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  1. #1
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    Default Need guidance for a pally past life.

    I need some help in building a Paladin. Not because I really want to play a Paladin, but because I want to get 5% healing amp past life feat. I'm not asking for a step by step build, but at least some guidance into what to focus on, etc.

    This would be a second life toon. For the most part, TRing this toon is about all I will be doing for the foreseeable future, so I don't really need a build that is end-game worthy. My first life was a fair approximation of Unbongwah's Tempest Trap-monkey (but I'm going to use the LR+20 to LR him into a Barbarian because I feel the 10 HP from a barb past life is more useful than 2 extra ranged damage and 2 points of elemental resist from a Ranger past life.)

    Since I currently solo exclusively (if running with a plat hireling can be considered soloing), self-sufficiency is a must, which is why my first life was the Tempest Trap-monkey - that play style really suits me. However, with the recent nerfs to stealth and search, that play style may be tough to duplicate in a pally build since Paladins don't get any where near the number of skill points per level as Rangers do.

    I was leaning towards Ellisdee's Evasion Paladin, but I'm not sure that build has enough DPS for a soloist - and in my humble and possibly badly informed opinion, DPS is a bit more important than survivability to a soloer.

    I'm defintely going to take two levels of Rogue to get Evasion. Other than that I don't really know which way to go. I've seen alot of 12 Pal/6 Rog/2 Ftr running around so I'm kind of leaning that way, but don't really know specifics. Or, since 12 Pal won't get me Holy Sword, Zeal or HotD 2, should I go 14 Pal/6 Rog? Or go 18 Pal/2 Rog and just run thru traps and ignore loot in chests I can't open? Obviously, first level would be Rogue, so I'm thinking 2-7 Paladin, but when would I take other levels? Which stats should I focus on and which should I dump? (although I'm a premium player, I have all six +4 stat tomes, p2w ftw Which enhancement lines would I take? Which feats are a must? TWF or THF? Are the Rogue and Fighter splashes going to be enough to overcome the Paladin's abyssmal DPS?

    Teal Deer: Help!

  2. #2
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gate-keeper View Post
    TRing this toon is about all I will be doing for the foreseeable future, so I don't really need a build that is end-game worthy.
    My standard TR just for the past lives build is 9 monk/11 whatever. The 9 monk gives everything really needed to manage heroic content and the 11 whatever becomes the TR class.

    Level to 18 then sit until you XP cap. Take the final 2 levels and TR.

    I suppose the same strategy can be used running favored soul, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, etc. The idea is to run a very forgiving class that you like to play and that you are geared to play and then pile the unwanted class on top of that.

    I go with monk because it is a class I particularly enjoy and that I find easy to play.

  3. #3
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    My suggestion, now with enhancement pass would be 12/6/2 like you commented at. It will give you the PL and will give you a lot of flexibility. Couple things:

    A) Do you have Monk? I know you said you will go Rogue for evasion but Monk gives evasion and two feats at the cost of wearing cloth which isn't horrible in Heroic content.

    B) I would farm the gear you are going to TR into. Thanks to U19 you can have some really nice gear so plan now and it should make your TR life a whole lot easier.

    C) If you do (B) above, skipping locked chests will be a little easier on your conscious. I don't think any locked chests contain "valuable" named loot; none that I can think of. As far as random generated loot, you should have as good as it gets before you start. You lose out on the random "1 and 1000 chance" to open Portable Holes and Tomes but it is a small sacrifice for a single life.

    D) 11/6/3 or 10/6/4 Would be another option as the first 3/4 levels in a class unlocks A LOT in a class tree. 6 Fighter gives you a lot in Kensei (sp?) tree helping out your DPS and needed Feats and 3 Monk/Rogue gives you evasion. Paladin levels (CHR bonus to saves) should make Evasion work at all levels making traps slightly less deadly.

  4. #4
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    I also hate Paladin. I'm also going to recommend a heavy monk splash. In that vein, dismiss this post if you're just not a fan.

    Firstly, build for level 18 not 20.

    12/6/2 isn't a thing in a TR build since you'll TR as soon as you hit 20. Waiting at 18 is also the easiest way to hit 20 due to the larger amount of farmable content and groups willing to accept you still available vs 19 (e.g. 'Running With The Devils' and 'Rainbow in the Dark').

