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  1. #21
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    I hate tanks
    Thanks for your insight Carpone

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    I agree that Glorious Stand is likely not worth it if you are a DPS focused build. You probably are better off going with 15 Paladin levels if you want to primarily be a Paladin. Also if you're running with a group of friends who all have very powerful characters, then chances are you rarely get into trouble, or you have a dedicated healer to keep you healed, then you probably don't need Glorious Stand. I also tanked Horoth many times back when people actually ran TOD, and never needed it.

    However if you're going to run in PUGS, run with people who are not uber power gamers, don't have a dedicated healer at your back, perhaps are short manning or soloing a difficult quest, then it can be very helpful. Everyone's mileage will vary.
    Heh our static group is the exact opposite of "optimal" its a handful of flavour builds which are only somewhat optimized (mostly due to the fact that people are more interested in telling me to remove the flavour as opposed to helping me refine the build) so we could use a strong tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Tanks are unnecessary
    Fixed that for you. It's been true for a long time in DDO. Even when we were farming elite ToD when the cap was level 20, we were using Barbarians to tank because it was more efficient. LOB is arguably the one place where a tank is useful, but even there it was faster to do it with two hearty DPS toons and swap when the debuff gets too high.

    KotC needs to replace the unnecessary evil outsider vs. undead flavor and have it work against all evil creatures. It also needs a worthy tier5 ability, like expanding the crit range/multiplier of your diety's chosen weapon. Holy Retribution needs to scale it's DC so it's effective in epic content.

    Defender needs some action, like a charge/intercept or stunning on a shield bash.
    U19 Kensei: Centered Cleaver | TR Junkie Leveling Framework

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  3. #23
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Fixed that for you. It's been true for a long time in DDO. Even when we were farming elite ToD when the cap was level 20, we were using Barbarians to tank because it was more efficient. LOB is arguably the one place where a tank is useful, but even there it was faster to do it with two hearty DPS toons and swap when the debuff gets too high.

    KotC needs to replace the unnecessary evil outsider vs. undead flavor and have it work against all evil creatures. It also needs a worthy tier5 ability, like expanding the crit range/multiplier of your diety's chosen weapon. Holy Retribution needs to scale it's DC so it's effective in epic content.

    Defender needs some action, like a charge/intercept or stunning on a shield bash.
    Well the thing is a really good tank that can even heal themselves means that you may not need a healing class at all. Yeah I know everyone can heal themselves, but it sure straightens things out a bit. Tanks are also nice for pug groups in really hard raids historically in ddo. That being said no content really is a tank very useful right now - perhaps a really good tank could be a possible what goes up strategy, but there are others of course so what have you.

    Just because you do not play with tanks does not mean others have not played with tanks and completed quests/raids very efficiently in the past in DDO.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Holy Retribution needs to scale it's DC so it's effective in epic content.
    The DC isn't what makes Holy Retribution pointless. It's that it requires and uses turns.

  5. #25
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Carpone not a single class/build is REQUIRED in this game and whilst I agree that if your a soloist/pugger a multi-functional self-suffiecient charcater but in a static group its far more effective to have a balanced party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Carpone not a single class/build is REQUIRED in this game and whilst I agree that if your a soloist/pugger a multi-functional self-suffiecient charcater but in a static group its far more effective to have a balanced party.
    We'll agree to disagree, as I can't remember ever waiting to balance a group before a quest or raid in the past several years. The only thing required in this game is DPS. If it's not solving all your problems, you simply aren't using enough of it.
    U19 Kensei: Centered Cleaver | TR Junkie Leveling Framework

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  7. #27
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Hmmm well seems Rangers a bust now...the devs can't let us have nice things...first they kill the Solar Phoenix Monk/Pally type build now the Pally/Rangers guess the standard Paladin18/Fighter2 is the way to go now unless anyone has any other suggestion for a diff 1-2splash
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  8. #28
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Hmmm well seems Rangers a bust now...the devs can't let us have nice things...first they kill the Solar Phoenix Monk/Pally type build now the Pally/Rangers guess the standard Paladin18/Fighter2 is the way to go now unless anyone has any other suggestion for a diff 1-2splash
    I was totally looking forward to a 1 Fighter / 1 Ranger splash, so the Ranger nerf kinda stinks Oh well, it was pretty overpowered that you could add 75 devotion for just 1 ranger level and 6 APs. Anyways, I think a 2 Fighter splash is one of the strongest splash options for a Paladin tank, though I'm also debating a 1 Fighter splash (19 Paladin / 1 Fighter), just so I can pick up deathward, in addition to cure serious and zeal.

