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  1. #41
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Someone is missing the point here. Ransack isn't worth it in any quest. Comparing ransack with traps just shows that you are not really running quests with the purpose of speedy completions for maximum XP/minute.

    In a discussion about how a player hates a particular character class the objective is to get the pain over with as quickly as possible. That means hurry up and finish, get the XP, move on.

    Speed running for XP does not include ransack, it does not include trapping bonuses. The number of quests that do include trapping bonuses will depend somewhat on what your particular list of quests happens to be. But, for me, that is 6 quests total on the old list pre U19.

    Post U19 it will probably drop to 4 quests due to the way the repetition penalties now work.

    You can always find quests where you can get the trapping bonus. But doing so feeds right back into my main objection -- running those quests is almost always taking you away from the primary mission of XP/minute.

    Here a while back Turbine changed the random drops out of breakables. Any idea why they did that? Had something to do with the fact that there are all these breakables in quests but nobody takes the time to break them. If you've paid really close attention when the change was first made the drop rates were particularly high. Now, not so much so (although the loot is still, usually, better than it was).

    Now, why do you think auto spot and fast search/disable was added? It is because everyone understands that nobody bothers to disable traps. Turbine's thinking is that if they make it faster maybe they can con people into actually using the skill.

    And, TBH, in most situations that is fine. Just not in this situation where the OP asks for a paladin past life in the least painful way. That least painful way is to go 9 monk/11 paladin and TR. The faster he gets 9 monk the faster he gets thru the 11 paladin. And that means the faster he can TR.

  2. #42
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    I get what you're saying, if you're just after the PL, you're just looking to zerg through your life as quickly as possible. I'm saying that trapping, in the appropriate quests, actually improves your total XP/minute, and will lessen your overall PL zerg time. It increases your XP/min on many quests over not trapping.

    Also, keep in mind that you cant just look at XP/min from when you zone in a quest to when you complete it. There's downtime between quests that increase your total-time-to-TR; you cant simply jump instantly from one quest to the next as though they were all Deneith Sewers. Improving your XP total gained while you're actually in a quest lessens the effects of time lost while you're going between quests.

    Eg, lets assume you run 2 quests, each taking 15 mins, for 10,000 XP (numbers purely arbitrary). That's 666 XP/min. If it takes you 1 min to disable enough traps for an extra 500 XP: 10,500/16 min=656, you've reduced your XP/min, apparently. But now consider you also spend 20 minutes during that play session NOT in a quest - moving, loading, AH, guild buffing, chatting, vendoring, crafting, consulting DDO Wiki, whatever. Your total XP/min for the play session is 20,000 XP/50 min=400. If you'd spent the 2 extra minutes to disable traps, you'd have 21,000/52=403.

    Obviously not a big difference with the arbitrary numbers I just came up with, but it demonstrates the effect. If you're not hardcore grinding in quests every moment you're logged on with a character, it may pay to trap - and the more casual you are, the more it pays.

  3. #43
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Through sheer coincidence I was about to TR into a trap capable character when we had this conversation. I made a note of which quests I thought it was worthwhile to get the traps for until I realized that my target audience of unconvinced people was probably in the low single figures.

    What's worth trapping or not does depend slightly on whether you're a race with nothing is hidden, your base speed through a quest, your AoE capabilties and access to invisibility.

    For my purposes, I was a drow with Nothing is Hidden (which I think is an obvious enhancement to take on any trapping build through the heroic levels then removing it for epics or TRing).

    Nothing is Hidden removes the 2.5 second search animation, meaning you're just looking at 2.5 seconds for the disable device animation (slightly less if you're good at pulling away just before the animation finishes).

    I'll add thoughts on many of them since looking just at the numbers isn't super informative if you're not intimately familiar with the quest:
    As a rule, traps are almost always worth doing if they're on the path you're on anyway.

    2 general scenarios for bravery bonus runs:
    #1 -
    10% aggression, 50% tome of learning, 50% bravery, 80% first time elite, 100% base, 10% flawless, 10% no-reentry= 310% exp... if that's unfair, hurl abuse.
    2 traps for 10% is 5 seconds. So:
    10 + 50 + 50 + 80 + 100 + 10+ 10 + 10 = 320.