    I don't hate Therigar's idea. 9 Monk / 9 Pally (by 18) would do it.

    If you want traps and UMD, make it 1 Arti / 9 Monk / 8 Paladin (by 18, 10 Paladin by 20).

    1 Rogue instead of 1 Arti is also a reasonable decision, but imo on a soloing PL build, a lever pulling dog > 2d6 Sneak Attack.

    On stats:
    We want decent strength, con, wis, dex, int and cha. Fun. Yay Trapping Paladin Monks.

    Dex: is the defining stat here, as you need a bare minimum for GTWF. Every other stat is adjustable.

    Unfortunately on this build, starting with 15 is required. If you started with 14, your +3 tome wouldn't kick in until 11, which means you would need to take ITWF and GTWF at levels 12 and 15 respectively (since you want them ASAP and they require 17 Dex).

    Sadly, that would leave IC: Bludgeoning high and dry until 18, since the only way to take it at level 9 (given a trapper class at level 1 is the whole point of including one) would be by having levels 2 - 9 all as Paladin... which would be no Monk for far too long.

    So, starting Dex, due to feat and class considerations is 15.

    Str: At least 6. Let's try 6 for now, so it's 14. Level-ups go here since damage and hitting is good.

    Wis: About 6 points (for stunning fist). Let's try 6 for now, so it's 14.

    Con: 6 points for 14.

    Int: 6 points for 14

    Cha: 2 points left, oh well. Do get items though since Lay on Hands, Divine Might, and Pally save bonus all use this. Just every other stat is more important in my opinion - you could pillage Wisdom if you really wanted, but I wouldn't since stunning fist is awesome and your DC will be respectable throughout heroics with a 14 base +4 Tome and Stunning Wraps.

    Summary:
    STR 14 (6 points)
    CON 14 (6 points)
    DEX 15 (8 points)
    WIS 14 (6 points)
    INT 14 (6 points)
    CHA 10 (2 points)
    = 34 points. For 32 points I'd never make this build since you need tomes, but whatever. If you really want,

    Levels:
    1 - Arti (trapper level comes first)
    2 - 10 - Monk (monk = fist damage dice and move speed and evasion and improved evasion = comes ASAP)
    11 - 20 - Paladin (gotta put it somewhere)

    Feats:
    1 - Arti 1 - Stunning Blow EDIT: +Another feat: Luck of Heroes would be my choice.
    2 - Monk 1 - (Power Attack)
    3 - Monk 2 - TWF, (Stunning Fist)
    4 - Monk 3 - Path of Light ( I think? Whatever. Go Dark if you like, but Blur Finisher + Self-Healing)
    6 - Monk 5 - Lightning Reflexes (If you have evasion, I consider this a no-brainer in levelling builds)
    7 - Monk 6 - (Dodge)
    9 - Monk 8 - ITWF
    12 - Paladin 2 - IC: Bludgeoning
    15 - Paladin 5 - GTWF
    18 - Paladin 8 - Empower Healing maybe?

    At level 1 put 1 point into Tumble and 4 into Balance/Jump if you can. If not, whatever.

    At Monk levels until CL 7 you have 4 base + 2 Int bonus + 1 human = 7 skill points. They go on Search / DD / UMD + 1 Concentrate. At CL 7 you get a bonus point to use on one of the million useful skills available. Maybe Heal?

    At Paladin levels you have 2 base + 3 Int bonus + 1 human = 6 skill points. They go on Search / DD / UMD. That's it. At CL 15 you get a bonus point again to play with.

    Healing will mostly be wands/pots, but you have nice Shintao Amp and Fists of Light. Eventually you have paladin levels too. Evasion should be fine, though do get an "Infused Chaosrobe" with "Uncanny Awareness" for Reflex + 10 saves from level 14 onward. It's brilliant.

