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  1. #1
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    Default Turbine Devs and the Direction of Doom

    Turbine have tried to extend DDO's use-by date by simplistically increasing the level cap. This is quite simply the wrong way to go. Increasing the level cap leads to inflation, and we can see this already.

    Top level bosses already have absolutely ridiculous HP totals, and I'm sure by level 30 epic elite we'll be hitting bosses with seven digit HP numbers. Bigger numbers does not equate to cooler it just makes killing things insufferably tedious.

    Peoples' carefully farmed snicker-snees and gew-gaws are now worthless junk compared to random trash. So all of the hard work people put in has now been completely undermined.

    What do I think they should do instead?

    The stand out strength of DDO for my money is TRing and I think that more effort should go into encouraging TRing. You get past life feats, and wonderful they are. You can get completionist and that's extra cool too.

    But there are so many other variants:

    Rewards for different lives with different races (corresponding completionist).
    Access to PC races or Prestige Classes that have TR prerequisites (this would involve actual honest to goodness prestige classes, not an enhancement based kludge)
    Prestige Class/Race past-life feats.
    Items with neat extra abilities that are unlocked by past-life feats or that receive an increment every time they get put into a TR bank.

    In short, rather than constantly moving the finishing line further and further away, stick with what you've got and make it richer and broader.

  2. #2
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    I could get behind a few of those ideas.

  3. #3
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    The stand out strength of DDO for my money is TRing and I think that more effort should go into encouraging TRing. You get past life feats, and wonderful they are. You can get completionist and that's extra cool too.
    What about those of us who don't WANT to TR? Or don't LIKE the idea of TRing? I enjoy leveling my character up, seeing new places with them, finding fun new ways to play out character builds. The idea of just TRing the same character over and over is a complete, utter dead fish to me. I have absolutely zero interest in it.

    Now, you want them to add stuff that REQUIRES that?

    How about adding stuff that requires NOT having TR'd? How well do you think that would go over with the TR crowd? They'd throw a screaming fit, for good reason.

    TRing is a completely optional system, and should stay that way. Tying new prestige lines, items, classes, etc to it would turn a lot of people off, myself included. Especially since it's telling people "here, you can get this new shiny, but you thought farming for that rare item was a chore? Ho ho ho, you ain't seen NOTHING yet, padawan! Get ready for six to eight months of non-stop grinding to re-level your character over and over! Unless you want to shell out lots of money for exp pots, tomes, etc, eh? *waves cash shop*"

    Yeah, no thanks.
    Last edited by Lorianna; 09-11-2013 at 12:28 AM.

  4. #4
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Sounds good to me

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    What about those of us who don't WANT to TR? Or don't LIKE the idea of TRing? I enjoy leveling my character up, seeing new places with them, finding fun new ways to play out character builds. The idea of just TRing the same character over and over is a complete, utter dead fish to me. I have absolutely zero interest in it.

    Now, you want them to add stuff that REQUIRES that?

    How about adding stuff that requires NOT having TR'd? How well do you think that would go over with the TR crowd? They'd throw a screaming fit, for good reason.

    TRing is a completely optional system, and should stay that way. Tying new prestige lines, items, classes, etc to it would turn a lot of people off, myself included. Especially since it's telling people "here, you can get this new shiny, but you thought farming for that rare item was a chore? Ho ho ho, you ain't seen NOTHING yet, padawan! Get ready for six to eight months of non-stop grinding to re-level your character over and over! Unless you want to shell out lots of money for exp pots, tomes, etc, eh? *waves cash shop*"

    Yeah, no thanks.
    Some people choose to support this game with, you know, money.

    Also, some people don't really get invested in a character until it has a few lives under it's belt.

    To each their own?

  6. #6
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncleblue View Post
    Some people choose to support this game with, you know, money.

    Also, some people don't really get invested in a character until it has a few lives under it's belt.

    To each their own?
    I've probably sunk $1000 into DDO over the last four+ years. I still have no desire to TR.