    Traps will be worthwhile if:
    320% total xp / 10% traps = 32.
    so 5 seconds x 32 = 160 seconds = 2 minutes 40 seconds.

    If a quest with 2 traps for 10%, even first time elite, takes longer than 2 minutes 40, it's worth doing the traps.

    #2 -
    10% aggression, 50% tome of learning, 50% bravery, 80% first time elite, 100% base, 10% flawless, 10% no-re-entry = 310% exp... again, if that's unfair, hurl abuse.
    1 trap for 8% is 2.5 seconds. So:
    10 + 50 + 50 + 80 + 100 + 10 + 10 + 8 = 318.
    318% total xp / 8% traps = 39.75
    so 2.5 seconds x 39.75 = 99.375 seconds = 1 minute and 39 seconds.

    If a quest with 1 trap for 8%, even first time elite, takes longer than 1 min 39, it's worth doing the traps. Even for literally the very first time on elite.


    If you're getting ransack or conquest, then your time is going to be over 3 minutes and that's a near-guarantee traps will be worth it.

    Also, that's on Bravery. If you're farming anything with something resembling a trap, then don't be silly.


    The list:

    Level 2:
    -Kobold's New Ringleader (1 - 8%) <-- the fire trap near the end. Absolute no-brainer to do it even assuming a perfect zerg. I don't think it's possible to do sub-2 minutes, so yep.
    -Durk's (1 - 8%) <-- Worth it if you know you are still fast enough to kill the 2nd chieftain and get to the safe spot before the oozes catch up and frustrate your recall process. On Elite it's fine; on Normal, weirdly, the slower response time of the oozes makes this harder so I wouldn't do it.
    -Smuggler's Warehouse (2 - 10%) <-- Yuck, I know. But if you're doing the ruby hunt since you're one-and-done-ing anyway it's a no-brainer.
    -Retrieve the Stolen Goods (1 - 8%) <-- Worth it. Gross quest chain though since you have to 'protect the crate' which is hard now too.


    Level 3:
    -WW Pt 1 (2 - 8%) <-- First acid trap, then first fire trap. The final trap is too out of the way and involves opening a door.
    -Cats Pt 2 (1 - 8%) <-- The 'master key' spikes. Obviously worth it.
    -STK Pt 1 (2 - 10%) <-- The spike traps near the end. It's a long-ish quest and again a no-brainer.

    Level 4:
    -Stolen Signet (4 - 15%) <-- If you're doing it, the acid traps near the beginning are worth it due to the quest's length. You can not disarm the 2 easily avoidable traps later and still get the full bonus.
    -Tangleroot Pt 3 (2 - 8%) <-- Worthwhile on numbers alone, but also is faster than throwing things at the hobs from the ledge below, and safer than just bouncing through too.
    -Depths of Darkness (1 - 8%) <-- Depends on speed and if you've aggro'd the hobgoblins behind the secret door.
    -Depths of Doom (2 - 10%)* <-- The second trap is slightly out of the way, near a mushroom, but the quest is longish so still worth it.
    -Proof is in the poison (1/2 - 8%) <-- This thing is a marathon (and therefore trapping is obviously worthwhile). Disarming just the fire is fine if you know the safe spots for jumping around the spikes below.
    -Bookbinder Rescue <-- Does it matter? You want to disarm these.
    -Reposession <-- Weird optional thing gives you some xp. Reading the dialogue and using reasoning takes similar time to disarming anyway so it's a boost.

    Level 5:
    -Crimson Heart (skulls - map dependent - upto 15%) <-- I think disarm as you go is probably optimal for xp/min.
    -Sanguine Heart (zombies - 5 - 15%) <-- All of them are on the way. 2 to the Right leading to often-spawning Vessel, 1 on the Left leading to often-spawning vessel. 1 near central shrine. 1 other on the way somewhere. Long enough that it's always going to be worth it.
    -Sorrowdusk Pt 4 (1 - 8%) <-- The one after the bridge. The risk of death means this is not worthwhile in Pt 3, but you have to cross it in Pt 4.

