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  1. #1
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Default Pally18/1Fighter/1Ranger or Pally15/PDK4/Ranger1 +1 ???

    The DWS tree has a nice boost to Positive Spell power (+30) so it may be worth it to splash Fighter1/Ranger1 on a Paladin instead of Fighter 2. Alternatively a Pali15/Fighter4/Ranger1 (not sure whether 16 pally, fighter 5 or ranger 2 is best) it all depends on whether glorious stand is any good.

    Here's the two builds I have so far (These are Longsword+Shield+Heavy Armor BTW)

    Code:
    Lawful Good Pally18/PDK2 (Unyielding Sentinel)
    
    Con 16
    Int 14
    Cha 18 (Lvl-ups here)
    
    Skills: Concen, Intim, Balance, UMD, Jump
    
    Level Order: PDK 1, Paladin X - X, PDK X, Paladin X - X
    
    Feats (No Particular Order)
    
    Heroic Feats
    
    F1 Combat Expertise
    F2 ???
    1 Force of Personality
    2 SM
    3 ISM
    4 Shield Deflection
    5 IC: Slashing
    6 Extend
    7 Empower Healing
    
    21 Bulwark of Defense
    24 ??? 
    26 Holy Strike
    27 Blinding Speed
    28 ESP: Positive?


    Code:
    Lawful Good Pally15/PDK4/Ranger1 (Unyielding Sentinel)
    
    Con 16
    Int 14
    Cha 18 (Lvl-ups here)
    
    Skills: Concen, Intim, Balance, UMD, Jump
    
    Level Order: ???
    
    Feats (No Particular Order)
    
    Heroic Feats
    
    F1 Combat Expertise
    F2 Dodge
    F4 Mobility
    
    1 SM
    2 ISM
    3 Shield Deflection
    4 IC: Slashing (primarily Long Swords)
    5 Spring Attack
    6 Extend
    7 Empower Healing
    
    21 Whirlwind
    24 Bulwark of Defense
    26 Holy Strike
    27 Blinding Speed
    28 ESP: Positive?
    Anyone know if Improved Shield Bash is fixed or does it still only work every 6 seconds?
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-30-2013 at 09:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  2. #2
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Hmmmm testing has shown that Glorious Stand only lasts 20s thus making it pointless and losing the only reason to go with more that 14 Pally levels...so I guess 14/4/1 wins...just need the last level which is obviously going to be Ranger 2 since Pally15 and Fighter5 gain nothing.

    Now how AM I gonna work out this level order....It obviously has to start with PDK1 and the ranger levels will likely be one early (somewhere in 2-5ish) and the other taken at the most optimum time to catch up skills that have fallen behind (15-20) so say F-PP-R-PPPP-FFF-PPPPPP-R-PP...IOW PDK pre-req starting level, divine grace, skills unlocked, Sacred defender stance, bonus feats and fighter finished, revival spells added to list woooo, skills caught up, woot zeal, now onward to epic stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    losing the only reason to go with more that 14 Pally levels
    If you're splashing 1 ranger for +75 devotion, then definitely take pally 15 instead of 14 so you get cure serious wounds. (Zeal is the best level 4 pally spell by a country mile, so if you only go 14 pally take zeal and settle for cure moderate wounds.)

  4. #4
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    If you're splashing 1 ranger for +75 devotion, then definitely take pally 15 instead of 14 so you get cure serious wounds. (Zeal is the best level 4 pally spell by a country mile, so if you only go 14 pally take zeal and settle for cure moderate wounds.)
    Hmmm yes I see that you only get 1 Lvl 4 spell with 14 levels now...in that case you most likely get more bang for your buck that way. I'll leave it up to the player but ill suggest Pally15/Fighter4/Ranger1
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  5. #5
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Doesn't pally 15 also give you one more remove disease and smite evil? Depending on your enhancements, that could actually be one more exalted smite, and your remove disease may also be restore/greater restore.

  6. #6
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Dodge/Mobility/SA req's base DEX 13; AFAICT, you dumped DEX on both builds.

