clades -

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