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  1. #1

    Default Please Fix Thrill of the hunt and the borked assassins

    Went in on EN on my half tank (consider fighter and paladin tanks are borked now, I can only get what would be considered stalwart 1ish without going full S&B and bork dps) with something like 88 in PRR.

    First - the enemy assassins can throw their chains around forever. Unless you break contact they won't stop swinging. Try to do that playing that class yourself. You can't swing forever. Must be some kind of ability you get when you're CR 31 or something. This can't be how it's supposed to be. And considering the chain attack actually pierce armor and crit (another silly thing - you can understand piercing armor if you aim for chinks in armor - but flailing a chain around would simply bounce off the heaviest armor and shield).

    I doubt anyone can reasonably say that a flailing chain can do more damage then a massive club or axe. That's just silly and broken.

    Howlers quills - now normally a players stack lasts for something like 6-15 seconds dependent of the effect. And for most part when one stack counts to zero then all stacks go away. Not howler quills. It lasts for a minute or so, stacks up to 10 (or something like that) and damages every single 2 second. That is excessive. On EN I was constantly taking 22 or so in damage every 2 seconds for something like 2 minutes. Keep in mind - that's taking 88 in PRR in account.

    End fight. Massive bork. Again - the boss will stop, swing his chain around and kill everything. I was dumb enough to solo with one idiotic healer hireling - the level 25 one. I say idiotic because all hirelings - including level 25 owl bear, a rogue and the panther all stood there smacking him and died. Because the chain crits like nothing else and he does nothing other then swing the thing around. Then add releasing more of the howlers that will stun you and you're toast.

    I left in disgust. On EN with a really good toon, because the hirelings are not smart enough to stay away from the chain and the chain is terrible as it just continues to swing. And that's all he does. He chase you, makes one attack with daggers then stand still and swing forever until you break contant. Over and over and over. Then the howlers come, stun and kill you.

    This is perhaps the worst and most boring mechanic I've ever encountered in this and many other games. It's not hard it's just terribly tedious. Especially since in the many years I've played this game the hirelings remains as dumb as always.

    In fact the level 25 hireling didn't even bother trying to heal himself. He kept trying to cast heal mass and kept interrupting himself. And since Turbine have not blessed them with quicken, they take forever to cast. So at a sliver of HP I run in circles hoping the hireling will heal itself and try to raise some of the other dead ones to occupy him, only to see him stop, swing chain and kill 1000k plus bear in about 5 seconds.

    I kid you not;he stops - hit with dagger once or twice then swing until everything is dead or you move away.

    Suggestion:
    See into howlers quills. It shouldn't last for as long as it does. No toon feature stacks and damages like that for over a minute. Shorten it to 10 seconds and let all stacks die if the howler is dead.

    Assassins, add a timer to their attack. If it exists for players it should for assassins. And lower it's ability to pierce armor and crit with it. It's a swinging chain - not a well aimed dagger. It makes no sense that something like that have a greater ability to crit and damage then a massive axe or well aimed dagger.

    Add the possibility of tactics to the end fight. It's a corridor and a square. You run, stop and it flails the chain. I managed to do this quest with my arti - simply because it's ranged. And I'm fairly sure I would manage with a furyshot. But this should be able to be done on EN without specific type of attacks and classes.

    It's simply silly that a well geared toon with lots of PRR can't at least survive the flailing without running away like a little baby. Especially since the hirelings are dumb enough to stand so damn close that they get hit too.

    This is not a terrible quest, but it suffers from the same poor features like so many of the other quests in the chain - those assassins are simply borked in concept and if you make them red named it gets insufferable boring.

    I noticed that even in 'what goes up' - the stormhorn packs end quest. I wasted so much time fighting wave after wave of assassins that 2 healer hirelings almost ran out of SP. Wave after wave of assassins that just stood there and flailed. And if I didn't kill them first everything else would die. And that's a boring feature that takes so much time off your ability to finish each stage on the top of the glaciar. After 25 minutes of doing it I had a head ache (oh, deep purple for the shadow effect is terrible. You can hardly see where you walk even).

    /Rant off

    Please - trim down the silly features please. I find lazy features like that nauseating. See the mass attack in friends in low places and the other on the roof top is okay. It gets frantic, you can swing them down, stun, trip etc and it helps having lots of PRR. But the whole swing and crit its a terribly lazy feature without tactics. It's all about hoping the dumbarse healer finally heals himself and running away since you can't protect yourself against such a boring mechanic. I can't think of a time before I got 2-3 swings in before I had to move out.

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Only experience with these guys is in EE, are they as ridiculous on the lower difficulties?

    On EE I don't think they'd be that bad if their saves were a little lower. They don't have a weak one which is stupid on a rogue.