    My view is every 2H or S&B build should have Power Atk / CL / GC at a minimum, even (perhaps especially) if you're not going STR-based. DPS is always your first priority on melee builds, even (perhaps especially) if tanking. Can't hold onto aggro if you can't put out enough DPS.

    Also, any tank planning to self-heal w/spells ought to have Quicken at the very least, IMHO.

    Finally, isn't Shield Deflection a PDK tree ability? No need to waste a feat on it in that case.

  7. #7
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Dodge/Mobility/SA req's base DEX 13; AFAICT, you dumped DEX on both builds.
    Yeah I just recently noticed that on my Monk/Kensai build...I gotta fix that...I'm thinking like this

    Dex 12
    Con 14
    Int 14
    Cha 18 (Lvl-ups here)

    Con ends up a little low for a tank imo but the bonus dodge will balance that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    My view is every 2H or S&B build should have Power Atk / CL / GC at a minimum, even (perhaps especially) if you're not going STR-based. DPS is always your first priority on melee builds, even (perhaps especially) if tanking. Can't hold onto aggro if you can't put out enough DPS.
    Whirlwind is > GC no? its a 360 arc with 5{w}

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Also, any tank planning to self-heal w/spells ought to have Quicken at the very least, IMHO.

    Finally, isn't Shield Deflection a PDK tree ability? No need to waste a feat on it in that case.
    Hmmm...so they do...dropping SD for Quicken makes sense to me.


    So with adjustments

    Code:
    Lawful Good Pally15/PDK4/Ranger1 (Unyielding Sentinel)
    
    Dex 12
    Con 14
    Int 14
    Cha 18 (Lvl-ups here)
    
    Skills: Concen, Intim, Balance, UMD, Jump
    
    Level Order:  F-PP-R-PPPP-FFF-PPPPPPPPP
    
    Feats 
    
    1 Shield Mastery
    F1 CE
    3 Quicken
    6 Empower Healing
    9 ISM
    F9 Dodge
    F11 Mobility
    12 IC: Slashing
    15 Spring Attack
    18 Extend
    ED Unyielding Sentinel
    21 Whirlwind
    24 Bulwark of Defense
    26 Holy Strike
    27 Blinding Speed
    28 ESP: Positive
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-05-2013 at 12:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  8. #8
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Whirlwind is > GC no? its a 360 arc with 5{w}
    ONE AoE atk with a too-slow animation (given that it shows a double-spin but only procs a single atk) and has 4 feat pre-reqs (none of which help your DPS); OR the 3-feat chain which gives you TWO AoE atks, opens two more (Lay Waste + Momentum Swing), and includes Power Atk which boosts every atk's dmg? To me it's a no-brainer which is more valuable.

  9. #9
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Hmmmm testing has shown that Glorious Stand only lasts 20s thus making it pointless and losing the only reason to go with more that 14 Pally levels...so I guess 14/4/1 wins...just need the last level which is obviously going to be Ranger 2 since Pally15 and Fighter5 gain nothing.

    Now how AM I gonna work out this level order....It obviously has to start with PDK1 and the ranger levels will likely be one early (somewhere in 2-5ish) and the other taken at the most optimum time to catch up skills that have fallen behind (15-20) so say F-PP-R-PPPP-FFF-PPPPPP-R-PP...IOW PDK pre-req starting level, divine grace, skills unlocked, Sacred defender stance, bonus feats and fighter finished, revival spells added to list woooo, skills caught up, woot zeal, now onward to epic stuff.
    Okay, this will be the last time I say it...Glorious Stand is amazing! I have used it in game to save the day many, many times. It is the #1reason all Pally Defenders should go to at least 18 levels of Paladin. First, you have to understand that Glorious Stand is not an "I Win" button that will make you invincible for an entire fight.