    And Fin. There. The best past-life paladin build ever to grace these forums.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 09-06-2013 at 02:56 AM.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    All of my builds are grossly out of date. Just roll a human or drow mechanic / assassin rogue thing.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  5. #5
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    go 10 pally 8 fighter 2 rogue (8-8-2 at 18) to get that damm kensei tree maxed (that's the nice deal, because pally trees suck, if u go tank whoever are a good deal)

    14 int base for no fail and have enough points for dd+search (some tome would be nice, at least +2 lol)

    2 rogue lvls, at 1 for skills ofc and at 13 to recover that difference between search/disable and umd (now umd will be half point behind search/disable, if u have a +4 int tome that difference will continue til end, that means u can do every heroic trap in game and umd heal scrolls w/o trouble)

    13 str for PA
    14 con because u're cool
    18 cha because u wanna be a sexy pally drow, and have a huge bonus to saves, gajillion charges of dm, holy retribution, turn undead (which u can spen in these 2 and more stuff) is cool

    also dm isn't as strong as before, true, but u don't need more than 4 pally lvls to get it maxed, so dunno why don't take benefit of it, just hit 20 in my 1st pally life(had to do 14-4-2 so can craft the damm holy swords for next life, next one will be 10-8-2 w/o doubt)

    so leveling would be something like

    1 rogue, PA
    2 fighter, cleave
    3 pally, weapon focus
    4 pally
    5 pally
    6 pally, force of personality (now u have turn undead, so gajillion charges of everything)
    7 fighter, great cleave
    8 fighter
    9 fighter, weapon specialization
    10 fighter
    11 fighter, ic
    12 fighter, thf
    13 rogue, now u have almost same umd than search/disable (with ur cha that means no fail on heal, gh, etc)
    14 fighter, greater weapon focus
    15 pally, ithf
    16 pally
    17 pally
    18 pally, gthf, bank til 20, then 19-20 pally

    the thf line isn't a big deal, between boosts, dm, rage, and that stuff (use em while cleave/g cleave are on cd) u'll be quite busy and stuff will die quite fast, so if u wanna change thf line for something like toughness, magical training(hey, 80 sp and 5% crit and echos of power, isn't that bad XDDD) and empower heal or whatever u like, will be fine, don't expect from a "50% damage of weapon + 10% of chance to trigger special effects" to save ur a$s when surrounded by h0es

    most important, be drow, be sexy, smash their heads with style XDDDD

    btw, i used (and i'm gonna use in next life too xD) a greataxe, whatever u use, be thf and everything of same style (slashing in that case) so ur feats an kensai foucs work 100% XDDD

    about enhancements... i would worry about divine might when u hit 4 pally(so it last 4 mins) and rest would go filling kensai while getting the right feats, then back to pally, etc etc

    drow enhancements... i would take only first 4 cores for the +2 cha, also lvl ups in cha, whatever in cha!!!XDD so u hit 50 str at lvl 18(with divine might ofc),something like 19-20-dunno charges of everything, 40+ saves etc etc. that stuff makes u a sexy drow, too

    btw almost forgot it, hope u noticed ur skill points go to search+disable device, umd when hitting 13, and that 3 skills all the way, don't really need concentration when u smash stuff like a minibarb (but have more healing amp and str)
    Last edited by psykopeta; 09-06-2013 at 03:18 AM.
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  6. #6

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    Maybe an 8/8/2 build? Monk/Pally/Fighter or Monk/Pally/Rogue?

    One thing to consider: As a TR-only build (and a second life at that, as opposed to legend build) the stuff that doesn't get good until level 16-18 is kind of meh for you. That kind of back-loaded power is for running epics.

    In other words, pally healing is probably not going to be a huge part of your pally life even if you build for self-healing. Pallies don't get cure moderate wounds until level 10, cure serious at 15. (Zeal @ 14.)

    Monk is a good suggestion; lots of self-healing there. Ranger gives lots of devotion for a healing monk finishing move if you want to go lightside, which still gets lots of sneak damage thanks to the enhancement pass. And monks get a nice sneak damage strike that makes whatever mob you hit with it take sneak damage for up to a minute, The strike has a 3 second cooldown and minimal ki cost so it's easily spammable.

    Something like 10/9/1 pally/monk/ranger (final @ 20) with 8/9/1 pally/monk/ranger being the 18 build. The level order would be ranger @ 1, followed by 9 monk levels (racing to improved evasion) and ending with 10 straight paladin levels.

