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  1. #1
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
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    Default Are Rapiers not considered Light Weapons for Tempest Core Enhancements?

    Core ENH #2 "Tempest": While dual wielding can use DEX modifier to Hit with Light melee weapons...

    Core ENH#3 "Graceful Death": While dual wielding can use DEX modifier for damage with Light melee weapons...

    I have a pair of Balizardes that are using STR both for to hit and damage. I thought rapiers were considered light melee weapons. I swapped a feat out for Weapon Finesse, and now I have DEX to hit, but still STR for damage.

    Is this WAI and rapiers are not actually Light melee weapons?

  2. #2
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desdemonte View Post
    Core ENH #2 "Tempest": While dual wielding can use DEX modifier to Hit with Light melee weapons...

    Core ENH#3 "Graceful Death": While dual wielding can use DEX modifier for damage with Light melee weapons...

    I have a pair of Balizardes that are using STR both for to hit and damage. I thought rapiers were considered light melee weapons. I swapped a feat out for Weapon Finesse, and now I have DEX to hit, but still STR for damage.

    Is this WAI and rapiers are not actually Light melee weapons?
    Rapiers were never considered light weapons. If you look at the weapon finesse description it specifically states that it uses dex for to hit with "light weapons and rapiers," indicating that rapiers are not a light weapon but are finesse-able.

    I do think it's silly that tempest gets dex to damage with scimitar but not rapier. Although you can take improved weapon finesse from deepwood stalker tier 2 and be able to use dex for damage with any finesse-able weapon (which is really only rapiers if you already have graceful death).

    EDIT: Just to be clear, improved weapon finesse requires you to have the weapon finesse feat.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desdemonte View Post
    Core ENH #2 "Tempest": While dual wielding can use DEX modifier to Hit with Light melee weapons...

    Core ENH#3 "Graceful Death": While dual wielding can use DEX modifier for damage with Light melee weapons...

    I have a pair of Balizardes that are using STR both for to hit and damage. I thought rapiers were considered light melee weapons. I swapped a feat out for Weapon Finesse, and now I have DEX to hit, but still STR for damage.

    Is this WAI and rapiers are not actually Light melee weapons?
    Rapiers are not "Light" weapons. If you look at a rapier tooltip compared to a light mace tooltip you will notice the rapier does not say 'light'. The confusion arises from Weapon Finesse which allows rapiers to be treated as light weapons for purposes of DEX to hit. Thus a rapier still is NOT a light weapon but is a finesseable weapon. Improved Weapon Finesse in the DWS tree allows Finesseable weapons to have DEX to damage.

    Ack CThru beat me to it heh

  4. #4
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    While the reason has been explained already (Rapiers are considered one-hand weapons, not light weapons), it still makes little sense game-wise. The advantage of a Rapier, at least in PnP, is that it counts as a finessable weapon for the Weapon Finesse feat (thus, allowing you to apply your Dexterity to damage), but it still counts as a one-handed weapon for Power Attack (because light weapons, at least in PnP, cannot get the benefit of extra damage from PA), so it could be used for both purposes. If PA applies its damage bonus to light weapons (those with which you can use Weapon Finesse), then treating rapier as a one-handed weapon for purposes of Tempest enhancements does a huge disservice. It's twice as pointless when you consider that most Drow (Drizzt clones notwithstanding) won't use Scimitars and will prefer rapiers (because of their Weapon Familiarity talents) when going Tempest (which is supposed to be their racial class, as they dropped the idea of Scorpion Wraith), which is counter-productive. Essentially, you'll have to use shortswords with Drow, as they don't get benefits with Scimitars as Elves do.

    The reason why scimitars are treated as light weapons for purposes of Tempest is three-fold: one, because scimitars were treated as light weapons pre-3.5; two, because Tempest combines some of the aspects of the Dervish Prestige Class, which uses slashing weapons and makes scimitars light weapons, and third because Drizzt dual-wields scimitars. I could agree with the first two, but definitely not with the third. Also: Deepwood Sniper's enhancement related to Imp. Weapon Finesse is redundant with the Tempest line, which is something that's...not very common on the Enhancement Pass (aside from ability scores and spellpower lines, mostly). Might as well drop either the two improvements of Tempest or Imp. Weapon Finesse and focus on having one of the trees grant it.

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