    Here's what I think are the best splash options for Paladin tanks:

    2 Fighter
    -2 Feats
    -Tower Shield Feat (just a convenience so you don't have to bother with master's touch scrolls)
    -Haste Boost
    -Access to Tactic feats (+3 DCs for 7 APs over haste boost 3...kinda pricey)

    1 Fighter
    -1 Feat
    -Tower Shield Feat (just a convenience so you don't have to bother with master's touch)
    -Haste Boost
    -Extra 4th level Paladin spell - 4th level spell list: Deathward, Zeal & Cure Serious Wounds

    1 Fighter / 1 Monk
    -2 Feats
    -Tower Shield Feat (just a convenience so you don't have to bother with master's touch)
    -Haste Boost
    -5% healing amp for 1 AP (Shintao tree with only 1 AP into the 1st core, Bastion of Purity)
    -Annoying icon saying that you're not centered (blah. hate that)

    Personally, I picked up fighter level on my Paladin (16th level at the moment), and LOVE that I did it. Fighter's Haste boost is just awesome against named mobs with too many hit points! I also really like that I don't have to keep casting master's touch, which I would invariable forget half of the time. Oh yeah, and stunning blow is working out very nicely so far, but I'll have to see how it works up at higher levels to advocate taking it.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
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  9. #29
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    I was totally looking forward to a 1 Fighter / 1 Ranger splash, so the Ranger nerf kinda stinks Oh well, it was pretty overpowered that you could add 75 devotion for just 1 ranger level and 6 APs. Anyways, I think a 2 Fighter splash is one of the strongest splash options for a Paladin tank, though I'm also debating a 1 Fighter splash (19 Paladin / 1 Fighter), just so I can pick up deathward, in addition to cure serious and zeal.

    Here's what I think are the best splash options for Paladin tanks:

    2 Fighter
    -2 Feats
    -Tower Shield Feat (just a convenience so you don't have to bother with master's touch scrolls)
    -Haste Boost
    -Access to Tactic feats (+3 DCs for 7 APs over haste boost 3...kinda pricey)

    1 Fighter
    -1 Feat
    -Tower Shield Feat (just a convenience so you don't have to bother with master's touch)
    -Haste Boost
    -Extra 4th level Paladin spell - 4th level spell list: Deathward, Zeal & Cure Serious Wounds

    1 Fighter / 1 Monk
    -2 Feats
    -Tower Shield Feat (just a convenience so you don't have to bother with master's touch)
    -Haste Boost
    -5% healing amp for 1 AP (Shintao tree with only 1 AP into the 1st core, Bastion of Purity)
    -Annoying icon saying that you're not centered (blah. hate that)

    Personally, I picked up fighter level on my Paladin (16th level at the moment), and LOVE that I did it. Fighter's Haste boost is just awesome against named mobs with too many hit points! I also really like that I don't have to keep casting master's touch, which I would invariable forget half of the time. Oh yeah, and stunning blow is working out very nicely so far, but I'll have to see how it works up at higher levels to advocate taking it.
    Oh my god yes that uncentered thing is SO annoying I wish your Ki bar would just grey out or something less "YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG!!!"

    Anyways the 1 fighter is not a convenience since tower shields are considered exotic masters touch doesn't actually grant proficiency with them...or at least it shouldn't if it does.

    I'd say Monk1/Fighter1 is a better combo than fighter 2 since much of the Kensai line is a giant lie in that it needs way more fighter levels than any other prestige tree for most of its abilities due to requiring fighter feats and both get you an extra feat with a single AP granting +5% heal amp....now is it worth the annoyance of the "!" icon and a PITA if I ever want to LR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  10. #30

  11. #31
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Master's Touch grants tower shield proficiency.
    It shouldn't...but w/e not that big of a deal really its minor in the grand scheme of things, besides I still think Fighter 1 is a good splash
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

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