    And yes, to each their own. Which is why you shouldn't add stuff that REQUIRES one play style or another. Better they focus on adding things that support the majority of playstyles, rather than catering to specific groups.

    Again, what do you think the reaction would be if they added new prestige lines, classes, etc, that had the requirement of "cannot have TR'd"?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    I've probably sunk $1000 into DDO over the last four+ years. I still have no desire to TR.

    And yes, to each their own. Which is why you shouldn't add stuff that REQUIRES one play style or another. Better they focus on adding things that support the majority of playstyles, rather than catering to specific groups.

    Again, what do you think the reaction would be if they added new prestige lines, classes, etc, that had the requirement of "cannot have TR'd"?
    So don't use that stuff... seems simple to me.

    I mean, what do you care if you do not have the best gear?

    It's not like you are maximizing your character (you don't TR).

  8. #8
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncleblue View Post
    So don't use that stuff... seems simple to me.

    I mean, what do you care if you do not have the best gear?

    It's not like you are maximizing your character (you don't TR).
    Clearly you're just not grasping what I'm saying.

    Let me say it again, really plainly -- adding things like what the OP said:
    Rewards for different lives with different races (corresponding completionist).
    Access to PC races or Prestige Classes that have TR prerequisites (this would involve actual honest to goodness prestige classes, not an enhancement based kludge)
    Prestige Class/Race past-life feats.
    Items with neat extra abilities that are unlocked by past-life feats or that receive an increment every time they get put into a TR bank.
    ...is a bad idea. A new race that's unlocked by TRing? New prestige classes? Items with "neat extra abilities?" This isn't about "minmaxing" the character. It would be adding new stuff to the game that people might want to try out, but FORCING them to have to TR to get it.

    Again, let's say they added all the above, but the requirement was "you cannot access this if you have TR'd your character". You think that would go over well? Or do you think there would be a (justifiable) hue and cry from a good chunk of the players?

    <edit> Or how about this. They add a bunch of new dungeons, with unique mechanics, new gear with "neat new abilities", access to new classes/races once you gain faction with the group that gives the quests, etc. But any character who'd TR'd was automatically locked out of the dungeons. It just wouldn't give them the quest. People would throw a giant s**tstorm over that. For good reason.
    Last edited by Lorianna; 09-11-2013 at 12:58 AM.

  9. #9
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncleblue View Post
    So don't use that stuff... seems simple to me.

    I mean, what do you care if you do not have the best gear?

    It's not like you are maximizing your character (you don't TR).
    As an example - I have 3x barb, fighter, monk, pally, bard and arti PL's, one of each PL and completionist - monk will be my final life.

    Exactly what use will x2 wizard, x2 cleric or x2 druid PL do? (I don't use hires.)

    Characters aren't maximized by endless TRing, only specific PL's will help.
    I'd rather have the best gear than irrelevant PL's.

    No, TRing should not be the endgame. It should be a way to boost a char (to an extent), but not the endgame. I personally do not enjoy running the same content again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again - a lot more times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    No, TRing should not be the endgame. It should be a way to boost a char (to an extent), but not the endgame. I personally do not enjoy running the same content again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again - a lot more times.
    I'm not suggesting it should be the same content and that's the whole issue. The problem with DDO's direction is that instead of making low level stuff more interesting with greater options and different adventure paths. All the new content is being tacked on the end. In my opinion, that's NOT where it's most useful. Ultimately you're going to run out of levels.\ at some point and you're going to have to bite this bullet anyway.

    I'm also not suggesting you should PL lives that aren't useful to you but there are mechanisms for extending the range of PLs that ARE useful to you (race & prestige class PLs spring to mind)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Clearly you're just not grasping what I'm saying.

    Let me say it again, really plainly -- adding things like what the OP said:


    ...is a bad idea. A new race that's unlocked by TRing? New prestige classes? Items with "neat extra abilities?" This isn't about "minmaxing" the character. It would be adding new stuff to the game that people might want to try out, but FORCING them to have to TR to get it.

