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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Oh I understand that stuff happens. I just don't understand how, barring natural disaster, they stay down for 2-3 days after stuff happens.
    I don't think they do. It was under 24 hours.
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  2. #42
    Community Member xXbikergirlXx's Avatar
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    Smile Dev Tracker!!

    Just a quick point, when the game is down, my first goto info point is the Dev Tracker, o.k. so other people were bringing the info to the forums.....BUT....there was no info in the tracker so no DDO confirmation of forum members info being correct....just a message confirming accuracy of info would have saved a lot of people a lot of time!!
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  3. #43
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Also, for perspective, the average VIP subscriber is paying $10/month (some $15, some $8). For that average $10/month person, a 1.5 day outage is 50 cents worth of service.
    ^^ This, right here, is why I am not bothered in the least by the outage. Yes, I am VIP (again). Yes, I have previously been quite vocal in my criticism of Turbine. However, in this case, the only thing I would have liked would have been better communication from them. I did visit their Facebook page and their Twitter account (once each) because it was easy to get to those and because those pages pertain to DDO. If they want to extend my subscription by a day, I can't stop them - but I would rather they didn't because eventually it's going to screw up the timing of when I get billed relative to my paydays (and that synchronicity is of greater importance to me than a free day here, a free day there); and, no, I was not terribly keen on the 2 or 3 free days I got back in February either for exactly the same reason I don't want a free day now.

    EDIT: Now, if their servers are down for a couple weeks or longer, then getting re-imbursed for that time becomes significant and moving the day my payment for VIP is due is an acceptable consequence.

  4. #44
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Incorrect. It did NOT come from an official Turbine source. It was quite literally hearsay. If the Sapience had come here in an official capacity, then yes, but that's not how it went down. It may have SEEMED unnecessary to copy/paste, and in fact a mere copy/paste would have added to your error. Your responsibility was to get the relevant info from the source, in the same way that Sapience did, and pass it on to us in a timely way. If there is a breakdown in comms on Turbine's end which prevented you from acquiring this info, then that's a hole that needs to be sewn up; also your responsibility. Whatever thought process went on on your end to make it OK to ignore that responsibility is irrelevant.
    It would have been hearsay without the link.

    With the link they were pointing you at the first person official statement.

    While I agree that Turbine, as usual, bungled communications, you are getting silly here.

  5. #45
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golruul View Post
    Your analogy is better, though. When I want to ship something, I pay UPS/Fedex to ship the package. If I paid for the next-day-air service and a blizzard prevented the package getting delivered the next day, then they didn't provide the service I paid for. It's irrelevant whose fault it is that the package didn't get delivered on-time -- it is their responsibility to ensure the package gets delivered on-time. In this case I would (and actually did) get a refund. When I got the refund, I wasn't hassled at all. They took the tracking number, checked that it didn't arrive next-day as I paid for, and gave me a refund. This is a reasonable response from UPS/Fedex.
    Sure it certainly is. Notice UPS is responsible, not the company who sold the product that did not get delivered. If you want to try and sue the provider for your missed DDO play time, good luck.


    Quote Originally Posted by golruul View Post
    However, it doesn't matter because the service they were paid to do wasn't done.

    As a VIP, I pay Turbine to play DDO. This is another service that's paid for. For 1-2 days, the service wasn't available. It's irrelevant how/why the service was unavailable and also irrelevant whose fault it is. .
    So if your ISP went down, Turbine is still responsible to somehow let you connect to their servers and play?

  6. #46
    2016 DDO Players Council Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    DDO was unavailable for the better part of 24 hours over the holiday weekend. A response from Turbine is overdue:

    1. Has the problem been fixed so it won't happen again? Unexplained downtime is not a retention strategy. Communicate with your customers.

    2. What compensation is forthcoming for VIP/veteran customers?
    The Kobolds powering the network all banded together due to unfair working conditions and bad pay, as a result they went to The Foreman who then promptly organized a strike of the Kobold workforce. A deal is on the cards hence service has commenced once again but there is still a lot of heated discussion between Turbine and The Union.