    At level 15 you could even seal your soul to be immune to level drain if you wanted, but empty hand mastery would probably be better.

  7. #7
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    go 10 pally 8 fighter 2 rogue (8-8-2 at 18) to get that damm kensei tree maxed (that's the nice deal, because pally trees suck, if u go tank whoever are a good deal)

    14 int base for no fail and have enough points for dd+search (some tome would be nice, at least +2 lol)

    2 rogue lvls, at 1 for skills ofc and at 13 to recover that difference between search/disable and umd (now umd will be half point behind search/disable, if u have a +4 int tome that difference will continue til end, that means u can do every heroic trap in game and umd heal scrolls w/o trouble)

    13 str for PA
    14 con because u're cool
    18 cha because u wanna be a sexy pally drow, and have a huge bonus to saves, gajillion charges of dm, holy retribution, turn undead (which u can spen in these 2 and more stuff) is cool

    also dm isn't as strong as before, true, but u don't need more than 4 pally lvls to get it maxed, so dunno why don't take benefit of it, just hit 20 in my 1st pally life(had to do 14-4-2 so can craft the damm holy swords for next life, next one will be 10-8-2 w/o doubt)

    so leveling would be something like

    1 rogue, PA
    2 fighter, cleave
    3 pally, weapon focus
    4 pally
    5 pally
    6 pally, force of personality (now u have turn undead, so gajillion charges of everything)
    7 fighter, great cleave
    8 fighter
    9 fighter, weapon specialization
    10 fighter
    11 fighter, ic
    12 fighter, thf
    13 rogue, now u have almost same umd than search/disable (with ur cha that means no fail on heal, gh, etc)
    14 fighter, greater weapon focus
    15 pally, ithf
    16 pally
    17 pally
    18 pally, gthf, bank til 20, then 19-20 pally

    the thf line isn't a big deal, between boosts, dm, rage, and that stuff (use em while cleave/g cleave are on cd) u'll be quite busy and stuff will die quite fast, so if u wanna change thf line for something like toughness, magical training(hey, 80 sp and 5% crit and echos of power, isn't that bad XDDD) and empower heal or whatever u like, will be fine, don't expect from a "50% damage of weapon + 10% of chance to trigger special effects" to save ur a$s when surrounded by h0es

    most important, be drow, be sexy, smash their heads with style XDDDD

    btw, i used (and i'm gonna use in next life too xD) a greataxe, whatever u use, be thf and everything of same style (slashing in that case) so ur feats an kensai foucs work 100% XDDD

    about enhancements... i would worry about divine might when u hit 4 pally(so it last 4 mins) and rest would go filling kensai while getting the right feats, then back to pally, etc etc

    also spend 13 ap if u want in mechanic tree for 75% effect on wand/scrolls, +3 saves vs traps, +3 disable and +3 search

    drow enhancements... i would take only first 4 cores for the +2 cha, also lvl ups in cha, whatever in cha!!!XDD so u hit 50 str at lvl 18(with divine might ofc),something like 19-20-dunno charges of everything, 40+ saves etc etc. that stuff makes u a sexy drow, too
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  8. #8
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Firstly, build for level 18 not 20.
    That is the whole idea when building to TR. When you build for the purpose of getting a past life in you only, ever, build for L18. Then you sit there until you've got the XP for L20, take the last 2 levels and TR.

    Taking artificer or rogue for 1 level isn't a bad idea. I appreciate the idea behind artificer at L1. I also stack all the monk levels up front and then put the TR class at the end. The reasons for this are simple -- monk gives some bonus feats, evasion and improved evasion, all of which I want as early as possible.

    Comments others are making about benefits of the paladin class or fighter kensai or any other thing are just ways to get off track. When building explicitly for the purpose of a past life there is no need to look at those things because the character isn't sticking around long enough to justify them. A build that is just looking to get in a past life needs to stay focused on how to get in 20 levels as fast and painless as possible.

    This is why I go with 9 monk/11 whatever. For me monk is an easy class to play with more benefits than any other class given my way of playing. I also prefer half-elf with cleric dilettante in order to access wand and scroll use. I personally don't feel that the benefits of being able to handle traps justifies the addition of artificer or rogue to the mix. I can use a hire to pull levers (arty dog) and with high reflex saves the character doesn't need to worry about traps.