    Again, let's say they added all the above, but the requirement was "you cannot access this if you have TR'd your character". You think that would go over well? Or do you think there would be a (justifiable) hue and cry from a good chunk of the players?

    <edit> Or how about this. They add a bunch of new dungeons, with unique mechanics, new gear with "neat new abilities", access to new classes/races once you gain faction with the group that gives the quests, etc. But any character who'd TR'd was automatically locked out of the dungeons. It just wouldn't give them the quest. People would throw a giant s**tstorm over that. For good reason.
    So, Favoured Souls and Artificers are only available if you either (a) pay for them or (b) TR right? And in both cases it's not just TR you have to achieve specific things before TRing to unlock them.

    I'm not suggesting anything new here. From this precedent there is an obvious qualitative distinction between accessing adventures and accessing character classes/races.

    On a more general note, just because someone does not agree with you doesn't mean they didn't understand what you said. You thinks it's a bad idea. okay. The devs obviously don't - they already did it - twice. And the predicted swell of outrage has already subsided.

  12. #12
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    I'm not suggesting it should be the same content and that's the whole issue. The problem with DDO's direction is that instead of making low level stuff more interesting with greater options and different adventure paths. All the new content is being tacked on the end. In my opinion, that's NOT where it's most useful. Ultimately you're going to run out of levels.\ at some point and you're going to have to bite this bullet anyway.

    I'm also not suggesting you should PL lives that aren't useful to you but there are mechanisms for extending the range of PLs that ARE useful to you (race & prestige class PLs spring to mind)
    I wasn't talking to you in regards to what you quoted. Completely different issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    So, Favoured Souls and Artificers are only available if you either (a) pay for them or (b) TR right? And in both cases it's not just TR you have to achieve specific things before TRing to unlock them.

    The devs obviously don't - they already did it - twice. And the predicted swell of outrage has already subsided.
    You do not need to TR to use either on an alt.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    What about those of us who don't WANT to TR? Or don't LIKE the idea of TRing? I enjoy leveling my character up, seeing new places with them, finding fun new ways to play out character builds. The idea of just TRing the same character over and over is a complete, utter dead fish to me. I have absolutely zero interest in it.

    Now, you want them to add stuff that REQUIRES that?

    How about adding stuff that requires NOT having TR'd? How well do you think that would go over with the TR crowd? They'd throw a screaming fit, for good reason.

    TRing is a completely optional system, and should stay that way. Tying new prestige lines, items, classes, etc to it would turn a lot of people off, myself included. Especially since it's telling people "here, you can get this new shiny, but you thought farming for that rare item was a chore? Ho ho ho, you ain't seen NOTHING yet, padawan! Get ready for six to eight months of non-stop grinding to re-level your character over and over! Unless you want to shell out lots of money for exp pots, tomes, etc, eh? *waves cash shop*"

    Yeah, no thanks.
    I don't recall suggesting TRing should be mandatory. You don't want to TR? Don't. You won't be any worse off.

    People who TR will be better off, but they already are and that doesn't bother you at all. Why does it bother you that they can be even more better off?

    A player puts in a lot of effort to TR and to keep the lower-level portions of the game active, populated and full of experienced/skilled players. You don't think they deserve something for their efforts while you farm whatever high-level stuff you want?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    You do not need to TR to use either on an alt.
    Cogent point, but you still have to slog back through the low level content either way. This can't be such an onerous task given how many people manage it.