    How to Use Glorious Stand
    When you are in a tough fight, and your hit points are dropping faster than you would like, hit Glorious Stand. For 20 seconds, your incoming damage should be greatly reduced. While Glorious Stand is active, you must pay attention to both your hit points and the timer on Glorious Stand.
    -If your hit points are getting dangerously low, then use a lay on hands on yourself for 200% healing more than normal.
    -If the timer is soon going to expire, hit yourself with a lay on hands for 200% more than normal, to bring your hit points back to full!

    The +100% healing amp is what makes Glorious Stand awesome, as you can easily heal yourself back to full while giving yourself a short breather in a tough fight.

    Hope that helps
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  10. #10
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Hmmmm testing has shown that Glorious Stand only lasts 20s thus making it pointless and losing the only reason to go with more that 14 Pally levels...so I guess 14/4/1 wins...just need the last level which is obviously going to be Ranger 2 since Pally15 and Fighter5 gain nothing.

    Now how AM I gonna work out this level order....It obviously has to start with PDK1 and the ranger levels will likely be one early (somewhere in 2-5ish) and the other taken at the most optimum time to catch up skills that have fallen behind (15-20) so say F-PP-R-PPPP-FFF-PPPPPP-R-PP...IOW PDK pre-req starting level, divine grace, skills unlocked, Sacred defender stance, bonus feats and fighter finished, revival spells added to list woooo, skills caught up, woot zeal, now onward to epic stuff.
    Okay, this will be the last time I say it...Glorious Stand is amazing! I have used it in game to save the day many, many times. It is the #1reason all Pally Defenders should go to at least 18 levels of Paladin. First, you have to understand that Glorious Stand is not an "I Win" button that will make you invincible for an entire fight.

    How to Use Glorious Stand
    When you are in a tough fight, and your hit points are dropping faster than you would like, hit Glorious Stand. For 20 seconds, your incoming damage should be greatly reduced. While Glorious Stand is active, you must pay attention to both your hit points and the timer on Glorious Stand.
    -If your hit points are getting dangerously low, then use a lay on hands on yourself for 200% healing more than normal.
    -If the timer is soon going to expire, hit yourself with a lay on hands for 200% more than normal, to bring your hit points back to full!

    The double healing is what makes Glorious Stand awesome, as you can easily heal yourself back to full while giving yourself a short breather in a tough fight.

    Hope that helps
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    Okay, this will be the last time I say it...
    I love how you say this right before double-posting it.

    And thanks for the info; I've been wondering for a while if GS was "all that." Now I just have to decide if I'm still bothering with "real" pally tanks anymore...

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    -If your hit points are getting dangerously low, then use a lay on hands on yourself for 200% healing more than normal.
    [...]
    The double healing is what makes Glorious Stand awesome, as you can easily heal yourself back to full while giving yourself a short breather in a tough fight.
    Doesn't Unyielding Sovereignty serve much the same purpose for free with only 6 pally levels?

  13. #13
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I love how you say this right before double-posting it.

    And thanks for the info; I've been wondering for a while if GS was "all that." Now I just have to decide if I'm still bothering with "real" pally tanks anymore...
    LOL Yeah. I had a bad Internet connection earlier, so the double post was a mistake, but quite humorous given what I said Anyways, I like playing my Pally tank so I'll keep playing him. I am finding I don't need as much defense as I used to, so I'm trying to get as much DPS in as I can. My leading thought is to go with a 2 Fighter splash for the feats and buying a bit into the Kensai tree (ex haste boost).
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  14. #14
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Doesn't Unyielding Sovereignty serve much the same purpose for free with only 6 pally levels?
    I'm not sure I know what you mean. What specifically are you referring to?
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  15. #15
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    To the OP,

    The 1 ranger splash for the Deepwood Sniper positive spell power enhancement looks interesting. That's a good find! Definitely worth considering
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    I'm not sure I know what you mean. What specifically are you referring to?
    You emphasized that "The double healing is what makes Glorious Stand awesome, as you can easily heal yourself back to full while giving yourself a short breather in a tough fight."

    How frequently can you use Glorious Stand? All level 6 paladins can take unyielding sovereignty for free, which heals 10,000+ hp every 10 minutes, no 20-second double-amp boost needed.