  3. #3
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    Default I agree

    Yep, I agree those shadar Kai assassins seem way overpowered, even on heroic.
    Went in on heroic hard - so 17th level quest - with 19th level rogue, 17th level hireling cleric and owl bear. Wasn't expecting too much difficulty at 2 levels above quest. Got wiped in first side room in about 10 seconds!. It had several shadar Kai assassins in it, and once they all started chain spinning I didn't have a chance. Not only do they do constant high damage, but I realise they imposed an accumulating penalty to your own damage, movement speed etc. so once you get hit once you're pretty much doomed.

  4. #4
    Founder ellamonster's Avatar
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    Yeah they are a bit OP, they can stack an 80% damage reduction and a 40% attack speed reduction. On heroic normal they are more powerful then the red named bosses.

  5. #5
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    I'm kind of torn on this one, on the one hand I like that they make EH at least a modest challenge when soloing. I've long felt that EH should be harder (there's 4 difficulties, why have three that are basically the same). On the other hand these guys really are out of place difficulty wise. They easily do 4x the DPS of the next most dangerous EH mob in the game.

    Do they break PRR and DR? Is that the deal? I haven't watched the combat logs, but it makes sense based on my observations. If so that does sound like a bug, it's a physical attack, you should get DR/PRR reduction.

    I wouldn't want them to be nerfed too hard for sure, EH is such a snooze usually it's a nice change of pace.
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    not sure about PPR, since that should reduce the dmg, since they are currently (bugged) getting sneak attack damage as well, their current damage is higher then it should be as well. But, tehy do swing it forever (wish my shadarkai could, the CD on it is bad enough but 20sec compared to their constnat usage, ... they should be the same skill whether used by an enemy or a character class)

    But, they do stop if you get away from them, which isnt hard, the trick is to not stand next to them while they are swinging, on EE What goes up, and some of the rooms in Mirror darkly that is an issue since there is either so many or its a closed space.

  7. #7
    Community Member Kerthyn's Avatar
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    Did this one last night and had the same experience. On top of that, when the howlers in the other cages are finally freed they caused an instant dungeon alert Red which harried the party.

    Also how is it possible for two or more assassins ( I've had up to 4) standing side by side whipping around their chains, not get their chains entangled with one another.
    Last edited by Kerthyn; 08-31-2013 at 01:55 PM.
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    Community Member Sarkastik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerthyn View Post
    Also how is it possible for two or more assassins ( I've had up to 4) standing side by side whipping around their chains around not to get their chains entangled with one another.
    LOL, good point, I can't bear this break with realism

  9. #9
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerthyn View Post
    Also how is it possible for two or more assassins ( I've had up to 4) standing side by side whipping around their chains around not to get their chains entangled with one another.
    Practice? :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerthyn View Post
    Also how is it possible for two or more assassins ( I've had up to 4) standing side by side whipping around their chains, not get their chains entangled with one another.
    Probably the same way 6 barbarians can stand side by side and cleave a mob or stand in a firewall cast by a friendly caster. No one seems to complain about that.

  11. #11
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    This seems like a player / class issue.

    Cuz, with the new enhancment pass, I find Shadar Kai agents and most of the new EE quests way too easy....

    If you're failing Epic norm....


    ..............
    Last edited by DynaTheCat; 08-31-2013 at 07:53 PM.

  12. #12
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    Its a tough combo of mob and your class. on a FVS (and I assume any blue bar class) its easy - lay damage down and stay out of his range

    Failing that, find the safe spot and use a bow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scope333 View Post
    Probably the same way 6 barbarians can stand side by side and cleave a mob or stand in a firewall cast by a friendly caster. No one seems to complain about that.
    The big difference is, firewall does damage, even if enemy firewalls are pretty underpowered. But, assassin chains make hirelings dead. Dead dead dead. Nothing else in the game comes even close to the hireling-destruction that the chains do. And, most other hireling-killers you can just call the hirelings away and have easily 50-50 chance of saving the hire. With chains it's more like 5% chance. Not to mention player killing ability: if you don't notice it's an assassin, an undergeared, poorly manually dexterous or otherwise even slightly clueless player ends up as a soulstone. And even a good player with a good toon will quickly die if either not paying attention or just having a traditional lagburst.

    My only run in the mirrror quest I was partying with a guildie and 2 random pug members. Any fight with assassins, the 2 puggers died, pretty much instantly. Then we finished the fight, raised the dudes, continued, and the next assassin killed the puggers. Repeat ad infinitum. For that run it was somewhat hilarious, but killing those assassins on any melee toons does not sound like something I'd really like to do.

    Sure, the stacking of the chains is in tune with the game in general, but the damage output, annoyance factor and anti-melee of the chains is pretty much on par with the other last straws in the other mmo:s that drove people away.

  14. #14
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    I love those mobs, not since rogue mobs got fort bypass have people been too worried about melee mobs and just beat them down. So we have the ogres with the triple rep and now shadar-kai assassins, both with big tells that they going to hurt before you really feel the pain. Honestly, more things like this would awesome.