  15. #15
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    Cogent point, but you still have to slog back through the low level content either way. This can't be such an onerous task given how many people manage it.
    It is boring as all hell. I do it because there's no endgame.
    If there was no TRing and we could just swap classes, I'd be so much happier. (Assuming we had an endgame)

  16. #16
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    time to get useful pl for a toon: 3x each (melee/arcane depending) + completionist

    with so u'll have run less than 40 times each quests (3*13 + last life), now that toon can get whatever shiny you like, as it was a 1st life toon, and be simply better, same gear, but better

    how many times need you to run the same quest to get that gear? pretty sure that more than 40 times

    so:

    if u get better stuff, and u need less runs, dunno why do u say tr isn't endgame in ddo

    if u think that endgame is "the highest lvl quest/raid ingame" u're doing wrong, endgame is "the best stuff/shiny i can get for my toon", it can be a raid as used to be, or a quest like is now

    can't understand why ppl complains about gear becoming obsolete, is quite surreal, for keeping busy "power gamers" (or those who play highest lvl/diff) they must add better stuff, here and in every mmorpg, when they release new content, new trash is better than old named, here and in every mmorpg

    will they nerf pl when they release new classes/races? no need to, just need to give the new stuff better pl, u won't lose what u have, simply u'll want to get the new thing

    about classes/pre recquiring tr? is like releasing a content than can play only ppl from XXX country, is plain dumb, classes/pre than cannot tr from/into? same as before, restricting the access to your stuff of some of your customers only will make em have a bad opinion of you (check iconic heroes, tr'able in u20, was quite obvious for me before the release, wasn't for u?) and aslo will make less money

    the only thing that turbine should do with old stuff, is increase a BIT the drop, or that content may die(and the sales associated too)

    so if u grind XXX quest for YYY stuff, u get what u wanted, be the 1st having it, don't think u want to use during 2 years the same item, u would leave prolly before, also u know if have no time for the grind, someday will be able to get it with better chances ^_^u XD
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  17. #17
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiller67 View Post
    So, Favoured Souls and Artificers are only available if you either (a) pay for them or (b) TR right? And in both cases it's not just TR you have to achieve specific things before TRing to unlock them.
    As Soul said, you don't have to TR to use either one once you've earned it. Nor do you have to TR in order to access what makes them available.

    I'm not suggesting anything new here. From this precedent there is an obvious qualitative distinction between accessing adventures and accessing character classes/races.
    Actually, you ARE suggesting something new -- that things be unlocked solely through a system that, up until now, has been completely optional. The moment you start locking content behind that, you open up a can of worms to lock all sorts of other content behind various playstyle gates because instead of it being optional, it becomes mandatory if you want to access this new content.

    As I said, what if they were to create a bunch of dungeons that you couldn't access if you'd TR'd? They just wouldn't let you in at all. This would infuriate a lot of people, and it wouldn't "just subside", because it would be a permanent lockout for people until they spent money to make an alt that hadn't TR'd yet. This would NOT go over well, and it would make a lot of people drop the game.

    On a more general note, just because someone does not agree with you doesn't mean they didn't understand what you said. You thinks it's a bad idea. okay. The devs obviously don't - they already did it - twice. And the predicted swell of outrage has already subsided.
    He honestly didn't seem to be grasping why I was pointing out the problem with it. Especially when the response was "Well just don't use it if you don't like it." He was missing the point.

    Gating content behind the TR system would be a serious mistake. Much like gating content behind a lack of TR would be. Or creating content that only drow could access. Or only half-elves. Or only humans.

    The devs aren't dumb. They're not going to create content that arbitrarily locks out a large chunk of the playerbase. Doing so would shoot themselves in the foot. While it might be an interesting idea in theory, in practice it would be extremely bad.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    As Soul said, you don't have to TR to use either one once you've earned it. Nor do you have to TR in order to access what makes them available.



    Actually, you ARE suggesting something new -- that things be unlocked solely through a system that, up until now, has been completely optional. The moment you start locking content behind that, you open up a can of worms to lock all sorts of other content behind various playstyle gates because instead of it being optional, it becomes mandatory if you want to access this new content.

    As I said, what if they were to create a bunch of dungeons that you couldn't access if you'd TR'd? They just wouldn't let you in at all. This would infuriate a lot of people, and it wouldn't "just subside", because it would be a permanent lockout for people until they spent money to make an alt that hadn't TR'd yet. This would NOT go over well, and it would make a lot of people drop the game.