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  7. #47
    Community Member Cleanincubus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXbikergirlXx View Post
    Just a quick point, when the game is down, my first goto info point is the Dev Tracker, o.k. so other people were bringing the info to the forums.....BUT....there was no info in the tracker so no DDO confirmation of forum members info being correct....just a message confirming accuracy of info would have saved a lot of people a lot of time!!
    Exactly!!!

    When there is an issue, I'm not going to read every single thread on the forum, about the same exact, widespread problem. I'm going to immediately go to the Dev Tracker, and read what a Developer or Community Manager has to say. I read only those specific posts, unless a post directly below it happens catch my eye. Why would I waste my time sifting through all that bickering & complaining, bickering & complaining, and more bickering and more complaining? So if it's not written by a Turbine employee, or at least quoted by a Turbine employee, I don't usually see it.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    More that the info was posted here dozens of times by folks who discovered it over there and immediately brought it over here. They worked faster than me, and since the cause was being widely distributed, and came from an official Turbine voice, it seemed unnecessary to copy/paste it here myself.
    the thing is when a turbine employee posts something more players take note of it. you pop up on the dev tracker, something i'm sure many forumites were refreshing throughout the day to get updates on the issues. also in a thread your yellow badge stands out. it's easy to miss another players post to the real information in the busy forums, it's also easy to find the dev posts.

    i know it can seem silly, but it would have been worth a copy+paste. sometimes i catch up on an event by following the dev tracker, it's always nice to see a dev give a tip of the hat to players for beating them to the post, but the important part is i'm reading the dev post first not the players post.
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  9. #49
    Community Member The_Rev09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood View Post
    I don't buy it that this is out of Turbine's control. Big players don't have the same 'take it or leave it' contracts us peons get. You would think a multi million dollar company could get these issues figured out. One of the biggest weekends of the year means more people playing which means more money spent - or in this case NOT spent. I'll bet the board of directors is upset - they should be.
    Having worked in networking support for a large provider on layer 1,2, and 3 issues for 12 years, I can tell you that while the size and $$ spent by a company do make a difference, it means nothing when the issue is not something you can't yell your way out of. They can pay to have router blades (or entire backup routers) on site and available, but most large (and I mean LARGE) companies don't go for entire routers, as it would be cost prohibitive to have a spare for every piece of networking equipment, especially if it never gets used because you have a 99.9977% up time. Most pay for 2- or 4- hour on-site hardware replacements, but it doesn't appear that was the issue, more like configuration problems after the fact. I've dealt with Gov't agencies that will yell and scream that they want the part there now, but I can't magically make a router appear on site when they decided not to budget for a spare. Yelling will have no effect on the timeline. Once the part is there, it's up to their guys to get the backup config in place, if they've got one that's current and not corrupt.

    If a company wants to pay, they can have an on-site tech with an entire backup network ready to go, but unless you have unlimited funds, that's not going to happen. And higher-ups are the ones that approve budgets, so they usually get it when they get the service they paid for and not the service they want.

    Again, this is not a Turbine issue, or the vendor they contracted out with, but with a third party.

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    When I do a deal, the people who buy from me want to know the dependencies in my business. They want to know who my providers are and who their providers are. If they are not happy with the provider chain I use for my services, they will not buy MY services
    No company will readily tell their customers where they buy from and much less will the companies they buy from tell them where they in turn buy from. It's inviting bankruptcy, because customers would just directly go to the companies they know their contractor buys from as it increases the profit margin.

    There's a very good reason why customer/provider lists are often considered trade secrets and employees are required to sign NDAs about that specific knowkedge or given compensation to stay quiet about it.

  11. #51
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    More that the info was posted here dozens of times by folks who discovered it over there and immediately brought it over here. They worked faster than me, and since the cause was being widely distributed, and came from an official Turbine voice, it seemed unnecessary to copy/paste it here myself.
    This seems logical until you realize that nearly EVERYONE is looking for an official Turbine post here, confirming or denying it.

    I am in NO WAY complaining about the outage, stuff happens. I'm thankful you guys worked like you did to get things going again, even over a major holiday weekend.