    From a leveling standpoint the XP bonus for trapping usually doesn't justify the time spent and the time used to get 10 levels is longer than the time spent getting 9. I want 9 levels of monk so that I have all of the basic needs covered and can start in on the past life class without being distracted.

    So, if I were going to go with the artificer/rogue suggestion I would actually take rogue at L10. This runs counter to common thinking but my feeling on this is that I want the 9 monk levels as fast as possible, trapping is of limited XP benefit, hires can do any switch pulling (arty dog replacement), so if I'm going to get distracted from my goal the time to allow it is at L10.

    Since I'd be waiting until L10 to take the trapper class that means I would want rogue instead of artificer in order to get the most skill points. I'd need the skill points to back fill search and disable. And, of course, I'd always be playing catch up with these skills -- although gear could help mitigate some of the lost skill points as could skill tomes.

    IMO, however, being distracted with the trapper class just makes things unnecessarily cluttered. Trapping isn't needed at heroic levels, the character will never run epic content, so just stay focused on the end objective.

    Anyway, that's my perspective on it and why I suggested 9 monk/11 whatever as the way to get in past lives when players are just leveling to 20 and then taking the TR.

  9. #9
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    You're all doing it wrong

    2 Rogue/18 Pal is all you need, straight up 2HF melee cleaver. STR, CON, CHA. Evasion with DG, and the following in your attack chain:

    Cleave +1W, AOE (6 sec cooldown)
    Great Cleave +2W, AOE (6 sec)
    Bleed Them Out: +3W, stacking DOT (6 sec)
    Shiv: +3W (12 sec)
    Sly Flourish: +1.5W, +3 Crit Range (12 sec)

    with Venomed Blades: +1d8 on every attack

    All you need for DPS as a THF is right there in /2 Rogue, with Cleave/GC and the THF feats. Shiv and Sly Flourish don't interrupt your attack chain (at least not on my own Rogue THF stickfighter), so you can basically alternate Cleave/GC/BTO every other attack (first attack always gets glancing blows), with a Shiv and Sly Flourish thrown in between for extra damage, and of course Smites.

    Especially for Heroic, all you need is a toolbox of high-damage attacks to spam, and enough defense/heals to stay alive. Rogue gives you the former, Pally provides more than enough for the latter.

    edit: ah, good (if humorless and condescending) point from the poster below. Barb was just an afterthought anyway, the Rogue toolbox is still solid. If you wanted to be even more exotic, you could toss in /2 or /3 Barb, too...Rages, and more THF enhancements for glancing blows. plus some defense through Occult Slayer to make up for the AC you lose going light-armor THF.
    Last edited by droid327; 09-06-2013 at 01:01 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    If you wanted to be even more exotic, you could toss in /2 or /3 Barb, too...Rages, and more THF enhancements for glancing blows. plus some defense through Occult Slayer to make up for the AC you lose going light-armor THF.
    This is the reason you don't take advice from whoever has access to the forums and a keyboard.

    Barbarian and Paladin can never be multiclassed together.

    It isn't us who are "doing it wrong."

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    This is the reason you don't take advice from whoever has access to the forums and a keyboard.
    That's mighty stringent criticism from a guy who just said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    All of us "experts" are just opinionated talking heads with different takes on the game and on what makes a successful character.
    Maybe you should take your own advice before you start looking at everyone else's? :P

  12. #12
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    That's mighty stringent criticism
    Yet deserved.

    Everyone is entitled to opinions and the point about talking heads is that the forums are filled with posters who don't have a real clue about the game or legitimate reasons for their perspectives.

    The post I criticized points this out exquisitely.

    No need to take offense at that or to pretend that the criticism wasn't warranted.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Maybe you should take your own advice before you start looking at everyone else's? :P
    You suggested splashing barb on a paladin.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    My standard TR just for the past lives build is 9 monk/11 whatever. The 9 monk gives everything really needed to manage heroic content and the 11 whatever becomes the TR class.

    Level to 18 then sit until you XP cap. Take the final 2 levels and TR.

    I suppose the same strategy can be used running favored soul, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, etc. The idea is to run a very forgiving class that you like to play and that you are geared to play and then pile the unwanted class on top of that.