    He honestly didn't seem to be grasping why I was pointing out the problem with it. Especially when the response was "Well just don't use it if you don't like it." He was missing the point.

    Gating content behind the TR system would be a serious mistake. Much like gating content behind a lack of TR would be. Or creating content that only drow could access. Or only half-elves. Or only humans.

    The devs aren't dumb. They're not going to create content that arbitrarily locks out a large chunk of the playerbase. Doing so would shoot themselves in the foot. While it might be an interesting idea in theory, in practice it would be extremely bad.
    I wasn't missing the point, you were being condescending. I still disagree with you. I don't think you understand MY viewpoint, but I don't have the time to explain it to you.

  19. #19
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    Default The completionist feat

    I believe that one way to encourage people to TR would be to auto-grant the completionist feat. Allow it to be granted as soon as the character has reached a past life for every class.

    I know there will be naysayers to this idea, but, in my opinion, it is counter-productive to require a completionist to sacrifice a feat slot for something that has already been earned through arduous perseverance. I know, too, that there are passive feats that are auto-granted for each past life. Some are nice to have, but, depending on one's final class, many passive feats do not help much. An auto-granted completionist feat ought to be the capstone achievement for completing the task.

    Likewise, when they decide to add Epic TRing, I would recommend that whatever benefit one gets be auto-granted.
    Treachery wears many masks, but none so treacherous as the mask of virtue.

  20. #20
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    First OP you need to ask yourself what percentage of players TR. And of those who do, who actually do it because it is a fun way to play rather then something they feel forced to grind out for the sake of a halfway competent character in the current end game. As is not at all unknown on these forums is the current point of contention that is the DC needs of spells to be seen as viable to use rather then a waste of time,mana, and a party slot. I see quite frequently on Gland EE groups deny any DC caster not possessing the full kit of past lives. Thus showing that content itself has started to lose sight of TRing as an optional system.

    However TRing is a huge let down and turn off to many players. Myself included. Every character I have ever TRed has ended up shelved very quickly, usually before lvl 7. Its not the XP so much as the constant feeling of loss, of having thrown away a perfectly good character in persuit of something that might be better, but still does not ease the loss of an old and fondly remembered character.

    What I think you OP like, and want more then anything is to make TRing more active to increase the pop since its well known most TRs wont run with pugs of non TRs who want to take things slow and actually see and revel in content for the first time. However I dont think TRing was ever a good idea and infact one of the first critical fumbles turbine made.

    I still say to this day they need to instead look towards the now lost city of heroes and their exemplar/sidekick system (Virtue For Life) which made a character always viable to play in any content at any lvl which made pugging and teaming up with friends with radically differing play cycles easy and enjoyable.

    If for example TRing let one build a portfolio of lives, and one could step into them, and then use somekind of negative lvl debuff to dumb down so they could run low lvl content without completely one siding it( not like that doesnt happen now with twink gear alone) I think TRing would be alot more appealing as instead of killing off an old friend it would be actually stepping into a new life while having a link to the old.

    The simple fact is TRing hurt this game for alot of players like myself who whenever we do try to use it end up almost instantly regretting it and the character we threw away.

    Honestly its due to the inept failing of the LR 20 heart and its inability to let people with 3 classes change into something new, or alter their alignment on the boat that forced a TR out of me recently to try and save a capped toon that was utterly ruined in the enhancment pass. However TRing him, losing all the earned bank space and bag space, all the favor lost. since I loathe grinding favor it is a far larger detriment to me then some others seem to feel it is.

    So OP I can understand why a habitual TR junkie might want even more perks, but as always one must consider is the dev energy you ask to be spent going to help enough players to justify how it may offend other portions of the player base. I personally want nothing made that is not universally applicable to all, hence an annoyance that the realms access is locked behind pay for content, and I have seen some ingame who bought the new expansion not understanding they have to also have realms access from the other expansion. Making entire regions of the game and future expansions gated behind what to newer and newer players will seem a hidden gate fee is bad imo as well.

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