  15. #15
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerthyn View Post
    Also how is it possible for two or more assassins ( I've had up to 4) standing side by side whipping around their chains, not get their chains entangled with one another.
    How do you fixate on this ^ when the sheer fact that we're in tight confines should make these Chains Useless in the first place?

    When the Devs said that Shadar-Kai were going to get Spiked Chains my thoughts were "Finally - A Ball and Chain" But Nope...What we actually get is a massive Chain with Spikes all along it!


    It's Not just the Shadar-Kai who are doing silly dmg though:

    -Mimic - Acid is Insane!
    -Howler Quills - Just a Joke!
    -Everything seems to do Bleed Dmg on top of this!

    And this is on Heroic Hard! with 2 Lvl 19 Players and 2 Healer Hires! {We did Complete all Flags in Wheloon at the first attempt btw BUT Not at all happy!}.

    I'd hate to see Heroic Elite!

  16. #16
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
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    The new assassins are a great addition to the game. They have a devastating attack that is easy to avoid if you aren't braindead or lagged out. They also are glass cannons. They have trivial HP compared to other mobs. The assassin can't move while swinging his chain. Jump or run away from him. If you're lagged out it sucks, but you're going to die. That's just how it goes. I've not run this quest with a hire yet, but hires are braindead and if you can't find a safe place to park them they're going to die. Hirelings have always been this way.

  17. #17
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92gP2J0CUjc

    Is this what happened to the OP and his hirelings?

    Well ive only tangled with them on EE and EH and the best thing to do when they start whirling those chains is RUN AWAY!!!!!! Get out of the AOE circle round to get em in the back, use whatever half effective CC you got, try and kill em fast , just hope their second lag attack doesnt hit you at the same time.

    Anyway sounds like if you try and stand toe to toe with them even on EN with 300 ppr and 5000 hp your going to get minced . Chains of doom, I can maybe understand chains doing that kind of damage to heavy armoured foes especially if theres a heavy spiked ball on the end, but isn't the Idea of chain weapons to knock you down or entangle you? Whip it around the heavily armoured foes ankles or knees and try and drag him down, then pounce on him and try and slide your stileto through the eyeslits of his helm or other gaps in the armour? In p&p didnt chains five a bonus to trip attacks?
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 09-01-2013 at 10:31 AM.

  18. #18
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    No way man! I just ran Thrill of the Hunt under level on elite (i.e. I on my 15th level Paladin, and a guildie on a 15th level Bladeforged), with no spoilers (didn't research the quest and hadn't run it before) and loved the challenge! I hope they don't make this any easier.

    *Spoiler Alert*
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    We ran into the first group of assassins and wiped in what felt like 5 seconds, maybe. After recovering (with a spirit cake), we went back in, and after a rough start I figured out the trick to fighting the assassins is to keep moving. You can't stand toe-to-toe with them for more than 2-3 seconds, or they'll do their special chain whip attack and take you out quickly. The trick is to keep them moving. Do a couple of swings and then move a short ways away so they have to run after you, when they catch up do a couple of more swings, then move again, etc. You can also audibly hear a chain when they start their chain whip attack, which is your queue to get the heck out of there.

    As for the end fight, that was pretty rough. I was able to get through it by running around the cage in the middle to give enough breathing room to cast a heal or two, buff if needed, then turn for a cleave and great cleave, then run around the cage another turn or two. I just kept doing that until I won. I don't think a cleric hireling could have kept up, though it may be possible to park them down the hall and run their way every circuit of the cage to get a heal thrown on you. Also, it seems like having crowd control in that quest would be really helpful.

    I'm sure when people figure out the tricks to beating this quest, it won't be such a big deal any longer. The #1 thing that the developers should do is increase the XP that it's worth. For the level of difficulty of this quest, I did feel quite jipped with how much XP we got (or didn't get). The XP should be doubled, easily.
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  19. #19
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    Does anyone know what is the nature of debuff that chain applies?

    Can it be removed or is some untyped BS you have to let wear off?
    Last edited by Akoriv; 09-03-2013 at 07:22 AM.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post
    This seems like a player / class issue.

    Cuz, with the new enhancment pass, I find Shadar Kai agents and most of the new EE quests way too easy....

    If you're failing Epic norm....


    ..............
    I can do it just fine on anything ranged and anything with evasion. The issue is to use a melee and a melee without evasion.

    Plus on EN base assassin critters should not be able to just stand there and swing you to dead that easy. 800 HP gone in seconds. Something fundamentally wrong here.

    Add to the effect that you can't do anything tactical to red named. You can't slow them down, you can't trip or stun and the quest in question can have 2 of them. One red named mini boss assassin that drops the final key and then the boss. All fighting you in confined spaces.

    It's one thing to make EH and EE difficult. With hard hitting swings (I really thing there should be a timer for how long and often they can use this OP attack). But on EN?

    But if Turbine insist on keeping it this way I suggest even player assassins can swing it forever. Why not, just break the feature for everyone and see what it does.

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