    I go with monk because it is a class I particularly enjoy and that I find easy to play.
    Slight thread hijack, but hopefully it'll help the OP too if they're interested.

    What did/do you do for Barbarian Past Lives?

    Like you I do the whole 9 Monk/11 Past Life Class. In my case it's a pretty easy decision to make because I'm getting the Past Lives for my Monk.

    My Stumbling block is Barbarian. The extra HP would be nice, but Barbarian is my idea of hell. Take big stick and hit on head. Ugh.

    I'm leaning somewhat towards something like 6 Druid/6 Rogue(or something)/8 Barb and play as a druid wolf or something...

    Thoughts?

  15. #15
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Oh I wasn't going to respond since I figured this thread was done, but recommending taking a single rogue level at 10 is awful advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    That is the whole idea when building to TR. When you build for the purpose of getting a past life in you only, ever, build for L18. Then you sit there until you've got the XP for L20, take the last 2 levels and TR.
    Hahaha I taught you that! In here! When you weren't doing that less than a month ago!
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nger-Past-Life
    Surreal. Suffice to say I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Taking artificer or rogue for 1 level isn't a bad idea. I appreciate the idea behind artificer at L1. I also stack all the monk levels up front and then put the TR class at the end. The reasons for this are simple -- monk gives some bonus feats, evasion and improved evasion, all of which I want as early as possible.
    Sure, but a 1 level delay isn't a big deal and the OP wanted something similar to tempest trapmonkey. Trap skills, if you can fit them only losing a single level's delay is an obviously good decision. Von 5 Pugging / Shadow Knight (where the trap xp is worthwhile) / the odd handful of quests that are mildly unpleasant without a trapper make it worthwhile to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Comments others are making about benefits of the paladin class or fighter kensai or any other thing are just ways to get off track. When building explicitly for the purpose of a past life there is no need to look at those things because the character isn't sticking around long enough to justify them. A build that is just looking to get in a past life needs to stay focused on how to get in 20 levels as fast and painless as possible.
    That fighter build is not too bad. I have no doubt it could get to 20 and has undeniably superior dps to the monk option. I much prefer the monk option, but it's not like cleaving / great cleaving for beacoup damage with self-heals from lots of cha-based paladin levels isn't going to be fast too.

    To me, it lacks move speed and that's why I prefer the monk option, but I think the OP could reasonably choose it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    This is why I go with 9 monk/11 whatever. For me monk is an easy class to play with more benefits than any other class given my way of playing. I also prefer half-elf with cleric dilettante in order to access wand and scroll use. I personally don't feel that the benefits of being able to handle traps justifies the addition of artificer or rogue to the mix. I can use a hire to pull levers (arty dog) and with high reflex saves the character doesn't need to worry about traps.
    Ok. I'm just not sure what you think you're losing by adding trapping capacity. Am I being unfair in suggesting it's just the 1 level of delay you're fretting about?

    Oh, and H-Elf Cleric Dil is a lot of AP, which is fine if you don't have the option of UMD. But this build does for the minute sacrifice of one level's delay on monk abilities.

    Also, hirelings are the worst. They add scaling, you can't summon them as needed at levers unless you're springing for gold seals. They mess up pulls and stealth and invis if you're dragging them through the dungeon. I am not on board with hirelings being on close to on par with summon-and-dismiss-at-will arti dogs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    From a leveling standpoint the XP bonus for trapping usually doesn't justify the time spent and the time used to get 10 levels is longer than the time spent getting 9. I want 9 levels of monk so that I have all of the basic needs covered and can start in on the past life class without being distracted.
    Sure. Agreed that in most quests trapping isn't worthwhile. In the few it is though, it's pretty cool. It's also a free entry to a lot of pugs if you get bored of soloing. "Being distracted" isn't close to an actual con.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    So, if I were going to go with the artificer/rogue suggestion I would actually take rogue at L10. This runs counter to common thinking but my feeling on this is that I want the 9 monk levels as fast as possible, trapping is of limited XP benefit, hires can do any switch pulling (arty dog replacement), so if I'm going to get distracted from my goal the time to allow it is at L10.
    Yuuuck. I'm unsure how you conceive of 14 or so points being enough to cover search and disable device since at level 10 that's all of your points to bring only 1 of them up to speed. Playing catch-up in Paladin levels is going to mean you're not able to trap reliably until literally 18 or so if that.