    Level 6:
    -Stinkvault's Mine (4 - 15%) <-- It takes like 4 hours. Definitely worth it.
    -Caged Trolls (1 - 8%) <-- Any single one that's on the way will do.
    -Valak's (3 - 10%) <-- Weirdly, this quest, while not great, isn't THAT horrific any more. If you're here obviously do them. Was 7387xp for 12 mins for me.

    Level 7:
    -Bargain of Blood (2 - 8%) <-- Duh.
    -The Tide Turns (2 - 10%) <-- Duh.
    -Tangleroot Pt 10 (2 - 8%) <-- Final Tangleroot. Probably a borderline call if I'm honest, but worthwhile for me since I can't see how to invis-zerg it safely without risking red alert due to the location of the central corridor and key bearers.
    -Taming the Flames (2 - 10%) <-- Duh.
    -The Graverobber (1 - 8%) <-- Duh.

    Not worth it unless you are a very cautious player or going slowly through the quest due to unfamiliarity or your character being a 'late-bloomer':
    -Chamber of Insanity
    -Prove your Worth
    -Purge the Heretics
    -Ruined Halls <-- arguably worth doing for added safety.
    -Mirra's
    -Gwylan's (14 - 15%) <-- safety means I'm always going to do this. Gwylan's is only great xp in a group anyway in which case your sole job is trapping for xp which shoudl be worthwhile.
    -Xoriat (7 - 15%) <-- If you're xp zerging, don't get any traps, invis-jump past the skeletal archers and traps and you should live if you time it well. If you're in a pug demanding you get the optional (all pugs ever), then it's worth it.

    Anyway, that's over 20 quests that I do actually run every life, some of them I even farm like Durk's and Kobold's New Ringleader. These are the point of my argument and sufficient proof that taking trap skills on a TR are worthwhile. I also suspect the traps from Von 3 and the GH walk-ups alone give a few hundred k xp overall but they're outside the argument about trap skills from level 1 or from level 10.

    There are a few extras I don't run unless I'm looking for variety on a PL since one-and-done-ing makes a still very fast TR. I don't rest my argument on that. I appreciate that it's faster to ignore them outright, but as a human, and knowing other people are also human, sometimes it is nice to do other quests, and in those quests I can mitigate some of the xp I lose from not having Bloody Crypt make my eyes bleed.

    I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by continuing this experiment since trapping for xp gets exponentially more worthwhile the longer the quest and the higher the base xp, which also correlate at least somewhat with higher level quests.

    TL;DR Trapping for xp from level 1 is worthwhile on a Past Life. Trapping from a later point, like level 10 or so is also fine, but necessitates 2 entire levels of rogue, removes artificer from the equation, wastes of bunch of skill points precludes UMD.



    On the macro concerns about overall efficiency:
    - Even within a quest, assuming that's the only time playing the game, never wandering between quests, or buffing, or anything like that, the quests I list are still worthwhile. A huge component of even PL zergs is spend not-in-quests and that should be factored into whether trapping xp is worthwhile.
    - Safety. Traps can kill even evasion characters on a 1, or put them into awkward situations.
    - Groups. Often I am in a group that is competent. In those groups I should trap while they go on ahead.
    - Ransack xp penalties. Don't affect trapping bonus. The more you farm Von 3, Kobold's New Ringleader, Durk's, WW, or what have you, the better the static trapping bonus becomes.

    This isn't a remotely balanced debate. I worry that repeatedly posting makes it appear that way, but c'est la vie.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 09-11-2013 at 01:35 AM. Reason: EDIT: Forgot flawless / no re-entries
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
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  4. #44
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Good responses and interesting last couple of posts.

    Regarding time spent between quests, I've never thought about it in that manner. I'm not sure that the argument is particularly persuasive considering the real XP of quests. Still, if that seems a legitimate reason to delay getting in the 9 monk levels then people will no doubt choose that route.