    Just because a bunch of players copied things over from the LOTR forums doesn't mean that we were able to find it, or that we even believed the information. A quick word in the Dev tracker, however, puts things into an easy to find spot where the majority of forum goers look for official word.

    Thanks for reading, and for your posts about it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  12. #52
    Community Member Aliss7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    More that the info was posted here dozens of times by folks who discovered it over there and immediately brought it over here.
    For myself, your prior response was the first time I read what caused the downtime in more detail. I was actually waiting for an official dev tracker post on the downtime and if there would be any compensation or not. So here I am.

    I am savvy enough to know that Sapience from LoTRO is an official representative _for that game_ and that LoTRO is turbine owned, but I didn't catch any of those links to LoTRO's site in my skimming of new posts and dev tracker watching _for this game_. Hard to believe I know, but it's true.

    I had some other comments to make, but I'm thinking I better stop here.

  13. #53
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    People have been linking to Sapience's lengthy explanation over on the LOTRO forums, so I didn't really feel the need to repeat it here, but perhaps it's worth doing so now that a few days have passed. Here's a summary:

    The outages over the weekend were caused by a combination of a routing issue with one of the large Internet backbone providers along with the way that traffic is routed into and out of our data center provider's facilities. The issue created a cascading effect when the routes were reset that did not play well with some of the hardware in the data center. We worked overnight with our vendors to check each step of the connection from our service through the various vendor services we use, and once everything checked out, we reopened the game worlds.
    What would it take to get Sapience over to the DDO side? I really like the way that he communicates with the player base. Also the LOTRO Facebook and Twitter accounts were a much better source for information regarding the outage than any of the DDO related sites (Except the Forum Which Shall Not Be Named which, ironically, got the info from the LOTRO guy.)

    And you seem to love to quote him too. He must be doing something right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Sapience over on the LOTRO side recently [...]

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Sure it certainly is. Notice UPS is responsible, not the company who sold the product that did not get delivered. If you want to try and sue the provider for your missed DDO play time, good luck.

    So if your ISP went down, Turbine is still responsible to somehow let you connect to their servers and play?
    For your first comment, are you even reading what you're writing? Have you ever ordered anything and had it delivered? No, UPS is not responsible in this case. If I buy something from Amazon and it doesn't get delivered, Amazon is responsible for it, not UPS/Fedex. I get a refund from Amazon, not from UPS/Fedex. If I do a chargeback on my credit card because something wasn't delivered, Amazon gets affected by it, not UPS/Fedex. The entity commissioning the shipping is responsible for getting the product delivered to you. YOU can't collect from UPS/Fedex because you never paid them to do anything -- Amazon is the one that paid UPS/Fedex for a service to render. Amazon may try to collect from UPS/Fedex if something doesn't get delivered, but you can't.

    To see how to relates to DDO, replace "Amazon" with "Turbine" and "UPS/Fedex" with whatever ISP. Exact same situation. Bottom-line is that Turbine is responsible for the service they sell. They're not stupid and have enough business sense to realize this and so try to get it fixed. A lot of people on this forum lack common business sense.

    Your second comment is a poor nitpicking troll attempt that doesn't make sense. If my ISP went down, it's my problem and my responsibility. If Turbine's ISP goes down, it's Turbine's problem and their responsibility. All reasonable people would agree to this and I don't know why you even bring this up.

    Did you mean the case of bad routing via Turbine's ISP's peering? It's still Turbine's problem and responsibility, even if they can't directly do anything about it. This case (dependency problem on middleman companies) is common in the business world. Know who in the end is responsible? The company selling the service to its customers.

  15. #55
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    All they'd really have to do is let on which provider is the problem, and the rage would be vented in that direction.

    I'd bet it's a little more complex a situation than Turbine's buck passing would make it seem.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    The DDO terms of service that you agreed to includes the fact that the game will be out of service at times because of things like this.
    ToS contains no such thing. But apparently you've read it, so care to point that out? Here's the link http://www.turbine.com/en/content/du...-terms-service .