    Some of the earlier rubbish like Repossession, STK and Swiped Signet is also where you actually want trapping skills. Behind 1 level behind on 5% less movement speed or .5[1d6] is just not very significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Since I'd be waiting until L10 to take the trapper class that means I would want rogue instead of artificer in order to get the most skill points. I'd need the skill points to back fill search and disable. And, of course, I'd always be playing catch up with these skills -- although gear could help mitigate some of the lost skill points as could skill tomes.
    You need gear anyway for trapping on a non-int based character. I really think Rogue at 10 is an irredeemably poor choice. Skill tomes... yeah... They don't kick in until the same level as stat tomes would, so you're looking at +3 from 11 - 15 and +4 from there till cap.

    Making the enormous and unlikely assumption that this character has +3 and/or +4 Search and Disable Tomes available is probably wrong, but also won't suddenly vault his trapping skills into viability after 9 levels of neglect and not taking a trapper class at level 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    IMO, however, being distracted with the trapper class just makes things unnecessarily cluttered. Trapping isn't needed at heroic levels, the character will never run epic content, so just stay focused on the end objective.
    What is this 'cluttered' nonsense? You need:
    -Search on your hotbar
    -Thieves Tools
    -A Search Item
    -A DD Item
    -An Int Item
    That's it. Is that honestly worth factoring into a calculation about whether it's worthwhile?

    I can't begin to conceive of how 'being distracted' could factor into taking trapping skills or not so I won't try as it would probably be offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Anyway, that's my perspective on it and why I suggested 9 monk/11 whatever as the way to get in past lives when players are just leveling to 20 and then taking the TR.
    Yeah. Okay. I personally would have just admitted that I was wrong and slotting in a level of trapper makes a ton of sense on this build.

    EDIT: In no way taking away from the fact I think that's a terrible recommendation, taking 2 rogue levels back to back at 10 and 11 would actually fix the massive trapping skills deficit and still net a Paladin Past Life at 20 since 9/9/2 still results in a Pally life as Monk, like FvS, Artificer and Druid, is special and comes afterward.

    I still much prefer the 1 Arti option obviously since a 1 level delay on Monk abilities from Character Levels 1-10 is nothing and you get a dog and UMD, but a second rogue level would make this H-Elf Cleric Dilettante suggestion marginally less ludicrous.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 09-06-2013 at 09:11 PM.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You suggested splashing barb on a paladin.
    And you thought files installed themselves pre-fragmented :P we all make mistakes lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Oh I wasn't going to respond since I figured this thread was done, but recommending taking a single rogue level at 10 is awful advice.
    It is awful advice. I just wouldn't bother with the trapper part at all. It doesn't serve any purpose and derails the single-minded pursuit of getting thru L20 and hitting the TR.

    All I'm saying is that if a person has to have the trapper part I would not take it at L1 because it slows getting to monk 9.

    Here's my thinking on this. People ask for advice all of the time about how to get an unwanted class to L20 so that they can immediately TR. Then people offer advice about how to build a character that will stick around and play some. But, the goal state is to just burn through XP as fast as possible and move on.

    All of the added things that go into a character take you off track. Can you heal, forget your XP quest and come help with this quest over here. Can you trap, forget your XP quest and come help with this other quest over there.

    I just feel that every extra thing that you add in to the build just encourages you to use it in lower XP quests, to delay or go slower in quests, and so on. If the real goal is level and reincarnate then just stick to that. The number of high XP heroic quests that need trap skills is zero. The number where it might be more useful than not is maybe two.

    So why get distracted? I think you should not. If others think they should, or want to, that's fine. I just don't see that it is really needed.

    As for the holding levels at 18, you take too much credit. The ranger discussion ran far afield from the simple task of getting to L20 and TRing. It probably should not have and I'll take blame for letting it. But, that was a different discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    What did/do you do for Barbarian Past Lives?
    There are 2 classes where monk/whatever cannot work -- barbarian and bard. I have not done either of these lives and I don't have any good answers for you.