    Regarding the quest list, it really illustrates how differently we go about things. Just starting with the low level quests I would never run Smuggler's Warehouse or Catacombs on a pure XP speed run. Same for Bookbinder, Bargain of Blood.... Well, you get the idea.

    I guess that a lot of it depends on what quests you are choosing to run and why.

    In any case, I still feel that it is not worth delaying the 9 monk levels and that if a person really feels obligated to adding trapping that it is better to add it at L10 in this case. After all, we're talking paladin which is ahead of monk on the past life list. So monk 9/paladin 9/trapper 2 still works for the past life.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Someone is missing the point here. Ransack isn't worth it in any quest.
    Well, it's worth it in VON3. I don't think I've ever seen a VON3 xp speed farm not get ransack.

  6. #46
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Well, it's worth it in VON3. I don't think I've ever seen a VON3 xp speed farm not get ransack.
    i shouldn't bother quoting someone that in the same thread says he's only after xp/min, then says he stops playing to wait for ransack penalty fade, and then keeps saying he's only after xp/min

    actually not sure if that guy is talking about preu19 or has some fanatism with monk 9

    post u19 speed farm means get all optionals (unless breakables, only in 1st run because the daily playthrough and i would avoid it even in some quests too because there're too many breakables lol) asap, as example tear, delera2, delera4, von3, wk, vol, and dunno what more popular speedy quests could i say

    keep in mind that guy forgot the most important thing for his speed xp/min, xp pots, also when was the last time he tr'ed? how many hours did he need? and that stuff that use to say "if no screenshot that never happened"
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  7. #47
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    I skipped thread, so sorry if I'm repeating someone.
    For my paladin past life, I'm going to play a pure wizard and then use +20 heart they gave us :]

  8. #48
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    i shouldn't bother quoting someone that in the same thread says he's only after xp/min, then says he stops playing to wait for ransack penalty fade, and then keeps saying he's only after xp/min

    actually not sure if that guy is talking about preu19 or has some fanatism with monk 9

    post u19 speed farm means get all optionals (unless breakables, only in 1st run because the daily playthrough and i would avoid it even in some quests too because there're too many breakables lol) asap, as example tear, delera2, delera4, von3, wk, vol, and dunno what more popular speedy quests could i say

    keep in mind that guy forgot the most important thing for his speed xp/min, xp pots, also when was the last time he tr'ed? how many hours did he need? and that stuff that use to say "if no screenshot that never happened"
    You don't need to avoid using my name, I'm a big boy and can take criticism.

    Post U19 my habit is to switch between characters when I'm in the mood for just gaining levels. I have 19 characters on 2 accounts. One of those is a mule (at least for now), 1 is parked at level to open content for the others, 2 are at L20+ and could TR but won't because 9 are already on a 2d or later life.

    I don't normally worry about how long it takes to get to L20 because I get side tracked a lot. I build characters just to see if it can be done or I hang out at level cap because I know that the new content will be for epic characters.

    But, when I am needing to get through levels quickly I do what I'll be doing this week, I team up with my son and we run content as fast as we can to get the most XP in the shortest amount of time. This week it will be Gianthold and Vale of Twilight quests on his L13 ranger and my L16 cleric and L14 ranger with me dual boxing. Our purpose will be to level the cleric to L20.

    And, because we cannot play 24 hours a day we will end up taking most of the week gaming in short stretches. I'll get the cleric to L20 so that I can let my son use her while I run some tests in eElite Cabal. After that we will come back to his and my rangers and finish getting them to L20. He will go on and run epic and I will TR.

    So my purposes are a lot different from the OP's. And, with so many characters to work with at any time, if I have a life I don't want to run I just let it sit until I feel like leveling that character. Unlike a lot of players, I'm not stuck with only 3 or 4 choices. Like a lot of players, I have enough alternates that I can pick and choose what I'm going to run.

    My responses to OP are based on the notion of getting through an unwanted life as quickly as possible. But at the end of the day, I really have no investment in whatever they decide to do. I think I said that several times in the thread.

    Neither do I have any investment in what you, or any other reader, might choose. To me it is not worth building with trapping. If that isn't the case for you then build how you want to build. It really won't cause me to lose any sleep at night.

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