    It does mention, however, "In no event shall Turbine be liable for any failure of performance resulting from causes beyond the reasonable control of Turbine". The keyword here is "reasonable". Routing problems a few times and Turbine has no control? Ok, fine, seems reasonable to me. However, if these routing problems occur regularly, then it's no longer reasonable to me. If it's a constant problem, a reasonable course of action would be to insert these routing problems as part of the SLAs Turbine has with its ISP. Escalating like this would then cause the routing problems to become the ISP's problem, at which point they would be very keen to fix it.


    As for the actual cost of the subscription, I don't really care. Bringing lunch to work for one day instead of eating out covers the cost for me.

  17. #57
    Community Member enochiancub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrancisP.Fancypants View Post
    All they'd really have to do is let on which provider is the problem, and the rage would be vented in that direction.
    Highly doubt they'd want to deal with the legal ramifications of naming the company though. It's a keen thought none the less.

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  18. #58
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golruul View Post
    For your first comment, are you even reading what you're writing? Have you ever ordered anything and had it delivered? No, UPS is not responsible in this case.
    I read your post and replied exactly to what you wrote. Perhaps you should read your own post again carefully, and not assume that it says what you meant. So my question is; are you reading what YOU'RE writing?

    You said:

    I pay UPS/Fedex to ship the package
    You didn't say "I bought something from Amazon and paid THEM to ship it to me." You said you paid UPS/Fedex. So if you paid the third party that was supposed to deliver Turbine's service to you, go ahead and apply for a refund. If you paid Turbine to play on their servers with their software, guess what? Their servers did not crash, their software did not bomb. The delivery service did. And it wasn't even Turbine's delivery service, it was a third party. And guess what else? Turbine did what they could, as fast as they could, to work around this blizzard that shut down the roads. They did more than plow their own parking lot. What kind of contingency do you think they should have? Be realistic.


    Quote Originally Posted by golruul View Post
    Your second comment is a poor nitpicking troll attempt that doesn't make sense. If my ISP went down, it's my problem and my responsibility. If Turbine's ISP goes down, it's Turbine's problem and their responsibility. All reasonable people would agree to this and I don't know why you even bring this up.
    It's not nitpicking. You said:

    It's irrelevant how/why the service was unavailable and also irrelevant whose fault it is.
    So how far down the chain is Turbine responsible? Their servers were up. Their software was working. Their datacenter was up. Their own provider was up and running. Beyond that, something went wrong. So if you think that Turbine is responsible for a third party down line from their datacenter and their provider, I was wondering if it would include YOUR ISP as well. Because essentially, it was this exact situation that occurred, except it wasn't your specific ISP, it was someone else's provider. Not yours. Not Turbines. Is that reasonable enough for you?
    Last edited by Fedora1; 09-05-2013 at 02:14 PM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by golruul View Post
    ToS contains no such thing. But apparently you've read it, so care to point that out? Here's the link http://www.turbine.com/en/content/du...-terms-service .

    It does mention, however, "In no event shall Turbine be liable for any failure of performance resulting from causes beyond the reasonable control of Turbine". The keyword here is "reasonable". Routing problems a few times and Turbine has no control? Ok, fine, seems reasonable to me. However, if these routing problems occur regularly, then it's no longer reasonable to me. If it's a constant problem, a reasonable course of action would be to insert these routing problems as part of the SLAs Turbine has with its ISP. Escalating like this would then cause the routing problems to become the ISP's problem, at which point they would be very keen to fix it.


    As for the actual cost of the subscription, I don't really care. Bringing lunch to work for one day instead of eating out covers the cost for me.
    You might want to READ what you are linking:

    LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. IN NO EVENT SHALL TURBINE, ITS PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATES BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO THE GAME AND/OR THE GAME SERVER OR ANY KIND ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO THE GAME AND/OR THE GAME SERVER OR ANY USE THEREOF, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY LOSS OF DATA OR GOODWILL, DISRUPTION OF SERVICE OR CLAIMS OF THIRD PARTIES.
    You experienced a disruption of service, which you agreed they are not responsible for.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by enochiancub View Post
    Highly doubt they'd want to deal with the legal ramifications of naming the company though. It's a keen thought none the less.
    More important than legal issues, they need to be able to work with that company and bad mouthing them publicly might not aid in future cooperation. The company causing the routing problems was publicly outed by players last time around.

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