    Because I don't like caster classes I'm leaning towards rogue 2/something. I run a rogue/bard and it isn't bad so I could easily settle in there for bard. Barbarian is another issue. I might look at something like rogue 2/fighter 8/barbarian 8(10).

    But, I haven't gotten there yet so really don't have a good answer for you.

    Edit:

    Just had a thought based on something I posted in a different thread. One barbarian solution might be fighter 10/ranger 8. Hold L18 and then when you have the XP for L20 take it to become fighter 10/ranger 8/barbarian 2. Now use a +5 LR to get to barbarian 7/fighter 7/ranger 6. Immediately TR and you'll have the barbarian past life.

    This would work for me because I like melee characters. Fighter and ranger give enough synergy. Could even be cleric instead of ranger for self heals and buffs.

    The reason this works is because past life is determined by the following if the levels are equal: 1) original classes in alphabetical order and then 2) new classes in the order they were added.

    Because B for Barbarian is before F for Fighter (or C for Cleric) this would work.
    Last edited by Therigar; 09-06-2013 at 11:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Hahaha I taught you that! In here! When you weren't doing that less than a month ago!
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nger-Past-Life
    Actually, if you'd paid attention, I offered the exact same advice in the other thread regarding a 9/11 split:

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    One more thing, if you are only looking for the ranger past life I would seriously consider monk 9/ranger 11. Build and play as a standard monk build with WIS and DEX for AC, plenty of dodge, etc.
    As I said, the 12/4/4 discussion went far afield from the original discussion there. And, the need to discuss holding XP at L18 wasn't really necessary as the discussion wasn't in the New Player forums like this one is. Meaning that you can nit pick that I didn't mention it but I don't think I really need to have said it in the build forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    All of the added things that go into a character take you off track. Can you heal, forget your XP quest and come help with this quest over here. Can you trap, forget your XP quest and come help with this other quest over there.

    I just feel that every extra thing that you add in to the build just encourages you to use it in lower XP quests, to delay or go slower in quests, and so on. If the real goal is level and reincarnate then just stick to that. The number of high XP heroic quests that need trap skills is zero. The number where it might be more useful than not is maybe two.

    So why get distracted? I think you should not. If others think they should, or want to, that's fine. I just don't see that it is really needed.
    Including trap skills where you lose barely anything is a good idea. I'm astonished that your 2 arguments:
    - you'll get distracted, and,
    - trapping isn't THAT good
    have convinced even yourself.

    I'll share my trick for not getting distracted into doing inefficient things for xp that include trapping and randomly joining a party to play healer: "don't."

    This argument that you should purposely avoid giving your character additional abilities so you don't get 'distracted into using them inefficiently' is going to make for some truly sub-optimal TR builds.

    If you were gaining something more than a minute increase in move speed 1 level earlier, or more than .5[1d6] I would leave this alone, but it's a terrible philosophy for building a PL build. You should be as good as possible at every level upto and including 18 - saying 'no trapping' because then I might trap and it might be inefficient is an extraordinarily harsh judgment about a player's decision-making abilities.

    Note though, I don't care overly much about trapping. Most of my TRs skip it, but if I can include it without losing much I obviously do.

    XP wise, Trapping is good for:
    STK part 3, Shadow Knight, Coal and Von 5 when solo. Probably others, maybe not.

    When in a party, trapping is good xp in:
    every single quest with traps which is about half the game.

    I appreciate that's out of the scope of discussion for this single build if it actually will do nothing but solo, but I find even for primarily solo characters that's seldom the case.

    Trap skills also increase safety in a bunch of decent xp quests like FoF, Foundation, Cry, Sane Aslyum, Monastery and a few others.

    It's inconceivable to me to argue that including trap skills lowers xp efficiency. I've seen Mr. Cow's threads where he always got the trap bonuses and concluded it wasn't worthwhile as a rule. Sure.

    But often it is worthwhile for safety or xp. Either because it's one of a handful of quests where it's good xp solo, or any time you're in a party, or any time the trap is dangerous.

    This is too long again, but I'm actually trying to convince you, which hopefully is not a mistake.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    All of my builds are grossly out of date. Just roll a human or drow mechanic / assassin rogue thing.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

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