  17. #17
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You emphasized that "The double healing is what makes Glorious Stand awesome, as you can easily heal yourself back to full while giving yourself a short breather in a tough fight."

    How frequently can you use Glorious Stand? All level 6 paladins can take unyielding sovereignty for free, which heals 10,000+ hp every 10 minutes, no 20-second double-amp boost needed.
    That is a good point. I'd run my Paladin as a Half-Elf for so long I forgot about unyielding sovereignty. Still, the reduction in incoming damage for the duration of Glorious Stand is very helpful and just enough time to get through a tight spot. Thinking back to those times, surrounded by a group of mobs along with a red name, all beating on you, the rest of the party in trouble or dead, your hit points quickly dropping, and I've been very happy for a 20 seconds respite where the incoming damage is greatly reduced, all with the comfort that I can heal myself back to full at any time. That gives you time and options to turn things around. It's enough time to pull the mobs away a distance to give the rest of the party some breathing room, enough time to raise a fallen party member, etc.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  18. #18
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Hmmm...the way you describe it and having experience being a Tank myself there's times I really could use a short breather, even with the long cool down that sounds pretty cool...I'd lose 2 feats but honestly I could easily drop the WW feat (and Mobility), I love that feat but its less useful on a tank to be honest.

    Honestly now that I know I can't get anything good out of Kensai w/o at least 8 fighter lvls Pally18/Fighter1/Ranger1 is probably the best bet especially since Haste Boost is a tier 1 ability for Kensai.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You emphasized that "The double healing is what makes Glorious Stand awesome, as you can easily heal yourself back to full while giving yourself a short breather in a tough fight."

    How frequently can you use Glorious Stand? All level 6 paladins can take unyielding sovereignty for free, which heals 10,000+ hp every 10 minutes, no 20-second double-amp boost needed.
    This is what I was thinking until I remembered that FR-Born characters are limited to Amauntor as a Diety...which IMO makes no bloody sense especially if they become a Paladin in Ebberon...maybe they found faith through a local stormreach religion.

    Mechanically its even worse it was annoying enough that the devs limit the amount of available gods to so little now the FR-Borne only have ONE god...little choice -> no choice...yeah.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-06-2013 at 01:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  19. #19
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    Glorious Stand is suboptimal because you have to spend 30 AP in the Defender tree to buy it. If you're spending that much, then you're probably sword and board which is part of the problem. The only place where a tank might be justified is EE FoT, and there's little reason to run it.

    I played a Paladin who tanked all elite/epic raid bosses when the level cap was 20. Glorious Stand wasn't needed then either. It's only use to is take a screenshot of the biggest heal number you can get for the achievement forum.

    I want Paladins to be cool, but they've got a long ways to go. I wouldn't take more than 6 Paladin levels with the current enhancement system. There are so many better class split choices for damage, survivability and soloability.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Glorious Stand is suboptimal because you have to spend 30 AP in the Defender tree to buy it. If you're spending that much, then you're probably sword and board which is part of the problem. The only place where a tank might be justified is EE FoT, and there's little reason to run it.

    I played a Paladin who tanked all elite/epic raid bosses when the level cap was 20. Glorious Stand wasn't needed then either. It's only use to is take a screenshot of the biggest heal number you can get for the achievement forum.

    I want Paladins to be cool, but they've got a long ways to go. I wouldn't take more than 6 Paladin levels with the current enhancement system. There are so many better class split choices for damage, survivability and soloability.
    I agree that Glorious Stand is likely not worth it if you are a DPS focused build. You probably are better off going with 15 Paladin levels if you want to primarily be a Paladin. Also if you're running with a group of friends who all have very powerful characters, then chances are you rarely get into trouble, or you have a dedicated healer to keep you healed, then you probably don't need Glorious Stand. I also tanked Horoth many times back when people actually ran TOD, and never needed it.

    However if you're going to run in PUGS, run with people who are not uber power gamers, don't have a dedicated healer at your back, perhaps are short manning or soloing a difficult quest, then it can be very helpful. Everyone's mileage will vary.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

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